Virgin rail 'bullies'

[Clip]

Not if you cannot be sure when you are travelling. Flexibility used to be a major selling point of rail travel, but now it is something you pay an (IMHO) extortionate premium for in many cases. This change of commercial strategy mainly serves to make rail less desirable than private car.

Thats why they have TVMs.. I can imagine that there may be one person or so a year who is in such a rush they make it just before doors closed for some emergency but i cannot imagine it would be many more who cannot use a TVM before they board a train.

 

[cuccir]

But there really should be no need for you to use a walk on fare - you can now buy tickets by various means before you board the train at fares which are a lot cheaper then a walk on fare.

Whilst not wanting to step into the argument too much, that's a little disingenuous: if I found out now that I had to travel to London for the day from Durham (where I am) on Thursday to arrive by 10am, I'd have to buy tickets costing well over £200; if I had to arrive by 9am, it'd be well over £250. Granted, that's less than the anyime fare, which is £287, but we're still in a price range that would be beyond many people's finances.

Now these tickets are priced as such because most people making such journeys at short notice are business travellers: most, but not all. If I was having to make that journey, I'd be priced off the rail onto coaches or towards car hire. Now we can all see the reasons for that, but it's just a shame that people are being priced off rail and onto the roads.

 

[bnm]

BTW is anyone arguing the status quo who doesn't work for a railway company?

I'm simply asking if there are any rail users who aren't its employees who think TOCs offer good value for money for their services. From the attacks on what I've said most appear to come from railway workers - how are they going to be objective on fare pricing and VFM?

Me. But then I do get 1/3 off all my rail travel.....

 

[Clip]

Whilst not wanting to step into the argument too much, that's a little disingenuous: if I found out now that I had to travel to London for the day from Durham (where I am) on Thursday to arrive by 10am, I'd have to buy tickets costing well over £200; if I had to arrive by 9am, it'd be well over £250. Granted, that's less than the anyime fare, which is £287, but we're still in a price range that would be beyond many people's finances.

Now these tickets are priced as such because most people making such journeys at short notice are business travellers: most, but not all. If I was having to make that journey, I'd be priced off the rail onto coaches or towards car hire. Now we can all see the reasons for that, but it's just a shame that people are being priced off rail and onto the roads.

Thats quite true so i may have been, but without stating if thats a return then fair enough the one into london is £143 at this short notice. But you can get one back for 55 though if you leave on the 2100 and if you split or used GC up to york im sure you could get that fare down further..

 

[colpepper]

Rail travellers used to make off the cuff decisions all the time, it really wasn't extraordinary. Take next week, school half term I believe. I might want to travel from Yorkshire to visit friends in London I haven't seen for a while, then go down to Whitstable to catch up on my wife's friends and old student drinking haunts nearby. Then if I had time cut across to my wife's family in Sussex and go on to Dorset, returning via Stafford - more family - and up the west coast before returning to Yorkshire.

If it was simple and cost effective it would be great to do it by train but it would rely on how much time those friends had to hang out, whether some wanted me to stay longer or had things on and the knock on effect between each - normal, real life events changing all the time. As things stand I'd almost certainly drive, much as I dislike driving and would rather use public transport. Turning up and paying shouldn't be freakishly expensive or involve advanced logistics.

 

[Clip]

veery simple and cost effective - thats why they have advanced tickets and for the areas in south you can get your ticekts cheaper with a network railcard

 

[colpepper]

veery simple and cost effective - thats why they have advanced tickets and for the areas in south you can get your ticekts cheaper with a network railcard

You obviously haven't understood the scenario. I could spend a few hours or a few days at any of those locations depending on the convenience to the person visited. How can I book an advance when I don't know any of the parameters or even whether I'll be at each place?

It's not a trick scenario either, it's the kind of thing myself and thousands of others did all the time.

 

[Clip]

You obviously haven't understood the scenario. I could spend a few hours or a few days at any of those locations depending on the convenience to the person visited. How can I book an advance when I don't know any of the parameters or even whether I'll be at each place?

It's not a trick scenario either, it's the kind of thing myself and thousands of others did all the time.

I understand perfectly thankyou.

Well half term is a week is it not? So you would know what day your travelling down from Yorkshire to London so you could plan for that and then you would roughly know when you were coming back from the last destination so you could plan for that.

Inbetween you wouldn't really need to plan as with a network rail card that would still give you cheap enough fares for the most part of yoru travelling.

Whilst admittedly this isnt as practical or easier then using your car - it is possible to get it done quite cheaply.

