Waiting for prosecution letter

[poertymdf]

Currently waiting on a prosecution letter from an (according to this forum) fairly pragmatic TOC for an incident this week for intentional fare evasion (short faring). No excuse, this is disgraceful behaviour that deserves serious repercussions, I am very ashamed of myself and only fully realising the seriousness of my actions. Looking to open a thread here to find the best way of responding to them once they send me a letter, as discussed on other threads. I have read the information on posting to this forum, and I can see that all details of the incident will get the best advice, but that upon posting to this forum the threads cannot be deleted voluntarily, only if the moderators deem it fit. I understand that you can protect yourself by not giving personal information, but surely based on the details of my incident the TOC can line up and identify which incident it was? I’m worried if they see this it will reduce my chance of negotiating an out of court settlement, as my trainline history will reveal approximately 5 other times I have committed this criminal behaviour. They will find this anyway, but I am also conscious that a number of times I have bought a ticket on board and had it scanned by the ticket inspector soon afterwards, which I’m sure they can also check through trainline records of my account. Is this likely? As I will need to respond to their letter with full cooperation if they indicate they have done their own investigation and are offering to hear my version of events in order to increase chances of a settlement.

 

[ikcdab]

The Railway companies have thousands of cases to deal with. The advice here is that without a case number there is no point in contacting them because they won't be able to locate your details. That being the case, I think it highly unlikely that they can marry up a post on here with a case that have. And even if they do have enough spare people to trawl this and other forums, the data they would get would only ever be a guess. We don't need exact dates and think that, on balance, it is better to be open on here which can help you with a better chance of a more positive outcome than it is to withhold info.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

If you want some bespoke advice for your case then we need to know more details. We don’t condone fare evasion but we have some genuine experts on here and have a good track record of being able to tell people the consequences and what is likely to happen in their case.

This is only possible because people have been willing to tell us about their cases. One of the most frustrating things for me is someone who asks for advice, gets it but then seeks to delete their posts. If everyone did that we wouldn’t have a forum and be able to help anyone.

Train companies deal with thousands of cases at a time, we do ask that personal details and any case reference numbers are redacted before uploading.

I’ve not seen a case on here where someone asking for help has ended up with a worse outcome. To be blunt, if your Trainline account shows five previous cases of not purchasing the correct ticket that is minor compared to many cases we see on here.

 

[30907]

You don't need to mention the stations involved, though it helps to know which TOC, nor the dates, nor even the number of times you have offended.

 

[poertymdf]

Understood, thank you for your replies. Hadders, I totally understand the frustration of someone wanting to ask for advice, getting it, then wanting to remove their post and thereby reduce the utility of these forums. I didn't plan to do this (planning to ask for this thread to be deleted after receiving advice), I understood that posting here meant having it open to the public eye. I was just posting first to understand the risk vs reward of posting details, which seems to be overwhelmingly positive as you outline and as I have seen on previous posts. And I'd like to thank you all kind people in advance for using your free time to help people like us trying to fix bad situations of our own making.

I took the elizabeth line from liverpool street to slough for which I didn't have a valid ticket. On arrival I tried to buy a ticket from eton&windsor to slough to get through the barriers at slough, which didn't work. The GWR employee (don't know if their role was RPI exactly) questioned me and I lied at first saying I had arrived on this eton&windsor train, which hadn't arrived at slough that morning as they highlighted to me. I then confessed that I had bought it just then to attempt to avoid the fare, because I knew the slough station was outside of oyster system and I hadn't bought a valid ticket. They asked to scan my oyster and took a picture of my recent trainline history, so I obliged to both and cooperated with taking name and address details. Received the reported for prosecution note, and discussed with them what the consequences could be (I was stupidly completely unaware of the seriousness of this). They informed me GWR usually tries to settle out of court but they couldn't guarantee this would be the case, understandably that requires a full investigation before they choose next steps as I've read on this forum.
They are likely to suspect ~8 previous instances of short faring, with fraudulent refunds applied, mostly on GWR but one on another TOC and one more on another TOC. These are quite sporadic but over a few years of trainline history since 2021 which is probably an aggravating factor. However, one of these is actually a legitimate one where I replaced the journey with a coach ticket which doesn't show in the trainline records, but if I'm lucky enough to get a settlement offer I don't imagine trying to dispute this makes much sense.
Does anyone have an estimate on how long the GWR letter (if I'm luck enough to get the "give us your version of events" letter and not an immediate court summons notice) usually gives to reply to them? I'm supposed to go away from 7-12th April so I wonder if I will have to cancel this, although it's probably unlikely to arrive on Sunday 7th, that would put me 5 days away from the mailbox, only able to check it on the evening of the 12th. However, I can definitely get my flatmate to check our shared mailbox for me but that's obviously less than ideal having to involve him in my personal issues. Also curious to know whether they will be able to see trainline booking transaction times and see when they were scanned, I'm assuming they can.

