Voyagers or Stadler FLIRT to replace 158's and 159's on SWR /GWR

[Dan15812]

I understand that voyagers can't operate at full capacity along the West of England however they have past their sell buy date with XC and on the west coast.
Being gutted and intensively with South Western will prove to be very popular with the traveling public!

I could also see the new Stadler Flirts (third rail bi-mode) being used with GWR and SWR on regional routes such us:

1. Cardiff - Portsmouth
2. Great Malvern - Brighton
3. Romsey locals
4. Waterloo - Exeter (West of England line in general)

In my opinion 158's and 159's have been fantastic trains but replacement is due in the near future.
Maybe I'm too forward thinking?

 

[greatvoyager]

I understand that voyagers can't operate at full capacity along the West of England however they have past their sell buy date with XC and on the west coast.
Being gutted and intensively with South Western will prove to be very popular with the traveling public!

I could also see the new Stadler Flirts (third rail bi-mode) being used with GWR and SWR on regional routes such us:

1. Cardiff - Portsmouth
2. Great Malvern - Brighton
3. Romsey locals
4. Waterloo - Exeter (West of England line in general)

In my opinion 158's and 159's have been fantastic trains but replacement is due in the near future.
Maybe I'm too forward thinking?

I don't think the 22x would be suitable in all honesty, and most people would probably want something with the comfort of a 158/159. As the units are tapered, they wouldn't be able to match the spacious feel, Stadler FLIRT would be a good shout though.
Would 22x units be cleared fir the line West of Salisbury, as it effectively a single track branch line?

 

[Clansman]

I'd consider that backward thinking, given that there are no Voyagers or Meridians out there that can match the capacity, luggage space, and facilities that the maximum combo of 158/9s offer day in day out.

They are the antithesis of what's required on Waterloo's DMU services.

What benefit does a Voyager/Meridian have over a 158/9 that would render their usage worthwhile on that route?

 

[greatvoyager]

I'd consider that backward thinking, given that there are no Voyagers or Meridians out there that can match the capacity, luggage space, and facilities that the maximum combo of 158/9s offer day in day out.

They are the antithesis of what's required on Waterloo's DMU services.

What benefit does a Voyager/Meridian have over a 158/9 that would render their usage worthwhile on that route?

I agree, the 22x units should stay where they are for now. Replacement of 158/159s should be with brand new stock.

 

[Dan15812]

I agree, the 22x units should stay where they are for now. Replacement of 158/159s should be with brand new stock.

Stadler FLIRT units would be ideal as passengers for feel like they're travelling on an electric train compared to a very noisy sprinters (good for autistic travellers). Also being bi-mode means that they can be third rail operated from Basingstoke and Southampton.
Another great advantage is that they will be more accessible for people in a wheelchair with wide accessible toilets. Overall easier clean and maintain.

 

[swt_passenger]

Would 22x units be cleared fir the line West of Salisbury, as it effectively a single track branch line?

What an odd question. Why wouldn’t they be able to use a route that’s already been used by HSTs, Sleepers, and beyond Yeovil at least 800, 802 etc? There’s quite a few good reasons why they probably won’t be seen at Waterloo but I doubt the single tracking is part of them...

 

[greatvoyager]

What an odd question. Why wouldn’t they be able to use a route that’s already been used by HSTs, Sleepers, and beyond Yeovil at least 800, 802 etc? There’s quite a few good reasons why they probably won’t be seen at Waterloo but I doubt the single tracking is part of them...

I know, but it's not the regular territory for those trains and only used during diverts which usually don't last all that long, I'd imagine using heavier trains everyday would cause bad track wear.

 

[coradiafan2000]

I'd consider that backward thinking, given that there are no Voyagers or Meridians out there that can match the capacity, luggage space, and facilities that the maximum combo of 158/9s offer day in day out.

They are the antithesis of what's required on Waterloo's DMU services.

What benefit does a Voyager/Meridian have over a 158/9 that would render their usage worthwhile on that route?

The only advantage I can think of is they'd maybe be faster (I say maybe as I'm unfamiliar with the line speed).

I'd also personally find them more comfortable. But that's just me.

