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WAG Express

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merlodlliw

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I'm in agreement on all of this including the WAG trains being an extravagance.

However your previous posts DO often come over as anti-ATW, in areas that they can't really be blamed for: ie happily accepting feeding out of the big trough that WAG provide, and not providing the ideal stock either because of lack of timescale (which clearly seems to be WAG's fault in this case) or lack of available spot-hire stock.

I believe if it had gone via Crewe the plan was to use the other LHCS set. However persons thought they knew better and pushed for it to go via Wrexham despite lack of paths due to the single line working Chester-Wrexham. That's resulted in the situation we have now, which is a right bodge.

However if you were ATW surely you'd happily take the money and stuff it in the bank? It's the WAG that really are wasting money here.

No I dont blame ATW for taking the money, it must have been pennies from heaven dealing with such naivety from a Minister.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Apparently there's a big sweetie shop full of spare 158's just waiting to be picked!

I was about to respond to you, give me an opportunity to research if there are any 158 or similar for hire or loan. As for my opinion of ATW, a lot of the problem lies in the land of leather, out of Pentaith House I have a lot of regard for ATW staff.
 
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jones_bangor

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To draw this to a conclusion, I will accept the previous WAG Minister for transport had an agenda of his own making especially WAGAIR, and I have yet to meet anyone outside of the statutory sector who considers this money well spent, in fact is own party voted against.

Well to be fair to him, he did commission the sidings upgrade at Wrexham to facilitate the WSMR service.

As for WAG EXPRESS1"Gerald" the new WAG have only a couple of months to decide whether this train continues or not, I am aware ATW are banging on the door for a decision & my A.M (Mark Isherwood) informs me he will put down questions in the Senedd about this service,I am all for extra rail services, but consider the little used Premier class is an extravagance,

An extravagance, maybe, but it is the most convenient way of getting to Cardiff early in the morning from North Wales . Of course we know that we in Wales don't deserve first class!! Were Gerald 1 to go, another service would have to be provisioned to replace it...... These decisions were made round a cabinet table - a cabinet dominated by Labour lest you forget!! The "One Wales" agenda was not just Plaid Cymru's creation!!

following the discovery by myself that this train was to be routed via Crewe,as per the application by ATW to the ORR,plus running direct Llandudno Junction to Chester, I informed Wrexham Council and Various A,Ms & M.Ps, which caused the Minister to change his plans, and in haste again for Political gain get a stop gap, the 175 which started on Monday via Wrexham & calling at more stations. The problem being the Minister in his haste sanctioned a well used Birmingham service via Wrexham to be diverted via Crewe to give WAG2 a path,so in effect Wrexham gained no extra service,no consultation was allowed about killing off the Birmingham service via the Dee/Seven line.

So it's your fault......not IWJ's!!!!

But seriously....what was your position on the First Class on WSMR? Was that an extravagance? Was WAG / ATW trying to live up to their offering?

Personally, I think First Class on WAG 1 & 2 should be £10 supplement with free pretzels and a glass of wine.....
 
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merlodlliw

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Well to be fair to him, he did commission the sidings upgrade at Wrexham to facilitate the WSMR service.

As deputy first Minister,he did commission Network Rails sidings,however his predecessor was responsible for getting NR the funding.



An extravagance, maybe, but it is the most convenient way of getting to Cardiff early in the morning from North Wales . Of course we know that we in Wales don't deserve first class!! Were Gerald 1 to go, another service would have to be provisioned to replace it...... These decisions were made round a cabinet table - a cabinet dominated by Labour lest you forget!! The "One Wales" agenda was not just Plaid Cymru's creation!!

No other service would have to be provisioned to replace WAG1,the service is not run as a requirement of ATWs franchise, it is run as a semi open access
service paid for by WAG at over £2M a year using non franchise hired in stock. a Two hourly service to Cardiff is sufficient in my opinion,


So it's your fault......not IWJ's!!!!



But seriously....what was your position on the First Class on WSMR? Was that an extravagance? Was WAG / ATW trying to live up to their offering?

Ieuan Wyn Jones openly stated he wished to imitate W/S in Wales, as far as 1st class on W/S it was provided at no cost to the taxpayer unlike Gerald,I would have no qualms if Gerald was not subsided by the taxpayer.

Personally, I think First Class on WAG 1 & 2 should be £10 supplement with free pretzels and a glass of wine.....