Anyway this has gone way off on a tangent now and as a member of the railway anything i say will just be knocked back because i work for the railway.

 

[colpepper]

I understand perfectly thankyou.

Well half term is a week is it not? So you would know what day your travelling down from Yorkshire to London so you could plan for that and then you would roughly know when you were coming back from the last destination so you could plan for that.

Inbetween you wouldn't really need to plan as with a network rail card that would still give you cheap enough fares for the most part of yoru travelling.

I was with you as far as knowing what day I'd be going from Yorkshire to London. My petrol costs, not including other running costs would be just over a hundred quid, perhaps as much as £150. Any guess what rail costs between those points might be?

 

[Oswyntail]

Thats why they have TVMs.. I can imagine that there may be one person or so a year who is in such a rush they make it just before doors closed for some emergency but i cannot imagine it would be many more who cannot use a TVM before they board a train.

But the TVM is not going to give me anything cheaper than the off-peak ticket if I am trying to travel on the next train. In this context, advance fares are completely irrelevant

Thats quite true so i may have been, but without stating if thats a return then fair enough the one into london is £143 at this short notice. But you can get one back for 55 though if you leave on the 2100 and if you split or used GC up to york im sure you could get that fare down further.

. Again, IF a traveller knows in advance what his arrangements are going to be then I am sure you are correct. But where, turning up at Kings Cross to travel home, am I meant to find all the information about splitting to help make the decision? And, as for delaying till the 21:00, there is always the question of onward travel.
There is a potentially huge market sector that falls between those who don't care when they travel (because someone else is paying) and those who can guarantee when they need to travel. The only "discount" this sector is given is the "Off Peak", which is sometimes rapacious itself. Saying that much cheaper fares are available is actually not correct.

 

[Clip]

I was with you as far as knowing what day I'd be going from Yorkshire to London. My petrol costs, not including other running costs would be just over a hundred quid, perhaps as much as £150. Any guess what rail costs between those points might be?

I dont think this would ever be cheaper then the car in years gone by though either so its quite a moot point.The car will always offer more flexibility cos you can pick and choose when you want to travel on a whim where as you just cant with a train full stop.That has nothing to do with pricing.

But the TVM is not going to give me anything cheaper than the off-peak ticket if I am trying to travel on the next train. In this context, advance fares are completely irrelevant

. Again, IF a traveller knows in advance what his arrangements are going to be then I am sure you are correct. But where, turning up at Kings Cross to travel home, am I meant to find all the information about splitting to help make the decision? And, as for delaying till the 21:00, there is always the question of onward travel.
There is a potentially huge market sector that falls between those who don't care when they travel (because someone else is paying) and those who can guarantee when they need to travel. The only "discount" this sector is given is the "Off Peak", which is sometimes rapacious itself. Saying that much cheaper fares are available is actually not correct.

Booking office at KX is still open till 10pm isnt it with the side window open until station closes.

EDIT: Im not trying to claim everything is perfect and hunkydory within the realm of ticketing but again, plenty of ways around things rather then just saying 'It cant be done'. Thats fine if even everyone on this forum thinks that, I dont.

 

[bnm]

Rail travellers used to make off the cuff decisions all the time, it really wasn't extraordinary. Take next week, school half term I believe. I might want to travel from Yorkshire to visit friends in London I haven't seen for a while, then go down to Whitstable to catch up on my wife's friends and old student drinking haunts nearby. Then if I had time cut across to my wife's family in Sussex and go on to Dorset, returning via Stafford - more family - and up the west coast before returning to Yorkshire.

If it was simple and cost effective it would be great to do it by train but it would rely on how much time those friends had to hang out, whether some wanted me to stay longer or had things on and the knock on effect between each - normal, real life events changing all the time. As things stand I'd almost certainly drive, much as I dislike driving and would rather use public transport. Turning up and paying shouldn't be freakishly expensive or involve advanced logistics.

And your half-term plans are relevant to this thread, how?

 

[colpepper]

I dont think this would ever be cheaper then the car in years gone by though either so its quite a moot point.The car will always offer more flexibility cos you can pick and choose when you want to travel on a whim where as you just cant with a train full stop.That has nothing to do with pricing.

It does from my point of view because I'd be prepared to pay more to travel by train and not have to drive. The question is how much? The convenience/ inconvenience is worth an additional premium but are we talking a factor of 2, 3, 4? That seems to be what this whole debate rests upon.

 

[Deerfold]

I agree that walk-on rail fares are too high. I'm of a view that we should be encouraging rail travel (as I presume many around here are).

