Was a Class 50 on 'The Clansman' unusual in 1974?

[westernpunk]

During an all line rover in July 1974, via an overnight trip from Kings Cross, I believe I caught the 2000 to Aberdeen, thence on to Inverness.

After a short while spotting (including seeing a 24 on the Aberystwyth mails), we travelled back south again on The Clansman, behind 50036.

It was a bit ironic as i was spending so much time avoiding them, back home in the Exeter area.

Were Class 50s often seen this far north?

 

[Gloster]

They appeared from time to time, apparently this was particularly so during the period that the West Coast Main Line electrification to Glasgow was being commissioned: I think they mainly appeared on the Londons, possibly most often on the Motorail. Around this time I can remember seeing one at the head of the Motorail taking us back south. (How did a 24 and the Aberystwyth Mails get to Inverness?)

 

[hexagon789]

during an all line rover last week of july 1974, , via overnight trip from kx i believe it was 2000 to aberdeen thence on to inverness, after a short while spotting ,( inc 24 on the Aberystwyth mails) we travelled back south again on the clansman behind 50036, a bit ironic as i was spending so much time avoiding them , back home in the exeter area, were 50s often seen this far north

When the Clansman was introduced in 1974, 50s appeared a few times all the way north though photos are rare but do exist. Perth depot signed 50s and pre-74 they were seen often enough on the Perth/Euston, Perth/Birmingham and the Perth/Kensington Motorail service instead of a 47. They are also known to have appeared once or twice in the Granite City on the Aberdeen/Birmingham (extended from Perth on Summer Saturdays). Again this is all late-60s/early 70s.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

For at least one timetable year circa 1974 class 50s were booked through to Inverness on the down Royal Highlander, although booked back LD to Perth so maybe instead of LD worked the Clansman if there was no cl47 available

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

According to http://www.scot-rail.co.uk/page/Class+50

From 1973 the class made occasional visits to Inverness.

I'm inclined to trust such a statement on that site. So a 50 on the HML was for a short period much less of a novelty than it may appear looking back 50 years!

 

[midland1]

They appeared from time to time, apparently this was particularly so during the period that the West Coast Main Line electrification to Glasgow was being commissioned: I think they mainly appeared on the Londons, possibly most often on the Motorail. Around this time I can remember seeing one at the head of the Motorail taking us back south. (How did a 24 and the Aberystwyth Mails get to Inverness?)

I would think the 24 and the Aber. Mails were seen at York on the way North from KX.

 

[6Gman]

I would think the 24 and the Aber. Mails were seen at York on the way North from KX.

The mails would have left York before the 2000 off the Cross reached York, surely?

On the main point I certainly recall being hauled by a 50 from Crewe to Inverness overnight in the early 1970s.

 

[Ash Bridge]

The mails would have left York before the 2000 off the Cross reached York, surely?

On the main point I certainly recall being hauled by a 50 from Crewe to Inverness overnight in the early 1970s.

Indeed, from memory I think it departed York around 21:50.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

The mails would have left York before the 2000 off the Cross reached York, surely?

Indeed, from memory I think it departed York around 21:50.

In July 1982 I caught the 2000 Kings Cross-Aberdeen at York where its departure time was 2325. The time of what I only ever knew as the York-Shrewsbury mail varied over time: according to Last Days Of The Deltics during late 1981 it left York at 2208 though ISTR it leaving as late as 2225 at one point. Nevertheless I suspect there is a little confusion on the OP's part: in the absence of decent notes this is hardly surprising after 50 years!

 

[GRALISTAIR]

They appeared from time to time, apparently this was particularly so during the period that the West Coast Main Line electrification to Glasgow was being commissioned: I think they mainly appeared on the Londons, possibly most often on the Motorail. Around this time I can remember seeing one at the head of the Motorail taking us back south. (How did a 24 and the Aberystwyth Mails get to Inverness?)

This is my memory recollection too.

 

[Springs Branch]

They are also known to have appeared once or twice in the Granite City on the Aberdeen/Birmingham (extended from Perth on Summer Saturdays). Again this is all late-60s/early 70s.

I remember seeing a photo (probably on-line, but can't seem to find it now) taken of a Class 50 in the unlikely location of Fraserburgh, hauling an old-school goods train there. I think the shot was around 1974-vintage; presumably the 50 had been purloined for the Fraserburgh branch before being sent back south with an InterCity from Aberdeen.

How promptly did all the Class 50s depart the LMR/ScR once the 'Electric Scot' services started in May 1974?
Was any significant fraction of the fleet retained at Crewe as contingency in case the new electric service fell over in its early days? (May explain why there were locos to spare to trundle down to Fraserburgh, though I'm guessing that was a one-off and lucky someone recorded it on camera)

 

[hexagon789]

I remember seeing a photo (probably on-line, but can't seem to find it now) taken of a Class 50 in the unlikely location of Fraserburgh, hauling an old-school goods train there. I think the shot was around 1974-vintage; presumably the 50 had been purloined for the Fraserburgh branch before being sent back south with an InterCity from Aberdeen.

