• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Warrington - Manchester anytime (non-day) return missing

Status
Not open for further replies.

Hectorin

Member
Joined
19 Oct 2022
Messages
5
Location
Warrington
Hello, I'm looking to travel from Warrington to Manchester (Piccadilly) on 12th May returning 13th May - the outbound will be at peak time so looking for anytime tickets. I appreciate those are strike days but from what I can see TfW trains should still be running so I can use those.

The issue is that I cannot find any return tickets that are not day returns. The only option seems to be buying two single tickets at a pretty exorbitant price of just under £20! I can get a one-way ticket to Glasgow for around that price if booked in advance!
Am I missing something or is this just idiocy on the part of the fare structure around Manchester?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Mcr Warrior

Veteran Member
Joined
8 Jan 2009
Messages
14,688
It's one of those local flows where period returns aren't normally ever offered, it being less than 16 miles from Warrington Central to Manchester Oxford Road.

Since you're comparing the cost with advance singles to Glasgow, it should be noted that advance singles between Warrington Central and Manchester Oxford Road can sometimes be had for a little over £3.00 with TPE or Northern.
 

MrJeeves

Established Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
28 Aug 2015
Messages
3,406
Location
Burgess Hill
Hello, I'm looking to travel from Warrington to Manchester (Piccadilly) on 12th May returning 13th May - the outbound will be at peak time so looking for anytime tickets. I appreciate those are strike days but from what I can see TfW trains should still be running so I can use those.

The issue is that I cannot find any return tickets that are not day returns. The only option seems to be buying two single tickets at a pretty exorbitant price of just under £20! I can get a one-way ticket to Glasgow for around that price if booked in advance!
Am I missing something or is this just idiocy on the part of the fare structure around Manchester?

You could buy a normal Anytime Day Return and use it on both days because of ticket acceptance due to the strikes. Some people might argue this isn't allowed, but I don't see (a) why not, considering trains will end earlier than a non-strike day and (b) how anyone would actually know.

Customers with Anytime, Off-Peak or Advance tickets, also Ranger/Rover tickets, for a TOC on strike – dated for 12 and 13 May are permitted to travel either on the day before the date on the ticket or up to Tuesday 16 May 2023.
From https://tfw.wales/industrial-action
 

Hectorin

Member
Joined
19 Oct 2022
Messages
5
Location
Warrington
It's one of those local flows where period returns aren't normally ever offered, it being less than 16 miles from Warrington Central to Manchester Oxford Road.

Since you're comparing the cost with advance singles to Glasgow, it should be noted that advance singles between Warrington Central and Manchester Oxford Road can sometimes be had for a little over £3.00 with TPE or Northern.

I don't understand how the distance between stations means that a day return exists but a non-day return doesn't. Just because it's a short(er) distance means that I must return within a day or pay for much worse-value tickets? It doesn't make sense to me.
I appreciate the comparison was a bit apples and oranges, but it certainly doesn't "feel" right to have such prices co-existing; it's not like the advance to Glasgow is months in advance, just a couple of weeks. I suppose the whole issue will be helped by the elimination of return tickets - assuming of course that TOCs do the honest thing and reduce single fares accordingly, which feels a bit of a gamble at this point.

You could buy a normal Anytime Day Return and use it on both days because of ticket acceptance due to the strikes. Some people might argue this isn't allowed, but I don't see (a) why not, considering trains will end earlier than a non-strike day and (b) how anyone would actually know.


From https://tfw.wales/industrial-action
Tricky thinking! However I notice it says "tickets ... for a TOC on strike", so as TfW is not on strike and only tickets from TfW can be purchased for my planned journeys, this wouldn't apply?
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
32,885
I don't understand how the distance between stations means that a day return exists but a non-day return doesn't. Just because it's a short(er) distance means that I must return within a day or pay for much worse-value tickets? It doesn't make sense to me.
The railway believed that short distance period returns could easily be used repeatedly until randomly checked onboard, so they are generally not available for journeys less than around 35-40 miles. It’s definitely not a recent decision, I’m sure it goes back to BR days.
 

