Waterloo international and future Eurostar stations

[D6130]

My memory is failing me, but I'm sure I got a passport check on the train in the early days of Eurostar. Did that actually happen, or did I dream that?

Your memory is not failing you. In the early days of Eurostar passport controls were carried out on board London-bound trains. On one journey - in about 2005 - my wife and I had our passports checked by a friend and fellow crank who was then working for Border Force (or whatever it was called in those days).

Sorry, I meant Paris - Milan, which apparently is selling very well.

Journey time for the Trenitalia Paris-Milano Frecciarossa service is about 6 hours and 40 minutes.

 

[RT4038]

Sorry, I meant Paris - Milan, which apparently is selling very well.

So Trenitalia say - but is this selling very well because of promotional fares at uneconomic rates? [When I looked several months ago there was plenty of very cheap fares] The low-cost IZY service (Paris-Brussels) was being touted as a success ('selling well') shortly after introduction, but where is that now?

It is yet to be proved that there is an economic market for 5+ hr length train journeys, especially where 'churn' of intermediate passengers is not possible or restricted (as any UK-Europe train would be).

 

[2192]

Waterloo would have been a benefit when we lived in Earley on the Reading line, but it was a disadvantage once we had moved to Derby.

 

[Austriantrain]

So Trenitalia say - but is this selling very well because of promotional fares at uneconomic rates? [When I looked several months ago there was plenty of very cheap fares] The low-cost IZY service (Paris-Brussels) was being touted as a success ('selling well') shortly after introduction, but where is that now?

IZY is not a good example; just like Ouigo (in France, not in Spain) it was just an artificial creation pushed by SNCF, creating the illusion of competition where there is none (and circumventing some social rules for staff along the way, or finding an excuse to finally use rolling stock efficiently). It is actually an absurd set-up.

Regarding yields on Paris - Milan, you make a valid point and only time will tell, I suppose.

However, if no one tries it, we will never know if there is a market (having said that, the success of London - Amsterdam is rather impressive).

I agree that cross-channel it is much more difficult, and to Germany even more so, since there is no German place important enough for long-distance point-to-point traffic. A E* to Cologne and Frankfurt will still mean at least one change for a large proportion of passengers. Still, if it weren’t for security and border control requirements, there would certainly be direct trains from London to Frankfurt, as there would be to Southern France and maybe even Barcelona. It *is* these requirements that hinder a decent international rail service from London, but there is nothing that can be done about it.

 

[duesselmartin]

I never used Eurostar back then but I believe it had 5 platforms. Had it been used today could it have taken the e320 train? Did the station have any benefits over St Pancras? I prefer St Pancras I think it’s a better station for it and for trains coming from the north. I assume in Holland they will go through a similar thing a relocation how will this terminal be? The smaller one from what I seen looked much better seating than say Brussels. I’ve also never seen Rotterdams facilities how does it compare to Lille?

I am still puzzled by Waterloo. In early documentaries one heard of proposals and planning to move the Eurostar Terminus further north. Kings Cross is often mentioned. In the end it was St. P.
Why build such an outlandish structure at Waterloo if you plan to move it in future?

best wishes
Martin

 

[Trainbike46]

I am still puzzled by Waterloo. In early documentaries one heard of proposals and planning to move the Eurostar Terminus further north. Kings Cross is often mentioned. In the end it was St. P.
Why build such an outlandish structure at Waterloo if you plan to move it in future?

best wishes
Martin

Probably because the train needed to end somewhere until HS1 was built?

Plus, it is not as if the Waterloo international platforms aren't used now

 

[paul1609]

I am still puzzled by Waterloo. In early documentaries one heard of proposals and planning to move the Eurostar Terminus further north. Kings Cross is often mentioned. In the end it was St. P.
Why build such an outlandish structure at Waterloo if you plan to move it in future?

best wishes
Martin

Don't forget that the plan was that the market would have grown so much that Eurostar would have needed two London Terminals but by the time that HS1 was under construction it was apparent that the market and all future growth could be handled at just St Pancras more economically.

 

[nw1]

I am quite convinced that it wasn’t „technical difficulties“, but commercial reasons. The UKs insistence that border controls take place before boarding might well have been the straw that broke the camels‘s back: you need to be able to pay for those outstationed UK border guards, which at the very least would have had to be stationed at Frankfurt and Köln (and other stops, like Aachen and Liège, would not have been served).