How promptly did all the Class 50s depart the LMR/ScR once the 'Electric Scot' services started in May 1974?
Was any significant fraction of the fleet retained at Crewe as contingency in case the new electric service fell over in its early days? (May explain why there were locos to spare to trundle down to Fraserburgh, though I'm guessing that was a one-off and lucky someone recorded it on camera)

I think the last ones on the LMR weren't transferred until 1976, but I'm not sure how many they retained by that point.

Certainly just before the electrification to Glasgow was energised, in March 1974, Bristol had 8 and Crewe the other 42.

 

[Magdalia]

How promptly did all the Class 50s depart the LMR/ScR once the 'Electric Scot' services started in May 1974?

Certainly just before the electrification to Glasgow was energised, in March 1974, Bristol had 8 and Crewe the other 42.

Almost exactly half of the class 50 fleet, 24 locos, went from the LMR to the WR in May 1974.

The WR had received 11 locos prior to that, bringing their total up to 35 locos, leaving 15 with the LMR.

One of these moved in May 1975, the remainder between January and May 1976.

Perth drivers were trained on class 50s when they were new as they drove to/from Carlisle.

overnight trip from kx i believe it was 2000 to aberdeen thence on to inverness, after a short while spotting ,( inc 24 on the Aberystwyth mails)

The mails would have left York before the 2000 off the Cross reached York, surely?

Yes, in 1974 the Aber mail departed York at 2148, the 2000 Kings Cross-Aberdeen was at York 2313-2325.

Furthermore, the Aber mail was an ER loco as far as Stockport so would only have had a class 24 after departure from Crewe, not when departing York. Class 24s finished in the York/Leeds area in 1971.

 

[Snow1964]

during an all line rover last week of july 1974, , via overnight trip from kx i believe it was 2000 to aberdeen thence on to inverness, after a short while spotting ,( inc 24 on the Aberystwyth mails) we travelled back south again on the clansman behind 50036, a bit ironic as i was spending so much time avoiding them , back home in the exeter area, were 50s often seen this far north

Were there many 50s in Exeter area before July 1974, I know a few moved down, but wouldn't have thought of them as common before the West Coast electrification released them.

Maybe my memory is wrong, but I thought Exeter was 46 Peaks, 47s and Westerns in early 1974

 

[6Gman]

Yes, in 1974 the Aber mail departed York at 2148, the 2000 Kings Cross-Aberdeen was at York 2313-2325.

Furthermore, the Aber mail was an ER loco as far as Stockport so would only have had a class 24 after departure from Crewe, not when departing York. Class 24s finished in the York/Leeds area in 1971.

My recollection whenever I used it was that the York Mail was always a Class 40 when leaving York, and yes 21.50 was the departure time I recall.

I remember seeing a photo (probably on-line, but can't seem to find it now) taken of a Class 50 in the unlikely location of Fraserburgh, hauling an old-school goods train there. I think the shot was around 1974-vintage; presumably the 50 had been purloined for the Fraserburgh branch before being sent back south with an InterCity from Aberdeen.

The mind boggles at how route and traction knowledge were matched up for a Class 50 to Fraserburgh !

(Though there were some ambitious routecards back in those days. Guard Agate at Speke who'd happily go to Bristol - and beyond - and one or two Crewe drivers who could pretty much take anything anywhere ...)

 

[The Puddock]

I remember seeing a photo (probably on-line, but can't seem to find it now) taken of a Class 50 in the unlikely location of Fraserburgh, hauling an old-school goods train there. I think the shot was around 1974-vintage; presumably the 50 had been purloined for the Fraserburgh branch before being sent back south with an InterCity from Aberdeen.

I’ve never heard of or seen pictures of a 50 at Fraserburgh - that would be truly remarkable and I’d very much like to see it if you can find it. As mentioned above it would require a Perth traction conductor for the Ferryhill driver. The Aberdeen class 50 workings were out and back the same afternoon, so there wouldn’t be much opportunity for the loco to be pinched for a trundle up the Formatine & Buchan.

Are you sure it wasn’t Forfar? They had a booked turn there during the day on a goods trip from Perth (Flickr photo here/).

 

[Gloster]

Or it could be a driver who had recently transferred from Perth to Aberdeen and his traction knowledge of the 50 hadn’t yet expired.

 

[The Puddock]

Or it could be a driver who had recently transferred from Perth to Aberdeen and his traction knowledge of the 50 hadn’t yet expired.

True, could have been. I'd love to see the photo!

 

[Springs Branch]

I’ve never heard of or seen pictures of a 50 at Fraserburgh - that would be truly remarkable and I’d very much like to see it if you can find it.