MrJeeves

Established Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
28 Aug 2015
Messages
3,406
Location
Burgess Hill
Tricky thinking! However I notice it says "tickets ... for a TOC on strike", so as TfW is not on strike and only tickets from TfW can be purchased for my planned journeys, this wouldn't apply?
Do Northern not cover the route, too? I would imagine that you would be allowed to use the ticket without issue on the other days as the service is still affected.

You can purchase a ticket for the journey from any accredited seller, and it's route "Any Permitted" rather than being restricted to TfW, so would be valid on Northern services between Warrington and Manchester, too. I doubt you would have any issues from doing this, to be honest. If in doubt, buy for the 12th and use it on Northern on the 13th.
 

Merseysider

Established Member
Fares Advisor
Joined
22 Jan 2014
Messages
5,535
Location
Birmingham
If the situation arises in future when there aren't any ticket easements in place, a Chester to Manchester Northern only Anytime Short Return is £18.10 and valid for break of journey plus a month to make your return journey.

You may find cheaper options by playing around with station pairs, to either start "earlier" or finish your journey "later" - as long as the ticket allows BoJ it's perfectly legitimate.
 

1955LR

Member
Joined
11 Dec 2019
Messages
269
Location
Hereford
The same issue applied when I wanted a return the following day , travelling Malvern Link to Hereford. Ticket office sold me a Worcester Foregate to Hereford return instead of two singles at just over half the price . I just started & finished short.
 

Hectorin

Member
Joined
19 Oct 2022
Messages
5
Location
Warrington
The railway believed that short distance period returns could easily be used repeatedly until randomly checked onboard, so they are generally not available for journeys less than around 35-40 miles. It’s definitely not a recent decision, I’m sure it goes back to BR days.

I suppose that sort of makes sense, though people would still have to make their way to the 'return' starting station to repeat it, and given the price of singles nowadays that's largely a pointless exercise. With the proliferation of barriers too that 'exhaust' tickets that should also resolve that issue. I suppose it's something to be added to the long, long list of antiquated practices the rail industry clings on to for no good reason.

Do Northern not cover the route, too? I would imagine that you would be allowed to use the ticket without issue on the other days as the service is still affected.

You can purchase a ticket for the journey from any accredited seller, and it's route "Any Permitted" rather than being restricted to TfW, so would be valid on Northern services between Warrington and Manchester, too. I doubt you would have any issues from doing this, to be honest. If in doubt, buy for the 12th and use it on Northern on the 13th.

Northern do cover it however there's no Northern tickets to purchase at the moment, presumably they've all been cleared following the announcement of the strike action. The only tickets left are those which are 'TfW ONLY', hence I think the ticket is not sold from a "TOC on strike" and so would not qualify.

If the situation arises in future when there aren't any ticket easements in place, a Chester to Manchester Northern only Anytime Short Return is £18.10 and valid for break of journey plus a month to make your return journey.

You may find cheaper options by playing around with station pairs, to either start "earlier" or finish your journey "later" - as long as the ticket allows BoJ it's perfectly legitimate.

Yes I think I get that, and would be an option if the Northern only tickets were still available. However I thought 'short faring' (i.e. getting off before your destination station) was not allowed? I think back to the journey of WBQ to Preston being more expensive than WBQ to Lancaster, despite it being a shorter distance. As I recall the TOCs knew this and said you could be penalised if you used this trick (i.e. bought a ticket from WBQ to Lancaster, only intending to travel to Preston).

The same issue applied when I wanted a return the following day , travelling Malvern Link to Hereford. Ticket office sold me a Worcester Foregate to Hereford return instead of two singles at just over half the price . I just started & finished short.

I'm not going to spend too much time searching and so might just ask at the desk (it's not one of those closed yet, lucky me), but I just feel it's ridiculous I have to pay £8 extra for the 'luxury' of wanting to return back the next day rather than the same day.
 

MrJeeves

Established Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
28 Aug 2015
Messages
3,406
Location
Burgess Hill
The only tickets left are those which are 'TfW ONLY'
I think it's only showing you TfW only tickets by default because they're cheaper.

If I use GTR's site to search for tickets I see a £10.80 Anytime Day Return route TfW Only, but, if I click to show more tickets, I get the choice of an £11.40 Anytime Day Return which is Any Permitted route.

1683730311520.png

However I thought 'short faring' (i.e. getting off before your destination station) was not allowed?
Provided the ticket you have doesn't explicitly say you cannot break your journey, you are allowed to start or end your journey short.
 

