VTEC - new onboard crewing system

[Alan2603]

I travelled up from Kings Cross to York yesterday and there were a lot of complaints about the lack of food (and staff) in First Class.

According to the crew (and the complaints on VTEC twitter), yesterday was the first day of a new system where train crews 'hop on and off' trains along the route. In theory they assist during the busier portions of the journey and then 'hop off' and change to another train to assist during the busier parts of that journey, then onto another train and so on.

Whilst in theory it sounds good, if there is any disruption to the network and the crew 'miss' their next train, it throws the whole thing into chaos (and leaves trains with little or no first class service).

I wonder how long this will last.

Oh, and VTEC guards are no longer 'Guards' but officially 'Train Managers' now. I also noticed the 'train manager' signed off announcements by thanking people for travelling with 'Virgin Trains' where as before it used to be 'Virgin East Coast'.

All very 'West Coast-ish'

Alan.

 

[Suraggu]

I travelled up from Kings Cross to York yesterday and there were a lot of complaints about the lack of food (and staff) in First Class.

According to the crew (and the complaints on VTEC twitter), yesterday was the first day of a new system where train crews 'hop on and off' trains along the route. In theory they assist during the busier portions of the journey and then 'hop off' and change to another train to assist during the busier parts of the journey on another train and so on.

Whilst in theory it sounds good, if there is any disruption to the network and the crew 'miss' their next train, it throws the whole thing into chaos (and leaves trains with little or no first class service).

I wonder how long this will last.

Oh, and VTEC guards are no longer 'Guards' but officially 'Train Managers' now. I also noticed the 'train manager' signed off announcements by thanking people for travelling with 'Virgin Trains' where as before it used to be 'Virgin East Coast'.

All very 'West Coast-ish'

Alan.

Its all part of Stagecoach's grand plan to help pay for that £3 billion to the DfT

 

[SaveECRewards]

Oh, and VTEC guards are no longer 'Guards' but officially 'Train Managers' now. I also noticed the 'train manager' signed off announcements by thanking people for travelling with 'Virgin Trains' where as before it used to be 'Virgin East Coast'.

They've used 'Virgin Trains' in their announcements since late 2015 when they officially dropped the 'East Coast' from their logo. The VTEC run stations with manual announcements also started saying 'Virgin Trains' from that point! No wonder VTWC get people contacting them when they want VTEC.

On a personal level I'm upset the the 18:19 will no longer have a geordie crew. The teams that operated that service were all good and made the first class travel enjoyable. With crew changing trains more frequently I expect a more robotic style of service.

Apparently the 'train manager' has overall control of all the crew now, so as well as the safety critical role and checking tickets they also have to ensure someone has put the curries in the oven!

Here's what the union has to say: http://www.rmt.org.uk/news/delivery-plan--intercity31317/

I tend to agree, these changes do appear to have been rushed in without proper training so many services yesterday were a total disaster as far as first class service was concerned.

There's been other 'enhancements' recently:
- Smaller glasses in first class, I was told this was because they were designed to be easily stackable and so could fit more on the trolley which sounded fair enough, but with staffing cutbacks it'd take too much time going back and forth, plus I'm sure they hope to get through fewer bottles of wine
- A water station in the vestibules in first class - making another element of the journey self service again to reduce the workload and require fewer staff
- Newspapers also left in the vestibule rather than being distributed (but that was always hit and miss even in the GNER days), but what's really surprising I'm sure I saw a sign asking people to return their newspaper! (was I dreaming)
- Smaller biscuits in the first class lounge (they were also trialing disposable cups in the KGX lounge to make them easier to clear away)

Some people have also said the portion sizes have gotten smaller for first class meals but I've always found the sizes variable so don't know if this is cutback or coincidence.

 

[Blindtraveler]

This sounds rather poor and thats on a good day. What will happen to this when the wires come down next time? Chaos will raign thats what.