I'm slightly embarrassed to admit I've not been able to track down that Fraserburgh photo - after arousing a bit of interest and conjecture on here.

I've been searching all the 'usual suspects' for this sort of thing without success - RMWeb (including this comprehensive album), Flickr, railscot.co.uk, Geograph etc. Maybe it was one of those on Fotopic which evaporated along with that site?

The photo I remember was black & white, and an opportunistic 'record shot', rather than a carefully composed study. The caption was very much along the lines of "how did that get there?", mentioned Aberdeen and some comment about the furthest north a Class 50 ever ventured (Fraserburgh being a slightly more northerly latitude than Inverness). It definitely wasn't Forfar. At the time I recall pulling out my AA Road Atlas to educate myself on exactly where Fraserburgh is with regards to Aberdeen.

In the absence of evidence, maybe we need to chalk up this elusive visit in line with that Scottish legal verdict - "Not Proven".

 

[westernpunk]

while i cant match fraserburgh they did manage some unusual duties in the west even managed to reach barnstaple during a dmu shortage in 1990

 

[randyrippley]

One I still can't get a sensible explanation for was a 50 at Morecambe station in 1977. It was the Saturday of Lancaster Uni intro week, so probably last week of September. It was at the head of a rake of coaches parked up in what remained of the sidings near the closed Northumberland St station. By then the 50s were supposedly all down south.
Never found it on any excursion list. Could it have worked across from Yorkshire on a running-in trip after being workshopped?

 

[Magdalia]

One I still can't get a sensible explanation for was a 50 at Morecambe station in 1977. It was the Saturday of Lancaster Uni intro week, so probably last week of September. It was at the head of a rake of coaches parked up in what remained of the sidings near the closed Northumberland St station. By then the 50s were supposedly all down south.

That's because there is no sensible explanation. Up to May 1976 a class 50 at Morecambe is very plausible, Rail Gen Archive has some van train workings to Heysham in summer 1975. After May 1976 is very unlikely, especially after the last class 50 was outshopped from Crewe early in 1977.

Could it have worked across from Yorkshire on a running-in trip after being workshopped?

No. The Doncaster Works Test Train ran to Tyne Yard. A few class 50s appeared on the south end of the ECML too, including 50009 which was the first to go through Doncaster. The RCTS website has more details here:

Class 50’s on East Coast Main Line passenger trains – Railway Correspondence & Travel Society

features.rcts.org.uk

Between 1977 and 1987, Class Fifty diesel locomotives visited Doncaster Works for overhauls. During this era they were also very occasionally used to haul timetabled ECML passenger trains. All known occurrences are listed below but is is possible there were others.

Some also returned to the Western Region on cross country services, such as 50039 working the Edinburgh-Plymouth on 01/11/77.

Excursions from east of the Pennines to Morecambe ran from ex Midland Railway stations such as Leeds and Bradford, not bastions of the Great Northern!

 

[randyrippley]

That's because there is no sensible explanation. Up to May 1976 a class 50 at Morecambe is very plausible, Rail Gen Archive has some van train workings to Heysham in summer 1975. After May 1976 is very unlikely, especially after the last class 50 was outshopped from Crewe early in 1977.


No. The Doncaster Works Test Train ran to Tyne Yard. A few class 50s appeared on the south end of the ECML too, including 50009 which was the first to go through Doncaster. The RCTS website has more details here:

Class 50’s on East Coast Main Line passenger trains – Railway Correspondence & Travel Society

features.rcts.org.uk

Some also returned to the Western Region on cross country services, such as 50039 working the Edinburgh-Plymouth on 01/11/77.

Excursions from east of the Pennines to Morecambe ran from ex Midland Railway stations such as Leeds and Bradford, not bastions of the Great Northern!

thanks for that, it'll just have to stay unexplained.
It was definitely 1977, and definitely a 50

 

[Davester50]

they did manage some unusual duties in the west even managed to reach barnstaple during a dmu shortage in 1990

There was a 50 on a scheduled local West Country duty in the Late 80s/early 90s with some air-cons (I think they came off the Night Riviera).
Fairly sure it was St Vincent that was hauling when I took it.

 

[The exile]

That's because there is no sensible explanation.

Charter from the West Country, possibly?

 

[47421]

According to http://www.scot-rail.co.uk/page/Class+50



I'm inclined to trust such a statement on that site. So a 50 on the HML was for a short period much less of a novelty than it may appear looking back 50 years!

see this post/photo

Back in the day...

Ooh thanks! I especially liked the phot of 37708 - the three "Shark" plough brakes really mark it as unusual. I never did like that Loadhaul livery with the orange overlapping onto the yellow nose though. As for 37212, let me take you back to 1983 ... Saturday 01st October, the last Saturday of...

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