There is a difference in providing a first class service, as opposed to a Premier class service with travelling Chief, all that is required is a good buffet.

I note you don't mention WAGAIR, are you a supporter.

Bob
 

1V53

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There is a difference in providing a first class service, as opposed to a Premier class service with travelling Chief, all that is required is a good buffet.

I note you don't mention WAGAIR, are you a supporter.

Bob

What's wrong with travelling Chief's? ;)
 

tbtc

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An extravagance, maybe, but it is the most convenient way of getting to Cardiff early in the morning from North Wales . Of course we know that we in Wales don't deserve first class!!

Given that there was already a bi-hourly service running, there was a direct rail link before Gerald...

...still, I'm interested in why you think the political train for the leader of Plaid Cymru deserved First Class when ATW don't run First Class on any other train. One rule for the political class and another for the rest?
 

Greenback

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It's not so much that North Wales doesn't deserve first class, but why doesn't anywhere else in Wales deserve it? At least on one or two trains?
 

tbtc

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It's not so much that North Wales doesn't deserve first class, but why doesn't anywhere else in Wales deserve it? At least on one or two trains?

Exactly. Why just one train a day for Politicians (Chef for First Class, "Let Them Eat Cake" for the rest), why no First Class on the Cambrian line? Why not try to improve services across Wales (even the areas which don't have Plaid Assembly Members)?
 

1V53

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Nothing against the highest paid member of staff on the train, I just don't think the service of a highly paid Chef is required when reports of little use of Premier class are received.



Bob

Staff in standard class can and do order food from the buffet car. If you actually travel on the morning service you may be surprised.
 

merlodlliw

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Staff in standard class can and do order food from the buffet car. If you actually travel on the morning service you may be surprised.

Yes I am aware the workers can get food from the buffet car, that's all that is required in my opinion. And of course the vast majority in standard that boarded along the coast have detained by Chester & Crewe I have noted from personal experience.

Not one word from anyone yet about the excitement of travel on WAG2 after five days. The refurbed 158 had more people interested,



Bob
 
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cymro inside

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well merlodlliw, i watched your mate Isherwood ask your question in the senedd the other day(the wording about two trains to Cardiff leaving Holyhead within 15 minutes of each other(blindly ignoring the fact that by Rhyl the time difference is 50 minutes) and he received a put down from Carwyn along the lines of "you would think the member would welcome any improvements to services,apparently not so!" the whole point of lhcs and First Class from North to South Wales is that the journey from Bangor is 4 hours or more.Milford Haven is Less than 3 hours and Carmarthen less than 2,4 hours is a long time on a 175 let alone a 158(ive even suffered a 150 on this run) as for the airlink wasnt it Darren Millar of the tories who wanted it to run from Liverpool to Cardiff? as I have said before this train is a useful addition to the train services from the busiest and biggest revenue generating station in the North..Bangor.wag 2 connects at Chester in to the 0935 chester-euston and provides a high quality fast connection from Bangor, so wag trains bring benefit to the whole network(not to mention at least 16 extras jobs at Holyhead)
 

1V53

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It does not have to be a Chef on over £50K a year to cook a bacon sandwich in a buffet car,
W/S never used a Chef.

Bob

Where on earth do you get 'a chef on over 50k a year'? I think you will find there are two chefs working a shift system (work the hours out otherwise), so I suspect on £25k each but working 16 hour days on a rota system (otherwise one would be on an 80 hour week every week)...

They also have to shop for the ingredients (for a fully prepared from scratch and cooked meal: I think you are being very insulting or showing complete ignorance saying all they cook are bacon sandwiches) on top of those hours.

But hey why let facts get in the way!
 

merlodlliw

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Where on earth do you get 'a chef on over 50k a year'? I think you will find there are two chefs working a shift system (work the hours out otherwise), so I suspect on £25k each but working 16 hour days on a rota system (otherwise one would be on an 80 hour week every week)...

They also have to shop for the ingredients (for a fully prepared from scratch and cooked meal: I think you are being very insulting or showing complete ignorance saying all they cook are bacon sandwiches) on top of those hours.

But hey why let facts get in the way!

A lot of Chefs earn over £50K, the Chef on the WAG1 last year from the Celtic Manor who was used for the special run from Cardiff to Holyhead when ATW had special invited guests to sample the food, earns well over £80K.

