Vivarail exports to USA

[Bob Price]

Moderator note: Posts #1 - #12 originally in this thread

One thing that came out with the issues with the 484's is that 230002 has been sold to an overseas buyer! Vivarail has been seriously honest over their issues and the fact they are testing 010 and have delivered 4 out of the 5 bodes well for introduction at some point this year.

 

[Roger B]

One thing that came out with the issues with the 484's is that 230002 has been sold to an overseas buyer! Vivarail has been seriously honest over their issues and the fact they are testing 010 and have delivered 4 out of the 5 bodes well for introduction at some point this year.

Thanks Bob. Can you say who's bought it, and whether / when / where it may be exported?

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

There are or were plans to send a unit to the United States as a demonstrator for Railroad Development Corporation's Pop-Up Metro concept for commuter services on lightly-used freight lines (presentation PDF).

As of October 2020, they were planning two demonstration operations:

Pop-Up Metro is launching the USA in 2021 with a potential demonstration operations
sites in Altoona, IA and central Pennsylvania.
Following the launch, Pop-Up Metro has the potential to bring mobility solutions to
communities that combine:
 Mobility challenges such as traffic congestion
 Willing host railroads interested in increasing the value of light-density freight lines
 Local sponsors in the public, non-profit, or private sectors

 

[DavidGrain]

230002 arrived at the Rockhill Trolley Museum 16th/17th April. Information from their Facebook page. I have not seen any photos of it unveiled yet.

 

[Roger B]

230002 arrived at the Rockhill Trolley Museum 16th/17th April. Information from their Facebook page. I have not seen any photos of it unveiled yet.

Wow! Thanks David. Presumably it left the UK early April - anyone know the actual date? Is it expected to come back soon, or to be there for a while / permanently?

 

[DavidGrain]

Wow! Thanks David. Presumably it left the UK early April - anyone know the actual date? Is it expected to come back soon, or to be there for a while / permanently?

I think it will be there permanently. There is a company registered in the name of Vivarail International Ltd which was registered in February this year. I think one of Viva's financial sponsors is handling this side of the business. The idea is to try to sell these D train conversitons in America.

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

From the Rockhill Trolley Museum's Facebook feed (I don't know if the deep link works: I don't have an account):

The Rockhill Trolley Museum, operated by Railways To Yesterday Inc. is excited to announce that the museum has entered into an agreement with Railroad Development Corporation (RDC) for the demonstration of the Pop-Up Metro system it is developing with its UK affiliate VivaRail. The battery-powered train consists of two remanufactured English Class 230 passenger commuter cars, two motors, each approximately sixty feet long.

The train will be demonstrated for potential customers at the Rockhill Trolley Museum in Rockhill Furnace, Pennsylvania. A building addition is being constructed on the north side of the museum's Carbarn Two to house the train, and to allow it to be demonstrated at its full potential, the museum’s mainline track will undergo rehabilitation, with the replacement of 500 to 700 ties followed by ballasting and resurfacing. The train requires a high level platform, which will be installed.

The demonstration project is expected to last up to three years. At the end of the project, the carbarn addition will become the property of the Rockhill Trolley Museum.

230002 has had a makeover with a new orange/brown/grey livery and orange grab poles. etc.

 

[Roger B]

I think it will be there permanently. There is a company registered in the name of Vivarail International Ltd which was registered in February this year. I think one of Viva's financial sponsors is handling this side of the business. The idea is to try to sell these D train conversitons in America.

Many thanks David. Would it be fair to say that one of the factors behind this is that Vivarail's hopes / expectations for adoption of 230s eg for UK branch lines, are looking increasingly unlikely to be fulfilled? It's difficult to see where the volume of stock they purchased could be used in the UK - especially with GA and TfW fleet plans. Apologies if this has been done to death previously / elsewhere, but there doesn't seem to be that many remaining candidates for the 230s, unless Vivarail can significantly increase their range - eg to cover Middlesbrough - Saltburn / Whitby, Hull - Scarborough, Barrow - Lancaster / Carlisle, etc. That said I'd have thought they might be a good fit for some of the Cornish branch lines - replacing ageing DMUs?

 

[Chris125]

I'll try and put this delicately - are D78 seats the ideal size for the average american? I'm not so sure...

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'll try and put this delicately - are D78 seats the ideal size for the average american? I'm not so sure...

You can fit any seats you like.

 

[Chris125]

You can fit any seats you like.

True, at a cost, but these are the seats prospective buyers will see and sit on. Not sure it's a great first impression for trains which are pretty small by american standards anyway.

 

[D365]

One thing that came out with the issues with the 484's is that 230002 has been sold to an overseas buyer! Vivarail has been seriously honest over their issues and the fact they are testing 010 and have delivered 4 out of the 5 bodes well for introduction at some point this year.

That’s an interesting development, good to see a 230 finally arrive in the US. Wonder if the ”fast charge” truck trailer went along with it.

In any case, I’m glad I got to sample 002 (and 001) when I had the chance!

 

[nlogax]

Great development.. wasn't expecting it! Is this the furthest that ex tube stock has ventured?

 

[37424]

I would regard it as a bonus in that its one less they will try and use over here. In any case wouldn't a pop up metro train in the US more than likely need to be a low level platform train?

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

The Pop-Up Metro concept includes temporary platforms supplied as part of the package.