 

[swt_passenger]

The only advantage I can think of is they'd maybe be faster (I say maybe as I'm unfamiliar with the line speed).

I'd also personally find them more comfortable. But that's just me.

They’d make a slight difference between 90 and the 100 mph which some of the route signalling east of Basingstoke is based on, but couldn’t use their 125 mph anywhere, eg on the entire Basingstoke to Exeter section. Which is a significant reason why they’re completely unsuited to the route.

 

[coradiafan2000]

They’d make a slight difference between 90 and the 100 mph which some of the route signalling east of Basingstoke is based on, but couldn’t use their 125 mph anywhere, eg on the entire Basingstoke to Exeter section. Which is a significant reason why they’re completely unsuited to the route.

I'd assume their superior acceleration may cut journey times a little bit.

I don't necessarily think the Voyagers are the best for this route, but I do think the 158s and 159s are getting on a bit. They'll have to be replaced before long. As long as it's not 800s I'll be fine with whatever takes their place.

 

[Grecian 1998]

As a regular user of the line, replacing 159s with Voyagers would be utterly moronic:

1. 159s have 196 seats per 3 car unit. 220s have 200 seats per 4 car unit. So you'd gain 4 extra seats for significantly greater track access charges.
2. No gangways, meaning an extra member of staff is required for trains working in multiple i.e. currently virtually all of them east of Salisbury and a fair number west of it.
3. No selective door opening meaning doubled up trains can't serve just about anywhere west of Salisbury without significant platform extensions. I'm not sure it'd possible to serve Whimple, Feniton or Tisbury at all without it. Certainly I'm pretty sure 221s are too long to serve the first two.
4. Much heavier trains meaning significantly greater track wear and tear (plus access charges as mentioned above).
5. Smaller overhead luggage racks on a route with a lot of leisure users.

You'd greatly increase costs with considerably less flexibility and effectively less capacity without SDO or platform lengthening, which are expensive. A total failure on all counts.

It's possible you might knock a minute or two off between stations east of Salisbury, but west of it the station calls are too close together to make much impact. Additional selected double tracking e.g. immediately east of Tisbury would make far more difference west of Salisbury in any case.

At the moment there isn't really any train better equipped for the needs of the line than the 159s even if they are getting on a bit, given the need for gangways and splitting trains at Salisbury to reduce costs, and SDO. I suspect a new build bi-mode train which can operate on 3rd rail will replace them.

 

[Energy]

For SWR I would suggest a bimode Aventra, Bombardier offer it and SWR will soon have a large fleet of Aventra units so it makes more sense than having another fleet of FLIRTS, for GWR Flirts could be good.

 

[greatvoyager]

For SWR I would suggest a bimode Aventra, Bombardier offer it and SWR will soon have a large fleet of Aventra units so it makes more sense than having another fleet of FLIRTS, for GWR Flirts could be good.

I think that would be logical.

 

[devonexpress]

I think SWR will likely go with Bombarider Aventra's, GWR will probably look to Hitachi maybe a diesel or hybrid version of the 385?

 

[Energy]

I think SWR will likely go with Bombarider Aventra's, GWR will probably look to Hitachi maybe a diesel or hybrid version of the 385?

I think so to, both already have large fleets of the respective trains so it would make the most sense, GWR could then replace the short HSTs with 5 car 802s.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

GWR could then replace the short HSTs with 5 car 802s.

This would make a lot of sense. Or indeed, why not replace them and the 158s also used on the route with 9 car 802s? GWR could swap them out with the 5/10 car 802s from London duties, meaning there isn’t that awful problem with couplings. There would then be enough five carriage 802s to run a wholly IET run hourly service from Cardiff Central to Penzance.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

^just to be clear here I mean ordering new 9 car 802s. I know there wouldn’t be anywhere near enough now

 

[greatvoyager]

I think SWR will likely go with Bombarider Aventra's, GWR will probably look to Hitachi maybe a diesel or hybrid version of the 385?

That makes most sense in the scheme of things.

 

[devonexpress]

^just to be clear here I mean ordering new 9 car 802s. I know there wouldn’t be anywhere near enough now

More likely order additional carriages to form 9 Car IET's to London with a proper buffet car, proper First Class and baggage/cycle space. Meaning the 5 car 800/802s remaining can be used on Cardiff to Penzance, and possibly with some upgrades to the line Cardiff to Portsmouth. With a 385 type design replacing the 150/158 and 165/166s.