 

[WesternLancer]

Understood, thank you for your replies. Hadders, I totally understand the frustration of someone wanting to ask for advice, getting it, then wanting to remove their post and thereby reduce the utility of these forums. I didn't plan to do this (planning to ask for this thread to be deleted after receiving advice), I understood that posting here meant having it open to the public eye. I was just posting first to understand the risk vs reward of posting details, which seems to be overwhelmingly positive as you outline and as I have seen on previous posts. And I'd like to thank you all kind people in advance for using your free time to help people like us trying to fix bad situations of our own making.

I took the elizabeth line from liverpool street to slough for which I didn't have a valid ticket. On arrival I tried to buy a ticket from eton&windsor to slough to get through the barriers at slough, which didn't work. The GWR employee (don't know if their role was RPI exactly) questioned me and I lied at first saying I had arrived on this eton&windsor train, which hadn't arrived at slough that morning as they highlighted to me. I then confessed that I had bought it just then to attempt to avoid the fare, because I knew the slough station was outside of oyster system and I hadn't bought a valid ticket. They asked to scan my oyster and took a picture of my recent trainline history, so I obliged to both and cooperated with taking name and address details. Received the reported for prosecution note, and discussed with them what the consequences could be (I was stupidly completely unaware of the seriousness of this). They informed me GWR usually tries to settle out of court but they couldn't guarantee this would be the case, understandably that requires a full investigation before they choose next steps as I've read on this forum.
They are likely to suspect ~8 previous instances of short faring, with fraudulent refunds applied, mostly on GWR but one on another TOC and one more on another TOC. These are quite sporadic but over a few years of trainline history since 2021 which is probably an aggravating factor. However, one of these is actually a legitimate one where I replaced the journey with a coach ticket which doesn't show in the trainline records, but if I'm lucky enough to get a settlement offer I don't imagine trying to dispute this makes much sense.
Does anyone have an estimate on how long the GWR letter (if I'm luck enough to get the "give us your version of events" letter and not an immediate court summons notice) usually gives to reply to them? I'm supposed to go away from 7-12th April so I wonder if I will have to cancel this, although it's probably unlikely to arrive on Sunday 7th, that would put me 5 days away from the mailbox, only able to check it on the evening of the 12th. However, I can definitely get my flatmate to check our shared mailbox for me but that's obviously less than ideal having to involve him in my personal issues. Also curious to know whether they will be able to see trainline booking transaction times and see when they were scanned, I'm assuming they can.

I would say it is almost certain that you will get the letter from GWR (not straight to prosecution) - and GWR appear to be one of the more reasonable forms to deal with - so your chances of negotiating a settlement are quite strong. But it is vital you get and respond to this letter.

Not sure how long it will take for them to write to you.

If you are away 7-12 April you could consider setting up a Royal Mail redirection to a trusted family member if you would prefer your flat mate not to know your business (see Royal Mal website) - you do need to do this some days ahead of your departure though so you might want to look into this now to see if it is helpful or more complication that i tis worth
They will see all your on line purchases and refunds if they look (and I would assume they will).

You may find it helpful for now to have a look at the GWR revenue protection policy pdf document on their website - this also makes it clear that they seek to settle if this is appropriate.

https://www.gwr.com/-/media/gwr-sc-website/files/revenue-protection-policy/GWR-Revenue-Protection-Policy-January-2023.pdf

 

[Deafdoggie]

If you are away 7-12 April you could consider setting up a Royal Mail redirection

Redirection isn't a temporary thing. It has a 3 month minimum term.
The service for that is Keepsafe. But then they don't deliver the mail at all and simply deliver it all once you're back (12th April) so this might not be ideal.