All I was saying was,with a buffet & that is all that is required ,does not require a fully trained chef to cook a bacon sandwich, current a chef on Gerald does cook a bacon sandwich if requested, I am well aware that two chefs work the run,that will cost ATW well over £50K to £60K PA minimum for the Chef service for the five days.
I am not ignorant or insulting to anyone & I did not say all they cook were bacon sandwiches, there is no requirement in my opinion for the premier service whatsoever, it is pure extravagance at taxpayers expense.

Bob
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
well merlodlliw, i watched your mate Isherwood ask your question in the senedd the other day(the wording about two trains to Cardiff leaving Holyhead within 15 minutes of each other(blindly ignoring the fact that by Rhyl the time difference is 50 minutes) and he received a put down from Carwyn along the lines of "you would think the member would welcome any improvements to services,apparently not so!" the whole point of lhcs and First Class from North to South Wales is that the journey from Bangor is 4 hours or more.Milford Haven is Less than 3 hours and Carmarthen less than 2,4 hours is a long time on a 175 let alone a 158(ive even suffered a 150 on this run) as for the airlink wasnt it Darren Millar of the tories who wanted it to run from Liverpool to Cardiff? as I have said before this train is a useful addition to the train services from the busiest and biggest revenue generating station in the North..Bangor.wag 2 connects at Chester in to the 0935 chester-euston and provides a high quality fast connection from Bangor, so wag trains bring benefit to the whole network(not to mention at least 16 extras jobs at Holyhead)

I am delighted he asked the question, I will get the full report from him. Darren Millar asked "If we have to have an air service from Anglesey to Cardiff at taxpayers expense
why can it not call at Hawarden to also serve North East Wales"
 
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1V53

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A lot of Chefs earn over £50K, the Chef on the WAG1 last year from the Celtic Manor who was used for the special run from Cardiff to Holyhead when ATW had special invited guests to sample the food, earns well over £80K.

All I was saying was,with a buffet & that is all that is required ,does not require a fully trained chef to cook a bacon sandwich, current a chef on Gerald does cook a bacon sandwich if requested, I am well aware that two chefs work the run,that will cost ATW well over £50K to £60K PA minimum for the Chef service for the five days.
I am not ignorant or insulting to anyone & I did not say all they cook were bacon sandwiches, there is no requirement in my opinion for the premier service whatsoever, it is pure extravagance at taxpayers expense.

Bob
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I am delighted he asked the question, I will get the full report from him. Darren Millar asked "If we have to have an air service from Anglesey to Cardiff at taxpayers expense
why can it not call at Hawarden to also serve North East Wales"

Yes some chefs earn 80k, I'm sure many others earn under 20k. I know managers who earn 100k plus, I also know others who earn under 20k, so you need to get your facts straight Bob and stop casting sensational but erroneous figures about.

Whether it's an extravagance is a valid point, but please let's not falsify figures to make a point.
 

Rhydgaled

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Where on earth do you get 'a chef on over 50k a year'? I think you will find there are two chefs working a shift system (work the hours out otherwise), so I suspect on £25k each but working 16 hour days on a rota system (otherwise one would be on an 80 hour week every week)...

They also have to shop for the ingredients (for a fully prepared from scratch and cooked meal: I think you are being very insulting or showing complete ignorance saying all they cook are bacon sandwiches) on top of those hours.

But hey why let facts get in the way!

I think what merlodlliw meant was there is no point provide a level of service that requires staff to cook anything more fancy than a bacon sandwich. The fact is the current level of service that is provided requires an expensive chef, I think merlodlliw means the service should be reduced so the chef isn't needed, and if so I think I agree. If a cheaper member of staff can stick some pub grub in a microwave* that would do me fine (but on the current LHCS evening service it's too early for that anyway if you de-train at Crewe like I did when I used the service (was headed for Liverpool)).

As for first class, it depends how much ticket revenue you get. If not enough passengers use it, refit the buffet car to have standard class seats instead.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
*Fish and chips for me please, even better if you use suppliers that source their fish and potatoes from the UK (the fish doesn't have to be cod, I tried some other fish breaded once (pollock I think it was), couldn't taste the difference)).
 