However I don't think that gives people the right to break the conditions of cheaper tickets - that's unfair on those who keep to them - I've often had a long connection which actually got in in time to get an earlier tran and I've waited for the one I'm booked on (and I've changed my plans to suit when I can get a cheap ticket). I'm not rail staff.

I think a lot of the problems in this thread are because these two issues have become intertwined.

 

[radamfi]

To clarify the ticket situation for long distance trips at the end of BR:

For most journeys, there were SuperSavers, Savers and Open Returns, all walk up. In addition, there were Apexes, which had to be bought a week before, and there were also Advance and SuperAdvance fares which could be bought the day before. These were restricted to specific trains like Advance fares we know today. However, they were only available on certain routes and didn't give that much discount so they weren't anywhere near as used as Advance fares are now. There were also SuperApexes on very select routes.

The SuperSaver was by far the main ticket and was unrestricted on almost all routes. The SuperSaver was not valid on Fridays or Saturdays in July/August when you had to get a more expensive Saver.

Travelling to London/Reading/Watford/Stevenage etc. was slightly more complicated as SuperSavers/Savers were not valid on certain peak trains. But the premium for Open Return was nowhere near as big as the difference nowadays between Anytime/Off-Peak tickets. Restrictions were also nowhere near as strict as they are now. The main difference is that if you got a SuperSaver to London, you could travel on any train on the way back. That is a HUGE difference!

The SuperSaver was not price protected under privatisation, meaning that shortly after privatisation, the SuperSaver was either quickly scrapped, or increased quickly almost to the price of a Saver before being scrapped after a few years.

The main thing that is better now is that Advance are now sold as singles, meaning that triangular trips are now far more cost effective, as long as you are mainly travelling on cheap Advance fares. Under BR, the only long distance single of any relevance was the Open Singles for travel to London in peak, which were roughly half the price of an Open Return. For any other trip, you were essentially paying the same for a single as a return.

 

[EM2]

I think you're trying to make it fit your agenda. Shall I root out a few walk on fares and compare them with a fortnight's holiday in the sun?

Please do. But make sure that the holidays you choose have fully-flexible flight tickets that you buy when you turn up at the airport.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

They did introduce saver tickets but they tended to be reductions from Standard fare. There was no £300 type normal tickets, even allowing for inflation. That's all private railway price creepage, giving you what you already had and slapping a big tag on it like it's something special to catch a train without a forward plan. I don't believe many travellers want to book ahead or even, barring a few hot spots and times, that they need to to run an efficient service.

When I had staff priv passes, I got 75% off full fares. When I went to London from Maidstone at the weekend (this was in 1988), a friend of mine got a cheaper walk-on fare than I did *with* 75% off the full fare.
So there *were* £300 type normal tickets

 

[Deerfold]

To clarify the ticket situation for long distance trips at the end of BR:

<...>

In addition, there were Apexes, which had to be bought a week before, and there were also Advance and SuperAdvance fares which could be bought the day before. These were restricted to specific trains like Advance fares we know today. However, they were only available on certain routes and didn't give that much discount so they weren't anywhere near as used as Advance fares are now.

<...>

There were some very good special offers under BR. I remember my first solo trip to London in 1991 when I travelled between Leeds and London for #14 with Y/P railcard - it was more like one of the recent Virgin tickets as it was unrestricted from London but I had to buy in advance and use the 0505 or 0605 train from Leeds. Unfortunately this meant my only connections were the night before and resulted in the first time I spent the night at a station. This was a significant saving on the normal fare.

 

[radamfi]

There were some very good special offers under BR. I remember my first solo trip to London in 1991 when I travelled between Leeds and London for #14 with Y/P railcard

That is £21 without railcard. The SuperSaver return fare would probably have been around £35 in 1991 as East Coast fares had been hiked due to the East Cost electrification.

If you compare that to today, Leeds to London Advance single fares start around £10 so the lowest book ahead fares haven't gone up in 20 years! However, the Super Off Peak Return is £88.60 and the Off Peak Return is £157, with worse restrictions than the BR SuperSaver/Saver. I think that example clearly shows the difference between then and now.

 

[colpepper]

I recall travelling Nottingham to St Pancras in about '78-9 with a student railcard for £6. A few years later I don't think it was more than £12. My gut feeling is apart from promotions and allowing for inflation, travel was between 1/2 and 2/3 current prices with much more flexibility.

