Walking as the first leg of a route?

[CyrusWuff]

I'm sure I've seen this in a thread before, but my Search skills have failed to locate it. The basic question is "Can you use a walk as the first leg of a route?"

Now for the specifics: The logical route for a Bicester Village - Slough ticket is via Oxford, but is it also valid via High Wycombe and London? There's no Maltese Cross on it, so the cross-London transfer isn't included if it is, it's not a direct train, and with an eNRT distance of 73.25 against 56.75 via Oxford, it fails the shortest route test too.

Doing a fares check, both Oxford and Princes Risborough pass the check when using the NFM64 Cheap Day Single fares, and this is where it gets tricky: Prior to 2015, the only way to get from Bicester Village to Princes Risborough was to start with a walk to Bicester North, and the fares from Bicester North to Slough were higher than those from what was then Bicester Town.

Obviously, there are now direct trains from Bicester Village via Princes Risborough, yet journey planners say that you need a combination of tickets (Bicester North/Village to London Terminals via High Wycombe, and Zone U1 to Slough) for such a journey. I can't see an obvious negative easement precluding the use of such tickets on the longer route (even though it 100% makes sense), which brings us back to my initial question.

Given it's not showing as valid, this is mostly an academic exercise, hence why I've named the stations involved rather than giving them cryptic A, B, C and D "names".

 

[The exile]

There are tickets issued where you basically have to walk as the first / last element of the journey (Many tickets to from Farnborough Main / North where the only sensible route to one of the two is to get off at the other one and walk)

 

[miklcct]

There are tickets issued where you basically have to walk as the first / last element of the journey (Many tickets to from Farnborough Main / North where the only sensible route to one of the two is to get off at the other one and walk)

I understand it differently. I treat such tickets as valid to the appropriate National Rail station on a permitted route, similar to the case of London Terminals.

 

[Watershed]

I'm sure I've seen this in a thread before, but my Search skills have failed to locate it. The basic question is "Can you use a walk as the first leg of a route?"

I'm not entirely sure how a walk comes into this question? There is no link between Bicester Village and North in the data, other than that there are tickets issued jointly to Bicester North/Village.

Now for the specifics: The logical route for a Bicester Village - Slough ticket is via Oxford, but is it also valid via High Wycombe and London?

Yes, it is. I am sure there are times when going via London is quickest - certainly if you use a realistic connection time between Marylebone and Paddington, rather than the inflated official one.

There's no Maltese Cross on it, so the cross-London transfer isn't included if it is

The Maltese Cross does not necessarily have to be present for a cross-London transfer to be included. See this paragraph from the Routeing Guide:

The via London, Maltese cross symbol on a ticket signifies that the ticket may be used via London Underground or Thameslink services. Unless a ticket specifies that the journey must be made via London, passengers are free to use an alternative ‘permitted route’ for their journey as provided by the Routeing Guide. In some instances (particularly long distance cross country journeys) the fares data will show an "any permitted" fare but without the via London, Maltese cross symbol. Reference to Section C (the “yellow pages”) may show via London to be a permitted route for this journey and in such instances travel via London to include cross-London transfer would be permitted.

In practice, a fare without a Maltese cross, even if issued on CCST stock, will not be encoded with Underground validity in the magstripe. And therefore, whether you try and use this, or an e-ticket or smartcard, it is highly unlikely you would be let through the barriers at the Underground station. In the likely event this happened, you would be entitled to reclaim from LU the cost of the fare you were wrongly required to pay for your cross-London transfer.

it's not a direct train, and with an eNRT distance of 73.25 against 56.75 via Oxford, it fails the shortest route test too.

Indeed, so it is only permitted under the Routeing Guide and therefore could be barred by a negative easement (indeed I expect that's what will happen now that you've posted it here - you may wish to report your post for the thread to be hidden or deleted, if you don't want this to happen).

Doing a fares check, both Oxford and Princes Risborough pass the check when using the NFM64 Cheap Day Single fares, and this is where it gets tricky: Prior to 2015, the only way to get from Bicester Village to Princes Risborough was to start with a walk to Bicester North, and the fares from Bicester North to Slough were higher than those from what was then Bicester Town.

The fares check is not concerned with the fares from another nearby station - it is purely concerned with the fares from the actual origin station, and those from its associated Routeing Points, and similarly for the destination. There is no Bicester Routeing Point Group and therefore the fares from Bicester North will never be used for a fares check from Bicester Village.

Obviously, there are now direct trains from Bicester Village via Princes Risborough, yet journey planners say that you need a combination of tickets (Bicester North/Village to London Terminals via High Wycombe, and Zone U1 to Slough) for such a journey. I can't see an obvious negative easement precluding the use of such tickets on the longer route (even though it 100% makes sense), which brings us back to my initial question.

Journey planners say this because they are prevented, under the accreditation rules, from offering itineraries involving the Underground/DLR if there is no Maltese cross. However if you search for a journey at a time when the data says the Underground is closed, you'll be offered itineraries via London with a "make your own way" transfer.

Given it's not showing as valid, this is mostly an academic exercise, hence why I've named the stations involved rather than giving them cryptic A, B, C and D "names".

You might want to rethink that