 

[Marklund]

(they were also trialing disposable cups in the KGX lounge to make them easier to clear away)

Nice and environmentally friendly :roll:

 

[cf111]

- Smaller biscuits in the first class lounge (they were also trialing disposable cups in the KGX lounge to make them easier to clear away)

These have been in the Euston lounge for a while, so I won't be fooled by the "trial" tag.

 

[Hellfire]

I hope they don't think about trying this on VTWC. First Class service is very good at the moment.

 

[Bishopstone]

There seems to be sufficient down time/quiet time, on some runs, for the crews to huddle and gossip for extended periods. Perhaps such opportunities are being rostered-out, using the available resource more efficiently.

Obviously the motivation is cost saving, just as almost every other business, charity and public sector organisation seeks to restrain costs. I struggle to get animated about the slightly higher probability of not receiving the full (free) quota of food and booze. Probably, those who feel short-changed will get a bung if they feel strongly enough to write in.

 

[SaveECRewards]

I hope they don't think about trying this on VTWC. First Class service is very good at the moment.

I believe crewing levels on VTWC are lower anyway (at least they seem to be to me without counting). Certain things they do like having all the meals on a trolley helps speed up the west coast service, but VTEC have hot food all day which is fetched from the kitchen this is more staff intensive but I hope it continues.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Nice and environmentally friendly :roll:

TBH I think it's time for a strict ban on disposable cups for eating/drinking in at restaurants of all kinds. There is no need, it is wasteful etc. A deposit can always be charged if necessary e.g. for McD's (at least one European country uses reusable plastic cups in McD's).

Indeed, talking of McD's, as their stuff is now made to order, there is little argument for not serving the food on a reusable plate either.

It particularly annoys me when Starbucks, Costa etc go "do you mind having it in a paper cup"? Yes, I do mind, it's pointless waste and cheapens the experience just so you don't have to be bothered loading the dishwasher.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Iv rather gone off chain coffee shops anyway but Id have thought the ones which are paper/cardboard are recyclable anyway?

I do still use SSP outlets at stations but if theres a decent independant around il use it.

 

[Crossover]

Not sure it's working. On the 1930 Kings Cross to Bradford F.S. (1D30) and the 'TM' said due to lack of crew, there would be no trolley. Later said to 'bear with us' as there were 'only 3 of us onboard' (TM, one on buffet, one in First?)

Done nearly every VTEC shack going - he hurriedly announced Grantham when in the platform, Newark didn't get a mention at all and we only skip Retford. Doncaster next and I've not so much as seem the 'TM' let alone had a ticket check! We are running RT at least though

 

[Darandio]

Iv rather gone off chain coffee shops anyway but Id have thought the ones which are paper/cardboard are recyclable anyway?

This was the subject of a programme on the BBC a while back (War On Waste?) whereby it turned out that only the outer sleeve was recyclable and virtually nothing from the actual cup was.

Edit*

Here is a clip... http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p042vh8b

Hugh finds out that standard takeaway coffee cups are almost impossible to recycle because of the way they're made.

 

[Iskra]

This was the subject of a programme on the BBC a while back (War On Waste?) whereby it turned out that only the outer sleeve was recyclable and virtually nothing from the actual cup was.

Edit*

Here is a clip... http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p042vh8b

Slightly out of date that now; Costa recycles takeaway cups (from any brand) and gives a 25p discount to customers who use a reusable cup.

 

[Darandio]

Slightly out of date that now; Costa recycles takeaway cups (from any brand) and gives a 25p discount to customers who use a reusable cup.

It's only out of date if all major retailers are doing it. Are they?

 

[Iskra]

It's only out of date if all major retailers are doing it. Are they?

The assertion that 'standard takeaway cups are impossible to recycle' is out of date, because the biggest coffee company in the country have found a way to recycle theirs and their competitors cups.

'It's only out of date if all major retailers are doing it.' That is your opinion and nothing more.