 

[RochdalePioneers]

Its the gulf between the cheapest advance fares and the ludicrous full price fares thats become untenable. Setting aside the laughable description of me as a spotter (not for a good 15 years), the potential charge liable if passengers get it wrong could be enormous. Most normal passengers can't see how such a disproportionate extra charge can be valid, which is why this kind of case throws up so much uncertainty in the mind of potential punters. A very large disproportionate charge imposed on you for doing something wrong is a fine. Call it a ticket if you like (Metrolink do so) but its still a fine to the people on the receiving end.

And where did I suggest that passengers should be allowed to travel on any train with any ticket? My argument was specific and simple - that the AP value should be excessed as any other off validity/route ticket would be, and that the benefit of doubt should be applied wherever possible. With respect to the staff upset by the notion that some of their colleagues act like vicious jobsworths when it comes to tickets, the notion exists because some DO that. I've witnessed some of the most appalling acts of customer "service" - I've also witnessed some superb acts of assistance and leniency where circumstances require it. Perhaps its the naked commercialisation that drove this change in mindset.

I also think that some of the aeroplane comparisons are somewhat tenuous. I can turn up at an airport with a ticket for a flight thats just closed and exchange that ticket plus some cash for one on the next flight. Have done so with Easyjet - my ticket retained value because its good customer service for this to be so. What I can't do is stroll onto the wrong plane with that ticket as I can a train. The gatekeeper at the airport is check-in - before the passenger is exposed to the potential cost of a mistake. On the railways the gatekeeper so often is the train guard. The attitude should be "its not valid, I need to upgrade it" not "aha I've caught you defrauding us"

And the elephant in the room is the spiralling cost of running the railways. Hammond bemoans how everything is cheaper to run in Europe. The ludicrous "the company will pay" full fare rates have gone way too far. I have a meeting in Cheshunt tomorrow. Rail travel would require a £260 ticket. Driving will cost less than half that. As a commercial manager I see directly the cost of travel onto my profit figures, and I'm not prepared to hand over that much cash when I can do it far cheaper. Its my decision how to manage my costs - I am "the company" that the railways want to exploit. I refuse to be exploited. I'm driving.

 

[EM2]

The attitude should be "its not valid, I need to upgrade it" not "aha I've caught you defrauding us"

This is where you have a problem, because the guard is faced with two different scenarios where the customer has already used (or started to use) the service.
You argue he should treat everyone the same by excessing the held ticket, in which case the fraudster gets off lightly and the genuine person who has made a mistake gets hit hard.
However, most guards use discretion (as their employers want them to), so that the person who has made a mistake gets the benefit of the doubt. That means that unfortunately, they will sometimes get it wrong.

 

[SS4]

Surely all excessing will do is to enable fraudsters to travel on cheap AP/Off-Peak tickets all the time since they'll pay the full amount whether at the station or to the guard. Net loss = £0.00 whereas the net gain could run into £100s if they're not checked.

The gulf between advance tickets and walk up tickets is ridiculous but it doesn't give you a right to break the byelaw


edit: I've seen people who have gotten on the cross city line without a ticket and more often than not they get away with it because, as long as you don't go to New St, they often get away with it more often than not. I know the scale is different but this is much the same thing?

 

[Oswyntail]

.....The gulf between advance tickets and walk up tickets is ridiculous but it doesn't give you a right to break the byelaw...

I don't think anyone has suggested that. But the situation is ludicrous, and desperately needs addressing.

 

[colpepper]

Perhaps its the naked commercialisation that drove this change in mindset.

I think it probably is.

 

[radamfi]

The ludicrous "the company will pay" full fare rates have gone way too far. I have a meeting in Cheshunt tomorrow. Rail travel would require a £260 ticket. Driving will cost less than half that. As a commercial manager I see directly the cost of travel onto my profit figures, and I'm not prepared to hand over that much cash when I can do it far cheaper. Its my decision how to manage my costs - I am "the company" that the railways want to exploit. I refuse to be exploited. I'm driving.

I hear that so often but some people are clearly paying these virtually infinite fares - but who are these people? Given the difficult economic times, aren't companies wise to this by now?

 

[Zoe]

I used to do day trips to London on a certain intercity route about 10 years or so ago. I would turn up at the station and get a Super Saver and although it would have been cheaper to get an Apex or SuperAdvance I liked having the flexibility and the fare wasn't too expensive. The evening peak restrictions were 16:30 - 18:30 which is nothing like the 15:00 - 19:00 we have today. Since they scrapped the Supersaver and then renamed the Off Peak to Super Off Peak and hiked the Off Peak by 20% I've stopped doing these trips to London. Not everyone can plan their journey in advance and those that want flexibility have to pay a penalty for it.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....And where did I suggest that passengers should be allowed to travel on any train with any ticket? My argument was specific and simple - that the AP value should be excessed as any other off validity/route ticket would be, and that the benefit of doubt should be applied wherever possible.....