Indeed - annoying that the isolationism of many UK politicians (which has only got very much worse since then) has placed limits on Eurostar's network.

As an aside, I did love the way that when travelling out of Waterloo, you shared your track with classic Southern Region traction such as CEPs and passed through all those familiarly-named Southern stations. A slower journey of course, but going from the ordinary Southern commuter network direct to Paris was quite a novelty when I first did it in 1999.

 

[Wolfie]

Indeed - annoying that the isolationism of many UK politicians (which has only got very much worse since then) has placed limits on Eurostar's network.

As an aside, I did love the way that when travelling out of Waterloo, you shared your track with classic Southern Region traction such as CEPs and passed through all those familiarly-named Southern stations. A slower journey of course, but going from the ordinary Southern commuter network direct to Paris was quite a novelty when I first did it in 1999.

Like it or loathe it politicians tend to reflect the mood of the populace.

 

[JonasB]

Still, if it weren’t for security and border control requirements, there would certainly be direct trains from London to Frankfurt, as there would be to Southern France and maybe even Barcelona. It *is* these requirements that hinder a decent international rail service from London, but there is nothing that can be done about it.

As well as trains from Paris/Brussels to other cities in the UK, not just London.

 

[johncrossley]

I used to be a regular user of rail-sea-rail services before Eurostar so I wouldn't mind changing in Paris or Brussels, as that is still a big improvement on needing a ferry in the middle of the journey but Eurostar fares are usually prohibitive unless booked well in advance. Therefore I end up flying anyway. Return flights to places like Eindhoven, Bremen, Dortmund or even Amsterdam can be less than £100 sometimes even a few days in advance.

 

[Austriantrain]

I used to be a regular user of rail-sea-rail services before Eurostar so I wouldn't mind changing in Paris or Brussels, as that is still a big improvement on needing a ferry in the middle of the journey but Eurostar fares are usually prohibitive unless booked well in advance. Therefore I end up flying anyway. Return flights to places like Eindhoven, Bremen, Dortmund or even Amsterdam can be less than £100 sometimes even a few days in advance.

It might well be that a competitor to E* is more important for improving rail services than further E* services to new destinations, because it would bring prices down. It should be hoped, though, that such a competitor would focus on better connections. If it is RENFE (as they are looking into it) that hope will probably in vain though, as they don’t believe in connections…

 

[RT4038]

It might well be that a competitor to E* is more important for improving rail services than further E* services to new destinations, because it would bring prices down. It should be hoped, though, that such a competitor would focus on better connections. If it is RENFE (as they are looking into it) that hope will probably in vain though, as they don’t believe in connections…

You may well be right, but I fear that the odds are stacked up too much against any new operator and focusing on better connections. The only route that can surely stand two operators competing has to be between the great cities of London and Paris. Any new operator is going to struggle with either paying for new outstationing of Immigration at any new terminal (to make better connections than E*) or trying to get agreement to share E* facilities (which are not exactly commodious!) or both. Any connections you get at London SP or Paris GdN will be the same as those on E* Any connections made intermediately will be relatively small numbers of passengers and not really worth the hassle.

I am not sure that there is much scope for prices coming down, with fixed per passenger tunnel transit costs and the security/immigration costs?

 

[paul1609]

I agree that cross-channel it is much more difficult, and to Germany even more so, since there is no German place important enough for long-distance point-to-point traffic. A E* to Cologne and Frankfurt will still mean at least one change for a large proportion of passengers. Still, if it weren’t for security and border control requirements, there would certainly be direct trains from London to Frankfurt, as there would be to Southern France and maybe even Barcelona. It *is* these requirements that hinder a decent international rail service from London, but there is nothing that can be done about it.

I did Ashford to Barcelona by train a couple of times.
First was on the South Of France train changing at Lyon, I was 1 of 4 people who alighted at Lyon
Second time it was £75 cheaper to change in Paris so I did that.
Even as a rail enthusiast by the end of the journey it was becoming tedious and the evening arrival in to Barcelona was too late after an early morning start from Ashford.
On both occasions I returned to the UK by easyJet for a fraction of the price and the very real advantage of an extra day in Barcelona before an evening flight home.
I did have plans to do Gibraltar by train but with the withdrawal of the Kent stops means my Eurostar Days are over

 

[Wolfie]

You may well be right, but I fear that the odds are stacked up too much against any new operator and focusing on better connections. The only route that can surely stand two operators competing has to be between the great cities of London and Paris. Any new operator is going to struggle with either paying for new outstationing of Immigration at any new terminal (to make better connections than E*) or trying to get agreement to share E* facilities (which are not exactly commodious!) or both. Any connections you get at London SP or Paris GdN will be the same as those on E* Any connections made intermediately will be relatively small numbers of passengers and not really worth the hassle.