Squaddie

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If a cheaper member of staff can stick some pub grub in a microwave* that would do me fine...
But there are some people who appreciate something more than a microwaved ready-meal, and who are prepared to pay for it. Why should our railways only cater for the bargain-hungry crowd?
 

merlodlliw

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Yes some chefs earn 80k, I'm sure many others earn under 20k. I know managers who earn 100k plus, I also know others who earn under 20k, so you need to get your facts straight Bob and stop casting sensational but erroneous figures about.

Whether it's an extravagance is a valid point, but please let's not falsify figures to make a point.

The Chefs on Gerald will cost ATW X 2 at a minimum of £25K each well over £60K with add on charges,PA,

Bob
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I think what merlodlliw meant was there is no point provide a level of service that requires staff to cook anything more fancy than a bacon sandwich. The fact is the current level of service that is provided requires an expensive chef, I think merlodlliw means the service should be reduced so the chef isn't needed, and if so I think I agree. If a cheaper member of staff can stick some pub grub in a microwave* that would do me fine (but on the current LHCS evening service it's too early for that anyway if you de-train at Crewe like I did when I used the service (was headed for Liverpool)).

As for first class, it depends how much ticket revenue you get. If not enough passengers use it, refit the buffet car to have standard class seats instead.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
*Fish and chips for me please, even better if you use suppliers that source their fish and potatoes from the UK (the fish doesn't have to be cod, I tried some other fish breaded once (pollock I think it was), couldn't taste the difference)).

Thats my point well put.

Bob
 

jones_bangor

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I note you don't mention WAGAIR, are you a supporter.
What's worth mentioning about a small propeller airplane - more Cesna than 747!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The Chefs on Gerald will cost ATW X 2 at a minimum of £25K each well over £60K with add on charges,PA,

Hang on, you said they were on £50k each a few posts back......

Anyway, sounds like Carwyn Jones is indeed supportive of Gerald, doesn't look like the service is in much peril....and rightly so! As I said before - One Wales was a Plaid - Labour joint document! And Labour aren't stupid enough to undo all that was achieved under that - they may be looking for coalition partners again sometime!!
 

Bakers1970

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The Chefs on Gerald will cost ATW X 2 at a minimum of £25K each well over £60K with add on charges,PA,

Bob
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Thats my point well put.

Bob

I have read this with some interest and must say I am disappointed to see the on board chef's copping the flak due to the cost of running the express service. As a railway worker who has worked closely with the chefs in question I find I must reiterate what the service was meant to provide.

A premier 1st class Service offering a first class service
Freshly prepared meals NOT 'ping' dinners as per some other TOC's ideas.

Now I am not ignoring the fact that 'Yes' the costs are higher but the service provided are First Class. In this day and age of cuts and job losses I would have expected these hard working chef's and on board staff to be praised not hung to dry over costs!!! Remember these guys work a 16hr day which as previously mentioned includes service/ Meal prep and fresh food sourcing in their downtime at Canton.

After what happened with WSMR this fast fading type of service needs as much support as possible.

Incidently, having travelled this service from both Holyhead and Canton There is public support from both ends of Wales.
[/LIST]

 

1V53

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Well said. To me this train sets the standard of what trains should be: what they used to be. Times change, not for the better, but instead of kicking this initiative it would be nice to see so called enthusiasts enthusing over it, not slating it.
 

jones_bangor

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Incidently, having travelled this service from both Holyhead and Canton There is public support from both ends of Wales.

Absolutely! I think the vociferous antis are in the minority. I think the present WG administration see this too!

It's very sad that some people seem to actively want to see this service fail.
 
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Rhydgaled

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Well said. To me this train sets the standard of what trains should be: what they used to be. Times change, not for the better, but instead of kicking this initiative it would be nice to see so called enthusiasts enthusing over it, not slating it.

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of an express service linking north and south Wales, and I think the LHCS stock on WAG1 is the right tool for the job (except for not having a DVT/DBSO, if it did it'd probablly be going via Wrexham). If such a train came my way I'd have been out to photograph it and probablly used it many more times, it is miles better (to look at, but better to travel on too) than those boring, bland, 175s with their rock hard seats (I still haven't been on a refurbished set though, so maybe they've fixed that).