But this is something that CAN BE DONE before you board the train. the idea that you should be allowed to bypass the ticket office stroll onto the train and only upgrade when the guard comes round is stupid, pathetic and probably born from people who want really cheap, really flexible tickets and no hassle.

....With respect to the staff upset by the notion that some of their colleagues act like vicious jobsworths when it comes to tickets, the notion exists because some DO that....

Once again, it comes down to the fact that people doing their job correctly are somehow seen as being in the wrong even though it is the passengers who can't grasp a simple concept, or accept the consequences of their actions. Ofcourse, if we don't do our jobs properly we are wrong again, no win situation I guess.

....I also think that some of the aeroplane comparisons are somewhat tenuous. I can turn up at an airport with a ticket for a flight thats just closed and exchange that ticket plus some cash for one on the next flight. Have done so with Easyjet - my ticket retained value because its good customer service for this to be so. What I can't do is stroll onto the wrong plane with that ticket as I can a train. The gatekeeper at the airport is check-in - before the passenger is exposed to the potential cost of a mistake. On the railways the gatekeeper so often is the train guard. The attitude should be "its not valid, I need to upgrade it" not "aha I've caught you defrauding us"....

So, are you are suggesting we should fit barriers on the platform (like on the Jubilee line extension) with RPIs guarding them and making sure you can't get on without a valid ticket?

It would create a few more jobs I suppose, won't help ticket prices though. I'll pass that suggestion on and see where it leads.

Perhaps a more sensible suggestion is that people could sort out their travel documents before they board, like they do for the airlines?

Maybe we could have big banners, with "HAVE YOU GOT THE RIGHT TICKET?" or "IS YOUR TICKET VALID?" printed on them in really big, unmissable letters, above the the platform entrance. Maybe in black on a retro-reflective yellow background?

It does make you wonder if people change their airline tickets before they board because they can, or because they have no choice!?!

....And the elephant in the room is the spiralling cost of running the railways. Hammond bemoans how everything is cheaper to run in Europe. The ludicrous "the company will pay" full fare rates have gone way too far. I have a meeting in Cheshunt tomorrow. Rail travel would require a £260 ticket. Driving will cost less than half that. As a commercial manager I see directly the cost of travel onto my profit figures, and I'm not prepared to hand over that much cash when I can do it far cheaper. Its my decision how to manage my costs - I am "the company" that the railways want to exploit. I refuse to be exploited. I'm driving.

Maybe you should direct that arguement at the companies that continue to pay those fares, rather than the train companies that exploit it? afterall, if the companies don't pay it and find alternatives, the railway will have to act.

 

[colpepper]

But this is something that CAN BE DONE before you board the train. the idea that you should be allowed to bypass the ticket office stroll onto the train and only upgrade when the guard comes round is stupid, pathetic and probably born from people who want really cheap, really flexible tickets and no hassle.



Once again, it comes down to the fact that people doing their job correctly are somehow seen as being in the wrong even though it is the passengers who can't grasp a simple concept, or accept the consequences of their actions. Ofcourse, if we don't do our jobs properly we are wrong again, no win situation I guess.



So, are you are suggesting we should fit barriers on the platform (like on the Jubilee line extension) with RPIs guarding them and making sure you can't get on without a valid ticket?

It would create a few more jobs I suppose, won't help ticket prices though. I'll pass that suggestion on and see where it leads.

Perhaps a more sensible suggestion is that people could sort out their travel documents before they board, like they do for the airlines?

Maybe we could have big banners, with "HAVE YOU GOT THE RIGHT TICKET?" or "IS YOUR TICKET VALID?" printed on them in really big, unmissable letters, above the the platform entrance. Maybe in black on a retro-reflective yellow background?

It does make you wonder if people change their airline tickets before they board because they can, or because they have no choice!?!



Maybe you should direct that arguement at the companies that continue to pay those fares, rather than the train companies that exploit it? afterall, if the companies don't pay it and find alternatives, the railway will have to act.

What's so difficult about the situation Zoe described in the previous post, which obtained for so long? (apart from the fact it stopped a few shareholders becoming as rich as Midas?)

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Do you not understand what supply and demand is? Or are you just trying to provoke an arguement?

 

[colpepper]

Do you not understand what supply and demand is? Or are you just trying to provoke an arguement?

I repeat, why did the system Zoe described become untenable?