I am not sure that there is much scope for prices coming down, with fixed per passenger tunnel transit costs and the security/immigration costs?

I wouldn't exactly imagine that the French Government would rush to accommodate a competitor to a company it indirectly owns a bloody big chunk of either.

 

[Austriantrain]

You may well be right, but I fear that the odds are stacked up too much against any new operator and focusing on better connections. The only route that can surely stand two operators competing has to be between the great cities of London and Paris. Any new operator is going to struggle with either paying for new outstationing of Immigration at any new terminal (to make better connections than E*) or trying to get agreement to share E* facilities (which are not exactly commodious!) or both. Any connections you get at London SP or Paris GdN will be the same as those on E* Any connections made intermediately will be relatively small numbers of passengers and not really worth the hassle.

I am not sure that there is much scope for prices coming down, with fixed per passenger tunnel transit costs and the security/immigration costs?

A decent competition policy would certainly force E* to open their facilities to a competitor. The UK Home Office would presumably frown on having to staff two different outfits in the same station (even if it is paid for it, it’s a waste of scarce personnel - imagine each airline at an airport having their own border and security facilities…).

In effect, you will probably be right though. Nonstop London - Paris service is probably all that would be offered by a competitor, at least at first. In order to improve connections, London - Lille - Brussels would be necessary.

 

[zwk500]

A decent competition policy would certainly force E* to open their facilities to a competitor. The UK Home Office would presumably frown on having to staff two different outfits in the same station (even if it is paid for it, it’s a waste of scarce personnel - imagine each airline at an airport having their own border and security facilities…).

In effect, you will probably be right though. Nonstop London - Paris service is probably all that would be offered by a competitor, at least at first. In order to improve connections, London - Lille - Brussels would be necessary.

The station facilities are owned by HS1 Ltd or (or LCR, cant remember), so any operator can arrange for access.

 

[Wolfie]

The station facilities are owned by HS1 Ltd or (or LCR, cant remember), so any operator can arrange for access.

That's true about London. What about Paris, Brussels, Lille?

 

[RT4038]

The station facilities are owned by HS1 Ltd or (or LCR, cant remember), so any operator can arrange for access.

In Paris they aren't, and even at St Pancras they would have to ensure that sufficient capacity was available for an additional operator and their passengers, which just may not be available without additional expenditure...... The current facilities are not exactly in excess are they.

 

[zwk500]

That's true about London. What about Paris, Brussels, Lille?

I assume by the relevant national infrastructure operator, although don't know in detail.

In Paris they aren't, and even at St Pancras they would have to ensure that sufficient capacity was available for an additional operator and their passengers, which just may not be available without additional expenditure...... The current facilities are not exactly in excess are they.

True, but the same would apply to eurostar should they want to increase services.

 

[RT4038]

True, but the same would apply to eurostar should they want to increase services.

You are right, but it probably wouldn't be quite a level playing field, for various reasons.

 

[tgsh2011]

My memory is failing me, but I'm sure I got a passport check on the train in the early days of Eurostar. Did that actually happen, or did I dream that?

You didn't dream it. I remember just this the first time I used Eurostar in March 1996.

 

[D6130]

You didn't dream it. I remember just this the first time I used Eurostar in March 1996.

Yes....a friend of mine who was a passport officer - as I believe they were then called - and a crank got a transfer to the Eurostar on-train checking team just so that he could tick of all the Eurostar sets for haulage!

 

[tgsh2011]

Yes....a friend of mine who was a passport officer - as I believe they were then called - and a crank got a transfer to the Eurostar on-train checking team just so that he could tick of all the Eurostar sets for haulage!

"Passport officer", and in those days in true (then) UK style they wore civilian clothes i.e, a lounge suit for gentleman and equivalent for ladies. Much later did "police" style uniforms come because apparently they were more scary for illegal immigrants

 

[Cloud Strife]

You didn't dream it. I remember just this the first time I used Eurostar in March 1996.