Merseysider

Established Member
Fares Advisor
Joined
22 Jan 2014
Messages
5,535
Location
Birmingham
Yes I think I get that, and would be an option if the Northern only tickets were still available. However I thought 'short faring' (i.e. getting off before your destination station) was not allowed? I think back to the journey of WBQ to Preston being more expensive than WBQ to Lancaster, despite it being a shorter distance. As I recall the TOCs knew this and said you could be penalised if you used this trick (i.e. bought a ticket from WBQ to Lancaster, only intending to travel to Preston).
Tickets largely fall into the following types:

Advance - no break of journey allowed, so no getting or off except for what's shown on your ticket.

Anytime - break of journey is allowed, so you can get on or off whenever and wherever you want within the ticket's validity.*

Off Peak / Super Off Peak - as per Anytime, but there are a small number of tickets (eg most Off Peak returns priced by TfW) which don't permit it - the restriction code printed on the ticket (eg 8A) can be checked on the National Rail website.

SailRail tickets are excluded, before the pedants come along.
 

Haywain

Veteran Member
Joined
3 Feb 2013
Messages
20,036
However I thought 'short faring' (i.e. getting off before your destination station) was not allowed?
What you refer to there is "stopping short" which is, generally but not always, allowed. Short faring is paying for a journey from A to B while travelling A - B - C which is not allowed.
 

wilbers

Member
Joined
10 Mar 2022
Messages
468
Location
Penrith
I suppose that sort of makes sense, though people would still have to make their way to the 'return' starting station to repeat it, and given the price of singles nowadays that's largely a pointless exercise. With the proliferation of barriers too that 'exhaust' tickets that should also resolve that issue. I suppose it's something to be added to the long, long list of antiquated practices the rail industry clings on to for no good reason.

I think the point being made with regards to that is if a return was bought in each direction, and the return halves used more than once (so no singles bought); rather than just the 2 return journeys that had been paid for. Though indeed much less of a problem nowadays than in years past if there is a barrier at one or both ends of the journey.
 

mangyiscute

Established Member
Joined
6 Mar 2021
Messages
1,478
Location
Reading
I think the point being made with regards to that is if a return was bought in each direction, and the return halves used more than once (so no singles bought); rather than just the 2 return journeys that had been paid for. Though indeed much less of a problem nowadays than in years past if there is a barrier at one or both ends of the journey.
Although I would argue that with the reduction in staff on trains, this practice could also increase since it's less likely that a ticket will get checked and marked while making the journey - and also less staff means barriers are more likely to be open again meaning that a ticket can be reused.
E-tickets should help for this imo since I think tickets can show if they've been scanned before, and where/when, and even if this isn't the case this appears to be the case so most people wouldn't risk using an e ticket that has previously been scanned by someone checking on the train, while they would reuse a ticket that has just been glanced at by a guard.
 

Haywain

Veteran Member
Joined
3 Feb 2013
Messages
20,036
I think the point being made with regards to that is if a return was bought in each direction, and the return halves used more than once (so no singles bought); rather than just the 2 return journeys that had been paid for. Though indeed much less of a problem nowadays than in years past if there is a barrier at one or both ends of the journey.
In BR days an Anytime Return was valid for 1 month in both directions. It was changed to 5 days for the outward portion about 20 years ago, and the the Anytime Short Return came along about 10 years ago. So, for a long time even buying in each direction wasn't necessary for multiple (mis)use.
 

Wallsendmag

Established Member
Joined
11 Dec 2014
Messages
5,645
Location
Wallsend or somewhere on the ECML
In BR days an Anytime Return was valid for 1 month in both directions. It was changed to 5 days for the outward portion about 20 years ago, and the the Anytime Short Return came along about 10 years ago. So, for a long time even buying in each direction wasn't necessary for multiple (mis)use.
8 years ago as I was discussing Virgin based names for it with the Nigels
 

Haywain

Veteran Member
Joined
3 Feb 2013
Messages
20,036
When I worked in booking and enquiry offices (1975-77), it was valid for three months in both directions. An Economy Return was valid for one month.
Yes, I am aware of that but I was referring to late BR days!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top