 

[Jonfun]

Not sure it's working. On the 1930 Kings Cross to Bradford F.S. (1D30) and the 'TM' said due to lack of crew, there would be no trolley. Later said to 'bear with us' as there were 'only 3 of us onboard' (TM, one on buffet, one in First?)

Done nearly every VTEC shack going - he hurriedly announced Grantham when in the platform, Newark didn't get a mention at all and we only skip Retford. Doncaster next and I've not so much as seem the 'TM' let alone had a ticket check! We are running RT at least though

And if anybody writes in and complains, it'll no doubt be the TM who gets grief off management for having the audacity to not be everywhere at once!

 

[northernchris]

A couple of weeks ago I travelled Leeds-London in First Class on an afternoon journey, and there were 3 hosts although one was only handing out the hot food. There was no trolley in standard, and the 2 hosts coped fine which made me wonder at the time why 3 are required as one could have manned the trolley service in standard. So there are journeys where staffing could be reduced, without the need for hopping on and off throughout.

 

[LowLevel]

No doubt hop on/off will lead to the same farce as on Southern with on board supervisors chasing their trains around the network as they left without them to avoid a short delay. What a way to run a railway.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I am an irregular and somewhat reluctant VTEC customer at the best of times but this doesnt exactly insentivise me to travel with them, particularly as this smacks of majoe pennypinching and yet tickets are still rather expensive? I think even your average passenger wil notice this fars!e

 

[Crossover]

And if anybody writes in and complains, it'll no doubt be the TM who gets grief off management for having the audacity to not be everywhere at once!

Quite! No ticket check at all in the end

 

[SaveECRewards]

Quite! No ticket check at all in the end

I don't see how the train manager is supposed to be able to check tickets on a moderately busy train while managing the first class service and of course doing the guard duties.

I wonder if National Express (NXEC) had planned the cutbacks in the same way if they had continued to run the service, after all they were the franchise that wanted to gate every station (East Coast took over and scrapped the plans to gate York) which gave the impression they were going to reduce ticket checks on-board.

Of course barriers are terrible at revenue enforcement for long distance services, if you knew there was very little chance of being checked and you were going (for example) London-Newcastle you could open the gates at KGX with your travelcard and then buy a ticket Manors-Newcastle to open the barriers at NCL. If you did get caught on the train you'd have to pay for the full fare ticket and if they could prove you were evading the fare you could get a criminal record so I'm not advocating this I'm just using it as an example of why proper ticket checks matter.

 

[Crossover]

I don't see how the train manager is supposed to be able to check tickets on a moderately busy train while managing the first class service and of course doing the guard duties.

I wonder if National Express (NXEC) had planned the cutbacks in the same way if they had continued to run the service, after all they were the franchise that wanted to gate every station (East Coast took over and scrapped the plans to gate York) which gave the impression they were going to reduce ticket checks on-board.

Of course barriers are terrible at revenue enforcement for long distance services, if you knew there was very little chance of being checked and you were going (for example) London-Newcastle you could open the gates at KGX with your travelcard and then buy a ticket Manors-Newcastle to open the barriers at NCL. If you did get caught on the train you'd have to pay for the full fare ticket and if they could prove you were evading the fare you could get a criminal record so I'm not advocating this I'm just using it as an example of why proper ticket checks matter.

TM probably couldn't!

I travelled down in GC this morning but the barriers were open when we arrived. Tonight, we boarded the train via the bridge part way down the platform and the barriers were open. No ticket check and as one would expect (at most times of day) the barriers were open at Wakefield (don't understand why they are there - not very often that they're in use when I'm there!)

 

[47271]

NXEC made First Class so expensive that there was noone in there to worry about whether the service was working or not.

 

[SaveECRewards]

NXEC made First Class so expensive that there was noone in there to worry about whether the service was working or not.