 

[WesternLancer]

Redirection isn't a temporary thing. It has a 3 month minimum term.
The service for that is Keepsafe. But then they don't deliver the mail at all and simply deliver it all once you're back (12th April) so this might not be ideal.

Thanks for clarifying

 

[30907]

Thanks for clarifying

A 5-day delay in replying is something and nothing - given the state of the postal service, even missing a deadline by a day or two is unlikely to matter; failing to reply at all is.

 

[poertymdf]

I will stick to asking my flatmate to check for me instead of postal redirection. Does anyone have an estimate for how long GWR usually gives to reply to their letter?

 

[WesternLancer]

I will stick to asking my flatmate to check for me instead of postal redirection. Does anyone have an estimate for how long GWR usually gives to reply to their letter?

Seem to recall often cases on here with ppl saying they are waiting for GWR to reply so maybe slowly. @RPI may have an idea.

 

[FenMan]

I will stick to asking my flatmate to check for me instead of postal redirection. Does anyone have an estimate for how long GWR usually gives to reply to their letter?

The team employed by GWR to investigate ticketing irregularities won't be filling a large office block. They'll be looking at your situation in turn, which, depending how busy they are, could be months from now. Best you keep an eagle eye on your post.

 

[MikeWh]

I will stick to asking my flatmate to check for me instead of postal redirection. Does anyone have an estimate for how long GWR usually gives to reply to their letter?

I'm not sure, but it is likely to be 14 days minimum, possibly 21.

 

[RPI]

Seem to recall often cases on here with ppl saying they are waiting for GWR to reply so maybe slowly. @RPI may have an idea.

As far as I'm aware, there isn't much of a backlog at the moment.

 

[poertymdf]

@MikeWh just to confirm, you mean that's your estimate of how long they give you to reply to their letter asking for my side of the story? And do you know whether GWR let's you reply via email or whether this has to be done by post? Thanks

 

[mboy7]

Hey

Have you received any letter from them yet? Almost in a similar situation really depressed about it. I hope you got through it.

 

[skyhigh]

Hey

Have you received any letter from them yet? Almost in a similar situation really depressed about it. I hope you got through it.

Please start your own thread to get advice relevant to you.

 

[poertymdf]

I'm still yet to receive any letter, but they definitely had my address right when they took my details. This happened in early march, so I should be expecting to hear back from them by early september right?

 

[signed]

They have 6 months after the offense to send it for prosecution, so if nothing comes after 6 months, you are pretty sure nothing came from it and they dropped the case.

 

[poertymdf]

Right, although I find that unlikely given the time I was caught was not a single isolated incident. But thanks for the heads up.

Separately, say if for whatever strange reason the letter they send is lost by royal mail, as I've read on other threads, I would eventually find out this had happened because I would receive another letter saying I have been convicted by the courts? Because I theoretically wasn't able to reply to their original letter due to it being lost - at which point I would request a statutory claim, meaning the clock is reset for a number of weeks for me to then get back into contact with the TOC to pursue an out of court settlement?

 

[signed]

I would eventually find out this had happened because I would receive another letter saying I have been convicted by the courts?

Yes, probably. But loosing two straight letters (the initial verification letter and then the SJPN or the summons) would be quite bizarre (though that can happen of course), especially if you are sure the address is correct.

I would wait for the experts to weigh in about that, but I would say you could contact them, giving them as much identifying information (while not incrminating yourself of course) if you are worried the mail may have been lost. IANAL, but my opinion would be that it isn't worth it, being quite near the statute of limitations.

The email (as linked in #6) is [email protected]

 

[poertymdf]

Hi all. This incident happened in mid march, and it's now been over 6 months since then. I am yet to receive any form of letter from the TOC, nor a SJPN, nor a summons, so it seems as if they haven't engaged me on this matter? However, I remember reading on some other posts that they can get into contact after the 6 month period has elapsed? But I also remember reading that this can be if someone repeats the offence again later down the line? Obviously have not repeated these deplorable actions since the march incident, so I'm wondering about this point at the moment.

I wonder if this lack of letter is something to do with the recent rulings about the SJPN that I read about? And people power being diverted to deal with that?