I'm just not sure whether the expense of the chef is justified in a time of cuts provided acceptable hot food can be provided from the buffet car more cheaply. My opinion of the minister however is damaged by his air link and by the fact the 2nd express is also heading south in the morning, and north in the evening, when I was expecting a 2nd WAG express would have done the opposite. I also think they should have postponed the launch of the service (and got that slice of their money back from ATW) until December when they realised the new stock to run the service would not become available until then. Better yet, they could maybe have hired in other LHCS until the proper stock arrives. Either way, 150s on express services (esspecially long-distance ones) just isn't right. I also think they should make more use of the stock, it can't really take 6? hours to clean and fuel the set can it?
 

1V53

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Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of an express service linking north and south Wales, and I think the LHCS stock on WAG1 is the right tool for the job (except for not having a DVT/DBSO, if it did it'd probablly be going via Wrexham). If such a train came my way I'd have been out to photograph it and probablly used it many more times, it is miles better (to look at, but better to travel on too) than those boring, bland, 175s with their rock hard seats (I still haven't been on a refurbished set though, so maybe they've fixed that).

I'm just not sure whether the expense of the chef is justified in a time of cuts provided acceptable hot food can be provided from the buffet car more cheaply. My opinion of the minister however is damaged by his air link and by the fact the 2nd express is also heading south in the morning, and north in the evening, when I was expecting a 2nd WAG express would have done the opposite. I also think they should have postponed the launch of the service (and got that slice of their money back from ATW) until December when they realised the new stock to run the service would not become available until then. Better yet, they could maybe have hired in other LHCS until the proper stock arrives. Either way, 150s on express services (esspecially long-distance ones) just isn't right. I also think they should make more use of the stock, it can't really take 6? hours to clean and fuel the set can it?

I think the problem is with the latter point you've got 4 and a bit hours window in the middle of the day (off peak) between a down and an up one off oddball service.

Anyone who plans schedules knows your service is planned to grow to the peak, slide back or stay level through the day, stay level or build up to evening peak then slide back through the evening until closure or skeleton nightime.

A one off oddball stuffed in like this doesn't lend itself to do anything useful without more staff expense, as staff are coming down from the North needing to return, and vice versa at night, hence very wasteful diagramming of staff, because it is a complete oddball imbalance trip each way.

Its really not easy to utilise unless planned in with a complete timetable rework.... But then you are mucking about with the franchised operation to suit a one-off oddity that can be dropped at the whim of the paymaster (the WAG).

Where on earth would you send it on a one off trip at 11-12am getting back at around 4pm that would have a path and more to the point would fill a gap that was needed (off peak)?!
 

merlodlliw

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What's worth mentioning about a small propeller airplane - more Cesna than 747!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Hang on, you said they were on £50k each a few posts back......

Anyway, sounds like Carwyn Jones is indeed supportive of Gerald, doesn't look like the service is in much peril....and rightly so! As I said before - One Wales was a Plaid - Labour joint document! And Labour aren't stupid enough to undo all that was achieved under that - they may be looking for coalition partners again sometime!!

I never said each, the Chef service costs ATW a minimum of £60K PA on Gerald.

As for WAGAIR, a small aircraft flying Holyhead to Cardiff for political use costing £1.6M PA minimum of taxpayers money is good achievement then.

As for Gerald from December 2011 for another year, we shall see if WAG can find another £2Millions plus of taxpayers money to bankroll it in its present form of elite open access.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I think the problem is with the latter point you've got 4 and a bit hours window in the middle of the day (off peak) between a down and an up one off oddball service.

Anyone who plans schedules knows your service is planned to grow to the peak, slide back or stay level through the day, stay level or build up to evening peak then slide back through the evening until closure or skeleton nightime.

A one off oddball stuffed in like this doesn't lend itself to do anything useful without more staff expense, as staff are coming down from the North needing to return, and vice versa at night, hence very wasteful diagramming of staff, because it is a complete oddball imbalance trip each way.

Its really not easy to utilise unless planned in with a complete timetable rework.... But then you are mucking about with the franchised operation to suit a one-off oddity that can be dropped at the whim of the paymaster (the WAG).

Where on earth would you send it on a one off trip at 11-12am getting back at around 4pm that would have a path and more to the point would fill a gap that was needed (off peak)?!

