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Voyagers /Meredians

Trainman40083

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Thinking of the various classes, that are 220, 221 and 222. Now we know that the 221s have tilt. But do all three classes have the shame body profile? I was wondering if because some were designed to tilt, whether all were built with the same body shape, leading to limited above seat luggage capacity. Other units that do not tilt, seem to have more space above seats
 
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Snow1964

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Basically yes, the 220 and 221 had same bodyshells, the tilting was additional equipment on the 221 bogies (which is now isolated or replaced by fixed links instead of rams)

The 222 Meridians were built afterwards, same basic design but some equipment was relocated

BR mk4 coaches were also designed to have a tilt option, but no more were built, and tilt was never added to originals.

The main problem with tilting vehicles bodyshell is the reduced space as you go higher up. In very blunt terms they slope inwards so as not to be outside normal profile even if tilt was jammed in max position
 

Trainman40083

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Basically yes, the 220 and 221 had same bodyshells, the tilting was additional equipment on the 221 bogies (which is now isolated or replaced by fixed links instead of rams)

The 222 Meridians were built afterwards, same basic design but some equipment was relocated

BR mk4 coaches were also designed to have a tilt option, but no more were built, and tilt was never added to originals.

The main problem with tilting vehicles bodyshell is the reduced space as you go higher up. In very blunt terms they slope inwards so as not to be outside normal profile even if tilt was jammed in max position
Excellent answer. Many thanks
 

edwin_m

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The overhead racks are unusually small on 22x units even compared with other stock built to a tilt profile - one of many ways the design isn't particularly passenger-friendly.
 

Trainman40083

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The overhead racks are unusually small on 22x units even compared with other stock built to a tilt profile - one of many ways the design isn't particularly passenger-friendly.
I find the responses fascinating, even more so when my small suitcase doesn't fit in the overhead racks. I've seen some people wedge hard plastic cases in. They often look like one holy and out they come hitting someone on the head. Don't like to see that, so I move.
 

zwk500

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Really. How much extra does tilt functionality add to maintenance and running costs?
I don't have precise numbers, but it was enough for XC to lock it off. ANY cost right now is going to be under extreme pressure, and it's just plain common sense that an extra mechanism is going to cost more than not having it. Especially as it also adds complexity into the Train Management Systems (weight sensing to deactivate tilt) and requires trackside beacons (TASS) that have to be maintained as well.
 

hwl

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Really. How much extra does tilt functionality add to maintenance and running costs?
Lots. It adds circa 7.5-8 tonnes per vehicle which isn't good for energy usage whether the tilt is used or not!
The extra diesel usage on the XC 221 fleet is probably ~£3.5m - 4.5m p.a. with zero tilt usage (depending on red diesel price).
 

zwk500

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I think that the real reason is that no-one is willing to design the tilt mechanism for the restricted UK loading gauge for replacement trains.
I'd argue it's not that any manufacturer is refusing, just that they're not prepared to do it for a price any UK undertaking is willing to pay. After all, making the train tilt is the difficult bit. The UK loading gauge isn't so restictive that tilt is a monumental problem - as shown by the fact that the APT, Voyagers and Pendos were able to tilt no problem on the UK network.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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I don't have precise numbers, but it was enough for XC to lock it off. ANY cost right now is going to be under extreme pressure, and it's just plain common sense that an extra mechanism is going to cost more than not having it. Especially as it also adds complexity into the Train Management Systems (weight sensing to deactivate tilt) and requires trackside beacons (TASS) that have to be maintained as well.
I think the only section of XC routes where TASS was disabled/removed was the trial section around Heyford south of Banbury.
All the rest are still in full service on Pendolino routes.
AXC 221s stopped using tilt that was installed on Wolverhampton-Manchester routes.
AXC also stopped any previous Virgin plans to roll out tilt further on the XC network.
It's fair to say that 221s with tilt have lower reliability than 220s without it.
 

themiller

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I'd argue it's not that any manufacturer is refusing, just that they're not prepared to do it for a price any UK undertaking is willing to pay. After all, making the train tilt is the difficult bit. The UK loading gauge isn't so restictive that tilt is a monumental problem - as shown by the fact that the APT, Voyagers and Pendos were able to tilt no problem on the UK network.
Just found the article in March Modern Railways (P25) which covers this subject. To cut it short, changes to the TSI mean that Alstom can no longer supply trains to the UK market and TASS is said to be obsolete, now. This would suggest that starting from scratch with a new tilt system with its regulatory acceptance and a reduced fleet of trans due to some being replaced by HS2trains would be prohibitively expensive.
 