Needless to say, suffering heavy amounts of stress for 6 months due to my own deplorable choices and actions has taught me a very serious lesson, and I consider myself incredibly lucky to not have faced any further consequences (assuming I am now in the clear after 6 months). I'd like to thank this forum for providing measured, timely, and considerate advice.

 

[30907]

Needless to say, suffering heavy amounts of stress for 6 months due to my own deplorable choices and actions has taught me a very serious lesson, and I consider myself incredibly lucky to not have faced any further consequences (assuming I am now in the clear after 6 months).

Not quite, unfortunately - they had 6 months to "lay the information" before a court, and the court may not write immediately. If they do, check that the TOC was not out of time - we had a case recently.

I'd like to thank this forum for providing measured, timely, and considerate advice.

Kind of you to say so.

 

[Hadders]

I wonder if this lack of letter is something to do with the recent rulings about the SJPN that I read about? And people power being diverted to deal with that?

Southeastern are not impacted by the recent ruling on SJPN.

As long as you gave the correct contact details then I don't think there's anything more you can do. One letter might go astray but there would be at least one other and more likely two, and it's highly unlikely that all of the letters would go astray.

 

[poertymdf]

Not quite, unfortunately - they had 6 months to "lay the information" before a court, and the court may not write immediately. If they do, check that the TOC was not out of time - we had a case recently.

Kind of you to say so.

Sorry just so I understand, you mean that there is a possibility the TOC has engaged the courts within the 6 months, in which case I would be contacted by a court rather than the TOC? Essentially, the TOC escalated it to a court within the 6 month time allotted without contacting me first? What would be the best course of action in that case? Could you give more details of that other case you're referring to?

Also @Hadders , the TOC is GWR in this case.

 

[Hadders]

Apologies, I'm not sure where I got Southeastern from

GWR are impacted by the SJON issue but that shouldn't adversely affect your case. Just to confirm that if GWR want to prosecute you then they have to 'lay information before the court' (i.e. send the paperwork to the court) within six months of the date of the offence. Once the court has received the paperwork they will then send you a summons.

So it is possible that GWR lay papers on the day of the six month deadline and it takes the court a couple of weeks to send you the summons.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Sorry just so I understand, you mean that there is a possibility the TOC has engaged the courts within the 6 months, in which case I would be contacted by a court rather than the TOC? Essentially, the TOC escalated it to a court within the 6 month time allotted without contacting me first? What would be the best course of action in that case? Could you give more details of that other case you're referring to?

Also @Hadders , the TOC is GWR in this case.

Practically speaking, wait until maybe the middle of October (so six months since the incident, plus another month for court paperwork to come through). If you haven't heard anything by then, then the railway are out of time and (almost certainly) nothing more will happen.

The 'almost certainly' bit is because the railway can make other charges which don't have the six month limit, or because papers may have got lost in the post. Neither of these happen very often, so you probably don't need to worry about them (an exception exists if you gave the wrong address, in which case it's your own fault if the paperwork doesn't get to you): if somehow it turns out that one of these rare events has happened then we can try to help you out with it.

 

[poertymdf]

Apologies, I'm not sure where I got Southeastern from

GWR are impacted by the SJON issue but that shouldn't adversely affect your case. Just to confirm that if GWR want to prosecute you then they have to 'lay information before the court' (i.e. send the paperwork to the court) within six months of the date of the offence. Once the court has received the paperwork they will then send you a summons.

So it is possible that GWR lay papers on the day of the six month deadline and it takes the court a couple of weeks to send you the summons.

So in this case, they would have skipped any initial contact with me to issue me with a summons immediately, rather than the standard letter they seem to send to most people that I see on these forums? Is there any precedent on how commonly they leave this step until the last day of the 6 months to do this?

And separately, if this is what they choose to do, it seems like engaging a lawyer is the next logical step because the serious court steps are being taken, and the TOC are past the contact and negotiating phase?

 

[Hadders]

It is practically unheard of to go straight to issuing a court summons. At least one letter is sent first.

We recently had a case where SWR issued papers that were out of time and the case was withdrawn after advice was taken fromt his forum and an approriate letter sent to SWR.

 

[signed]

it seems like engaging a lawyer is the next logical step because the serious court steps are being taken

IANAL You will probably be found guilty either way if you are charged of anything but fraud, those are strict liability offenses (fraud isn't), if you did it, you will be found guilty.