But now we have two train sets, one hired in from the W&B franchise a 175 hanging around Cardiff for 6 hours going nowhere.
I appreciate these two trains are now open access paid for by WAG & are only paid to run one return trip, but a 175 paid to be out of service for 6 hours, is well crazy in my opinion.
......................................................................................................................................................................................................
I have recieved the verbatum report from Toby Jones
Researcher to Mark Isherwood AM
Shadow Minister for Social Justice and Housing this morning here it is


Mark Isherwood: The McNulty report, which was published last Thursday, made a number of recommendations to deliver savings. The report was commissioned by the previous Labour Government when it found that the railway in the UK was 30 per cent more expensive than its equivalent in other countries. The recommendations were made to make savings, but this week saw the launch of the second north/south express train service from Holyhead to Cardiff. Why is the Welsh Government subsidising,to the tune of £100,000 a month a second premier express service that leaves Holyhead just 15 minutes before the general service in the morning? Why, in consequence, is the premier service able to undercut the general service fares, on advance purchase, by 50 per cent or more? Those rates are not available to people using the general service.


The First Minister: You are referring to two different services, but I would have thought that you would welcome anything that reduces journey times between north and south Wales—particularly train services. The cost of railway services in Britain is not exactly a ringing endorsement of privatisation. We know that railway services in Britain are more expensive than almost everywhere else in the world. Privatisation was meant to deliver better value for passengers but it clearly has a long way to go.
 
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1V53

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Just an observation. London Midland has a 170 that sits in Shrewsbury between the peaks, and other sets that sit elsewhere between peaks. Many of these sit all weekend unused. Who do you think pays for these?

Whilst I agree with the sentiments of those questioning the costs, the costs are associated with the service requirement. Ie someone wants an extra train (or two) to run only in the peaks then if your service requirement is already covered at other times then there would be a requirement to charge the costs associated with the unit doing nothing. Simple economics.

My point is that the unit sitting doing nothing is an obvious by product of the service requirement if the WAG for this. I'm not really sure why people are surprised or even mentioning it. It's an obvious by-product surely?
 

tbtc

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Where on earth would you send it on a one off trip at 11-12am getting back at around 4pm that would have a path and more to the point would fill a gap that was needed (off peak)?!

I've argued on here in the past for it to fill some of the bi-hourly "gaps" in the Cardiff - Cwmbran - Abergavenny - Hereford service (there are three trains every two hours on this route, leaving gaps, plus a lot of the seats are taken by long distance passengers, meaning places like Cwmbran get a worse service to Cardiff than other similarly sized towns of a similar distance from the Capital).

Other TOCs obviously use some units on peak diagrams only, but at least they are able to switch units around. For example, you might have five DMUs on the peak service but only need four DMUs off-peak. So, each unit spends one day a week on the "peak" service, meaning it can have maintenance during the daytime, allowing an element of flexibility.

However, having a special train with First Class/ Restaurant means theres no flexibility.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I have read this with some interest and must say I am disappointed to see the on board chef's copping the flak due to the cost of running the express service. As a railway worker who has worked closely with the chefs in question I find I must reiterate what the service was meant to provide.

A premier 1st class Service offering a first class service
Freshly prepared meals NOT 'ping' dinners as per some other TOC's ideas.

Now I am not ignoring the fact that 'Yes' the costs are higher but the service provided are First Class. In this day and age of cuts and job losses I would have expected these hard working chef's and on board staff to be praised not hung to dry over costs!!! Remember these guys work a 16hr day which as previously mentioned includes service/ Meal prep and fresh food sourcing in their downtime at Canton.

After what happened with WSMR this fast fading type of service needs as much support as possible.

Incidently, having travelled this service from both Holyhead and Canton There is public support from both ends of Wales.
[/LIST]


Support? Do you mean "this fast fading type of service needs as much state subsidy as possible"? Why does this one train a day (which carries the leader of Plaid) need significantly better facilities than all the other ATW services?
 

Bakers1970

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16 Apr 2010
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Support? Do you mean "this fast fading type of service needs as much state subsidy as possible"? Why does this one train a day (which carries the leader of[/B] Plaid) need significantly better facilities than all the other ATW services?[/QUOTE]

Whilst I can fully understand the apparent concerns of members regarding costs...Being the only service with a 1st Class catering facility, I feel the ex-Transport minister's legacy is clouding the purpose of this train. Yes in some peoples eyes it may seem costly but the service provided to ALL( Not just the 1st Minister!!) is from the top draw.

It seems evident that the clouded judgement of some seem intent on criticising the Premier service at every opportunity.

Surely if the paying public passengers are happy with the service then that is the key element?
 
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