zwk500

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Just found the article in March Modern Railways (P25) which covers this subject. To cut it short, changes to the TSI mean that Alstom can no longer supply trains to the UK market and TASS is said to be obsolete, now. This would suggest that starting from scratch with a new tilt system with its regulatory acceptance and a reduced fleet of trans due to some being replaced by HS2trains would be prohibitively expensive.
Aha, so it's costs :lol:
 

ChrisC

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The overhead racks are unusually small on 22x units even compared with other stock built to a tilt profile - one of many ways the design isn't particularly passenger-friendly.
That’s the main reason why I really dislike travelling on them if going away for a few days with luggage. Terrible design when even a very small case won’t fit on the overhead rack. I really don‘t like having to put a small case in the end of the carriage luggage racks and like to have it close by in view. I’m a bit paranoid about this as about 40 years ago I was once travelling with some friends who had their case stolen from the end of the carriage rack. A small case would be so easy for someone to walk off with very quickly unnoticed.
 

jhy44

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That’s the main reason why I really dislike travelling on them if going away for a few days with luggage. Terrible design when even a very small case won’t fit on the overhead rack. I really don‘t like having to put a small case in the end of the carriage luggage racks and like to have it close by in view. I’m a bit paranoid about this as about 40 years ago I was once travelling with some friends who had their case stolen from the end of the carriage rack. A small case would be so easy for someone to walk off with very quickly unnoticed.
Slightly off topic but I see the new Railjet trains in Austria have these clever locking cables on them in the luggage racks to prevent that exact sort of theft. Genius really. I wonder how difficult it would be to retrofit British Intercity trains with the same tech.
 

Geezertronic

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Really. How much extra does tilt functionality add to maintenance and running costs?
I believe there are also very few places on the UK Railway network where Tilt is allowed - the obvious line allowing Tilt being the WCML (particularly the WCML South) where the 390s and 221s run
 

Railperf

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Lots. It adds circa 7.5-8 tonnes per vehicle which isn't good for energy usage whether the tilt is used or not!
The extra diesel usage on the XC 221 fleet is probably ~£3.5m - 4.5m p.a. with zero tilt usage (depending on red diesel price).
If we are talking fleets, aren't the 221's all 5- vehicles compared to 220's which are 4 coaches?
I don't have precise numbers, but it was enough for XC to lock it off. ANY cost right now is going to be under extreme pressure, and it's just plain common sense that an extra mechanism is going to cost more than not having it. Especially as it also adds complexity into the Train Management Systems (weight sensing to deactivate tilt) and requires trackside beacons (TASS) that have to be maintained as well.
Wasn't the issue for AXC the fact the following:

1. There is hardly any part of the XC network that has TASS enabled except for Stafford to Stoke/ Crewe / Manchester

2. No commercial demand to add TASS to the rest of the route as the costs of improving the infrastructure (TASS balises etc) would be greater than the extra revenue generated by faster journey times, that is provided you could be guaranteed a faster path along the way
It is feasible tilt along the ECML from Edinburgh to Darlington could have been possible. Plus bits of Doncaster to Sheffield and Derby and then south of Birmingham into Cornwall. But that would have created a greater speed gap and pathing issues.
Plus XC does not seem to be deemed a premier route. More an improved regional service. As such the ECML, MML ECML and GWR all seem to be given priorities over paths on those sections of the network. So it seems doubtful any faster timings would have fitted perfectly across the network at those interfaces.
 

irish_rail

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Extending tilt is all very well, but a lot of people do get sick, or at least feel sick on Pendolinos. Extending the sphere of tilt operation wouldn't be good for these people. Tilt is so last century.
 

D365

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Plus XC does not seem to be deemed a premier route. More an improved regional service. As such the ECML, MML ECML and GWR all seem to be given priorities over paths on those sections of the network. So it seems doubtful any faster timings would have fitted perfectly across the network at those interfaces.
I was under the impression that CrossCountry is prioritised on departures out of Sheffield. Not EMR.
 

Wyrleybart

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No, there's 40 x 5-cars and 4 x 4-cars in the 221 fleet.
And there still are, but not the same that were built with it. I am sure "43096" knows but forthe benefit of others Virgin Rail ordered 78 voyagers from Bombardier :
34 x 4 car 220
40 x 5 car 221
4 x 4 car 221 - originally ordered for Holyhead - Euston services

The fleet has changed slightly since then and Virgin West Coast had a uniform set of five car 221s which centre cars from other 221s.
 