 

[Energy]

This would make a lot of sense. Or indeed, why not replace them and the 158s also used on the route with 9 car 802s? GWR could swap them out with the 5/10 car 802s from London duties, meaning there isn’t that awful problem with couplings. There would then be enough five carriage 802s to run a wholly IET run hourly service from Cardiff Central to Penzance.

Personally I want a fully 9 car fleet of IETs for the London intercity services, 5 cars for where the short HSTs and some 158s because GWR already have loads of 5 cars which could be sent if some sets get extended to 9 cars. Of course 9 cars could also be done if these units were also extended but I think a mix of the 9 cars which come from London and 5 cars which operate on the short HST route would be fine, if there is lads of demand they can always extend the units like the pendolinos were.

 

[devonexpress]

Personally I want a fully 9 car fleet of IETs for the London intercity services, 5 cars for where the short HSTs and some 158s because GWR already have loads of 5 cars which could be sent if some sets get extended to 9 cars. Of course 9 cars could also be done if these units were also extended but I think a mix of the 9 cars which come from London and 5 cars which operate on the short HST route would be fine, if there is lads of demand they can always extend the units like the pendolinos were.

Easier to extend the units they have now, maybe do a software upgrade to the 800/3s to make them 802s, so all the main GWR fleet are Class 802s, and the shorter sets are Class 800s?

 

[greatvoyager]

Easier to extend the units they have now, maybe do a software upgrade to the 800/3s to make them 802s, so all the main GWR fleet are Class 802s, and the shorter sets are Class 800s?

My belief was that because 800s are part of the DfT order they won't be able to be changed to 802s.

 

[Energy]

My belief was that because 800s are part of the DfT order they won't be able to be changed to 802s.

I believe the engines are getting a software update to be faster on diesel, they still won't be 802s though.

 

[Energy]

802s are already sort of maintained at Laira so it would be easier maintainence wise than using 800s

 

[greatvoyager]

802s are already sort of maintained at Laira so it would be easier maintainence wise than using 800s

That's what I thought.

 

[devonexpress]

802s are already sort of maintained at Laira so it would be easier maintainence wise than using 800s

The 800s and 802s are the exact same train, the only difference between them is a larger fuel tank, and a software enhancement to use a larger power output from the engines. The main reason I say convert all the Paddington IET's to 802s is that way any of them can be used right across the network, rather than the current system of havign a designated pool for Paddington to Devon/Cornwall, whilst the rest mostly use 800s.

 

[Energy]

The 800s and 802s are the exact same train, the only difference between them is a larger fuel tank, and a software enhancement to use a larger power output from the engines. The main reason I say convert all the Paddington IET's to 802s is that way any of them can be used right across the network, rather than the current system of havign a designated pool for Paddington to Devon/Cornwall, whilst the rest mostly use 800s.

I agree that should all be 802s but there is a little more on the software side than engines, notice how 800s and 802s can't couple together and work together.

 

[devonexpress]

I agree that should all be 802s but there is a little more on the software side than engines, notice how 800s and 802s can't couple together and work together.

I believe they can work together, it's just for operational reasons they don't. Such as different depots, the fact 800s are not really meant to go past Newton Abbot unless it's to Paignton.

 

[Chester1]

Voyagers would be an expensive and bad replacement for either franchise. Flirts would be a good option for Waterloo - Exeter with the right specification. Capacity at the London end needs to be maximised and having DMUs running over third rail (or under wires) should be reduced, especially in cities. I guess it would be finding the right balance so that capacity can be increased at the eastern end with longer units (doubled up) without providing too much capacity with the single units at the western end. 4-8 coaches maybe?

 

[Energy]

Voyagers would be an expensive and bad replacement for either franchise

Agreed, voyagers have old and inefficient engines

Flirts would be a good option for Waterloo - Exeter with the right specification.

I like flirts a lot, they are great trains, but I could see bimode aventras being more likely as SWR already are getting lots of aventras and GWR have lots of 387s which are very similar to aventras, although GWR could get flirts.