First Class open and other flexible tickets seemed to rise sharply sometime after GNER overbid on their franchise in 2005 this was the point when I decided it was worth buying advance tickets when possible and give up the flexibility I used to value so much about rail travel.

But I seem to remember lots of decently priced 1st Advance tickets with NXEC and as an escape (their loyalty scheme) member you got 20% off online bookings rather than 10%. I never recall 1st being particularly quiet in the NXEC days even though the service quality was sliding. So in addition to the normal fare rises over the years we gradually lost the web discount (East Coast changed it from 10% to 'up to 10%' and so often was 2% before VTEC abolished it) plus the Rewards scheme giving you free tickets which means you are now paying more and getting less.

Although personally I'll be happy if they manage to arrange it so they wipe out some inefficiencies in the roster (there are some trains where they're overstaffed as they're generally quiet, but then again other trains have a crew member missing and they can't run the standard trolley) but still retain a service that's more or less what we've come to expect. They made an improvement last year with the James Martin menus making the full breakfast available until 11 and the hot food option available all day while still keeping the chef prepared evening meal services. I always thought the chef prepared evening meals would be one of the first things for the chop (the west coast evening meal offering is rubbish by comparison) but fortunately they've stayed so far and it's one of the best items of the current service. It'll probably take some time to settle down, feedback from the crew and customers what is and is not working and then they refine it before we can say for certain it's a bad thing (but I doubt it'll bring any improvements, just minimise the visibility of the cutbacks).

TLDR: although this is cost cutting, if they've found inefficiencies and are working on minimising the impact on the customer then this may be fine we need to give it a few months to see how it's refined and it settles down. Feedback to VTEC any experiences good or bad.

 

[xotGD]

Some services will inevitably appear to be overstaffed since for every crew member heading south, the same number have to work back north again (and vice versa). Unless crews split shift and spend 8 hours drinking tea at King's Cross I can't see how you can avoid this.

 

[SteveP29]

I've irregularly travelled first class Edinburgh- London (usually once a year with the points I'd managed to save with East Coast Rewards) and have noticed that since Virgin took the franchise, the service and 'complimentaries' have become poorer and poorer.
No alcohol as a choice (if you want it, you have to go to the food bar and buy it)
Meal choice is pretty poor, cooked breakfasts (bacon sandwiches etc) have never been on.
Very little variation on the meals (usually a choice of 2 and neither hot)
Now we are getting disposable cups for tea and coffee (more in them, but it just smacks of cheapness)
After my last experience of it in December, I said to my partner that the only advantage of travelling first class on VTEC is the wider seat and more legroom.

 

[SteveP29]

I was also in first class and got stuck at Carlisle during storm Desmond while travelling from Edinburgh to Newcastle (the Tyne Valley diversions were on)
We sat at Carlisle for 90 minutes whereby the tea trolley came around about 10 minutes after we arrived in Carlisle and wasn't seen again for the whole journey.
I don't think customer service at VTEC understood what I was telling them that the complimentary service wasn't seen for nearly 3 hours

 

[DarloRich]

This was the subject of a programme on the BBC a while back (War On Waste?) whereby it turned out that only the outer sleeve was recyclable and virtually nothing from the actual cup was.

Edit*

Here is a clip... http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p042vh8b

Slight alteration - It is possible to recycle the cup but it isnt really cost effective and there are only a few plants in the country that can/bother to. The chain shops (perhaps on the back of these reports) are moving to an alternative but slowly and with little grace!

I notice Costa have started saying they can recycle these cups. Perhaps they have bought up the all of the capacity in the market to recycle these items or have seen a business opportunity.

Anyway, not much to do with VTEC first class crewing. In cattle class we are well accustomed to no trolley, paper cups and no free food. Welcome to the world of the pleb!

 

[Blindtraveler]

Whilst First is a rarity and a treat for me, a bit like Darlo above I would be sorely upset if Id paid for something that I didnt get.

As Crossover points out upthread the train manager has also been given a bit to much to manage by the sound of it.