Railperf

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Extending tilt is all very well, but a lot of people do get sick, or at least feel sick on Pendolinos. Extending the sphere of tilt operation wouldn't be good for these people. Tilt is so last century.
Tilt Nausea is something I have felt from time to time but not all the time. I think it depends where you are sitting on the train and what sections of route. With regards to the route, I feel it more on the twistier sections north of Oxenhome and north of Beattock especially if I have been looking away from the window. The brain does funny things to you when you look up from a phone or book and suddenly become aware that the world around you is at a weird nine degree angle from what your eyes epect to see.

As for the future of Tilting trains - If we take Italy as an example - there are lots of routes where slightly higher speeds are allowed for tilting trains, but the stock is not most people's favourite because it tends to be smaller and more cramped. The older ETR485's feel very tired now and reports that their tilt mechanisms may be disabled are not verified. The newer ETR600's look nicer from the outside, but are more like a Voyager from a passenger point of view. The swiss versions are my favourite of the lot for interior comfort.

There now seems to be an emphesis on building new high speed lines - as much for capacity reasons as well as tilt. The Adriatic route upgrading is an example of that. In the last 15 years, Trenitalia has been running purely non-tilt stock on an almost hourly basis along the Adriatic, where tilting stock could have cut some time - maybe 30 minutes or so off the journey between Bologna and Lecce. The current upgrading works are seeing non-tilt speed limits raised to 200kph in places and the speed limits along those upgraded stretches of line are the same for both tilt and non tilt stock.

Another example is the route from Rome to Bari and Lecce. Currently it is served by ETR485 tilting trains, utilising their 250kph capability on the 300kph Roma to Napoli high speed line as far as Caserta, but once off the high-speed line, the timings between Caserta and Foggia are barely faster than non-tilt stock.

This is mainly due to the fact that CAserta to Foggia is mainly a single track route with lots of passing places and the requirement for pathing time to allow for passing trains in both directions. The line is busy nowadays as Trenitalia are also competing with Italo who run at least two services a day, plus regional services from Benevento to Caserta and Naples.

Once back on double track from Foggia to Bari, the non-tilt journey times are programmed only a couple of mins slower than ETR485 timings. And from Bari to Brindisi and Lecce , there are no tilt speed enhancements. But here again the future is non-tilt because Trenitalia are building a new route across the mountains from Napoli / Caserta to Foggia, and enhancing the rest of Foggia to Lecce for as much 200kph non-tilt as possible. So the future for tilt in - Italy is very much approaching the buffers too.

I'm not sure anyone in Europe expolited tilting trains for frequency and journey times as Virgin trains did on the WCML. But the Virgin XC part of it never really exploited tilt to the maximum, and in one way that is a shame. it would have been interesting to see what could have been possible using tilt on XC especially as it might possibly have improved speeds in Scotland Cornwall, and on the middle bit from Doncaster to Derby.

It probably never helped the cause that Voyagers only offered 6 degree tilt and that limited the potential speed improvements. And the fact that the market doesn't demand end-to end journey time reductions. London to Glasgow competed with the air market. Penzance to Aberdeen doesn't seem to. On XC, the emphasis is connecting the cities in the middle.
 
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DaveyJones

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Historically, 221142 and 221143 were lengthened by using the middle cars from 221144, with the Cab Cars Stabled at Central Rivers permanently attached to a Class 08.

When Cross Country brought 221144 back into service they donated a vehicle to Virgin to get the correct types of vehicle back. So one of 221142 or 43 has a vehicle from 221136
 

LNW-GW Joint

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TASS is unique to the UK because of our restricted loading gauge.
Tilting trains elsewhere can "tilt at will" on their more generous gauge.
The ICE-Ts used by DB and ÖBB on services between Vienna and Germany use the same tilt mechanism as Pendolinos.
They are key to the unimproved and winding route between Wels in Austria and Nuremberg in Germany via Passau, and also in the Rhine Valley via Koblenz.
But I believe there is no plan to replace these with new tilting trains.
 

D365

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It probably never helped the cause that Voyagers only offered 6 degree tilt and that limited the potential speed improvements.
Does that difference in tilt capability make any significant difference on WCML?
Historically, 221142 and 221143 were lengthened by using the middle cars from 221144, with the Cab Cars Stabled at Central Rivers permanently attached to a Class 08.
A pity that I never saw this!
 

Toby268

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Does that difference in tilt capability make any significant difference on WCML?

A pity that I never saw this!
The voyagers run at a different speed profile due to the tilt being less. That’s about it. Timings are not much different between pendos and voyagers afaik
 

Doomotron

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Does that difference in tilt capability make any significant difference on WCML?

A pity that I never saw this!
57308_&_221144_,_Claycross_(7176503639).jpg
I can't remember where I got the image from or who took it, but I think this is what you're looking for.
 

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