Pop-Up Metro is an initiative intended to expand the size of the rail transit market by allowing metropolitan areas with existing light-density rail freight lines to establish demonstration operations of a rail transit system on a rapid timeline and for the cost that they might otherwise pay for a consulting study.

Pop-Up Metro will lease trains, platforms, battery charging kit and an integration package, including operating and maintenance regimes.

A Pop-Up Metro demonstration operation, based on Vivarail battery trains, is in the process of being established in the USA and will be operational and available to demonstrate proof-of-concept in early 2021.

An additional benefit of Pop-Up Metro is proof-of-market in addition to proof-of-concept, thus substantially reducing the risk of the traditional approach of building the system first and then seeing if the market exists.

 

[danielnez1]

From the Rockhill Trolley Museum's Facebook feed (I don't know if the deep link works: I don't have an account):



230002 has had a makeover with a new orange/brown/grey livery and orange grab poles. etc.

Looking at the (pixelated) photos, it loos like the unit retains it's Metro-Cammell footplates too.

 

[jamesontheroad]

Another brave attempt to export a British product to serve in a US commuter rail context!

Photo: Huntingdon Valley Station, September 10, 1985. Photo taken from the book The Reading in the Conrail Era, 1976-1998, Book Two by Dale W. Woodland reproduced from Wikimedia Commons here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:HV_leyland_wyc.jpg

 

[37424]

Isn't the US non electrified metro market already served, buy a US assembled flirt job done, 40 year old tube trains need not apply either in the UK or US.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Isn't the US non electrified metro market already served, buy a US assembled flirt job done, 40 year old tube trains need not apply either in the UK or US.

Pretty much, yes, Stadler have that one sewn up.

 

[nlogax]

Another brave attempt to export a British product to serve in a US commuter rail context!

You beat me to this one. I do chuckle knowing some of BREL and Leyland's *ahem* finest work was trundling around dodgy SEPTA metals. With US rail section ends not usually aligning I wonder if the ride was actually better there.

 

[XAM2175]

Isn't the US non electrified metro market already served, buy a US assembled flirt job done, 40 year old tube trains need not apply either in the UK or US.

My understanding is that the Class 230 unit only operates the demonstration services; a permanent operation commissioned off the back of the demonstration would use conventional stock.

 

[37424]

My understanding is that the Class 230 unit only operates the demonstration services; a permanent operation commissioned off the back of the demonstration would use conventional stock.

Well OK but other than flogging a single unit I don't see a lot in it for Vivarail, will the Americans buy 40 year old tube stock for a new Metro scheme I somehow doubt it, plus American crash standards seem to be heavy duty on the mainline not sure about their light rail standards.

 

[edwin_m]

Well OK but other than flogging a single unit I don't see a lot in it for Vivarail, will the Americans buy 40 year old tube stock for a new Metro scheme I somehow doubt it, plus American crash standards seem to be heavy duty on the mainline not sure about their light rail standards.

American light rail standards are roughly in line with European tram-train standards and a 230 would exceed these as it's nominally a heavy rail vehicle in the UK. I guess it would probably run on lightly-used freight lines under time separation, as several LRTs do.

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

I guess it would probably run on lightly-used freight lines under time separation, as several LRTs do.

That is exactly what they are proposing. The Pop-Up Metro presentation (PDF) specifically mentions time separation and gives examples.

 

[37424]

I predict it will about as successful as the UK in other words not very.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I predict it will about as successful as the UK in other words not very.

Fundamentally the product is of poor quality, mostly below the solebar (design and build). That will need to be addressed before any more are sold.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

You beat me to this one. I do chuckle knowing some of BREL and Leyland's *ahem* finest work was trundling around dodgy SEPTA metals. With US rail section ends not usually aligning I wonder if the ride was actually better there.

The big problem it had* was not activating automatic crossing controls due to being so light compared to the average US rail vehicle. Even Budd RDCs (sort of like a 153 built in the style of a 1950s American Diner) had to run in pairs on the line the Pacer demonstrator managed a single trip on.

*= apart from it being a Pacer, that is.

 

[galwhv69]

VIVARAIL LEADS THE BATTERY CHARGE

Battery technology could allow existing DMUs to go emission-free...

www.keymodernrailways.com

Initially to Orbisonia in Pennsylvania
Also, interesting bit at the end of the article:

Mr Shooter says the opportunities are significant, and reports Vivarail is in discussions with an overseas customer about a bid for battery trains for a new 500-mile line which would incorporate 12 fast charge points at stations.

 

[Iliketrains123]

My understanding is that the Class 230 unit only operates the demonstration services; a permanent operation commissioned off the back of the demonstration would use conventional stock.

Vivarail's argument is that a demonstration will be a lot cheaper than a consultant's report (which will inevitably say how expensive a metro system would be). It gives cities an opportunity to try it out for themselves.

 

[edwin_m]

Vivarail's argument is that a demonstration will be a lot cheaper than a consultant's report (which will inevitably say how expensive a metro system would be). It gives cities an opportunity to try it out for themselves.

Also we discussed recently in another thread how much of America hasn't had a local rail passenger service in living memory, and a lot of the population hasn't used one on visits to other cities either. So a demonstration could help build public support and also provide some calibration for these factors in the demand predictions. The concept of a "starter line" has been used quite often in light rail in the States - building a fairly short section at relatively low cost and see how it goes before considering any extensions.