Yes, it worked roughly like this:

When Eurostar first started, the juxtaposed controls were only between London and Brussels. That was because (at the time of signing the relevant treaty), Schengen hadn't been implemented, so Belgium agreed to check passengers in London and to take responsibility for them if they left the train in France for whatever reason.

Passport checks by the UK and France took place on board. In 1998 (or thereabouts), France decided to set up passport control booths in Paris/Calais/Lille instead for both entry and exit. If memory serves, France had big problems with checking everyone too. I'm not sure when the UK started checking people on arrival at Waterloo, but it may have coincided with France doing the same.

It was only in 2001 that the controls were fully juxtaposed between the UK and France on Eurostar.

 

[leytongabriel]

Indeed - annoying that the isolationism of many UK politicians (which has only got very much worse since then) has placed limits on Eurostar's network.

As an aside, I did love the way that when travelling out of Waterloo, you shared your track with classic Southern Region traction such as CEPs and passed through all those familiarly-named Southern stations. A slower journey of course, but going from the ordinary Southern commuter network direct to Paris was quite a novelty when I first did it in 1999.Remember an Evening Standard cartoon of people getting off te

Remember an Evening Standard cartoon of people coming off a new Eurostar fresh out of the tunnel to change to a number 11B (or whatever) tram to Waterloo. The tram was a full Edwardian jobby, open top with frilly railings and presumably a rather limted top speed.

 

[miklcct]

Yes, it worked roughly like this:

When Eurostar first started, the juxtaposed controls were only between London and Brussels. That was because (at the time of signing the relevant treaty), Schengen hadn't been implemented, so Belgium agreed to check passengers in London and to take responsibility for them if they left the train in France for whatever reason.

Passport checks by the UK and France took place on board. In 1998 (or thereabouts), France decided to set up passport control booths in Paris/Calais/Lille instead for both entry and exit. If memory serves, France had big problems with checking everyone too. I'm not sure when the UK started checking people on arrival at Waterloo, but it may have coincided with France doing the same.

It was only in 2001 that the controls were fully juxtaposed between the UK and France on Eurostar.

Is it possible to just do the controls at Ashford (going to the continent) or Lille (going to the UK)? That is, for services to the continent, the reservation will only start at Ashford and passengers can take any HS1 trains adhering to the official connection time (the time needed for border control) there, with Eurostar trains acting as a local train between St Pancras and Ashford in addition to the Southeastern trains.

That is, for a continent-bound journey, a passenger takes any appropriate local services to Ashford, go through the border control there, and take the booked train to the continental destination, and in the reverse direction, takes any appropriate intra-Schengen services to Lille, go through the border control, and take the booked train to the UK destination which can carry local Ashford-London commuters if it stops at Ashford as well.

 

[Wolfie]

Is it possible to just do the controls at Ashford (going to the continent) or Lille (going to the UK)? That is, for services to the continent, the reservation will only start at Ashford and passengers can take any HS1 trains adhering to the official connection time (the time needed for border control) there, with Eurostar trains acting as a local train between St Pancras and Ashford in addition to the Southeastern trains.

That is, for a continent-bound journey, a passenger takes any appropriate local services to Ashford, go through the border control there, and take the booked train to the continental destination, and in the reverse direction, takes any appropriate intra-Schengen services to Lille, go through the border control, and take the booked train to the UK destination which can carry local Ashford-London commuters if it stops at Ashford as well.

Well, the fact that not all Eurostar services go through Lille might be an issue.

The fact that it would cause the journey times of currently direct Eurostar services to be slower might be another.

 

[Cloud Strife]

Is it possible to just do the controls at Ashford (going to the continent) or Lille (going to the UK)? That is, for services to the continent, the reservation will only start at Ashford and passengers can take any HS1 trains adhering to the official connection time (the time needed for border control) there, with Eurostar trains acting as a local train between St Pancras and Ashford in addition to the Southeastern trains.

That is, for a continent-bound journey, a passenger takes any appropriate local services to Ashford, go through the border control there, and take the booked train to the continental destination, and in the reverse direction, takes any appropriate intra-Schengen services to Lille, go through the border control, and take the booked train to the UK destination which can carry local Ashford-London commuters if it stops at Ashford as well.

Theoretically yes, but it would remove the advantage of Eurostar. It's much easier and better for travellers on London-Paris/Brussels to be able to go non-stop to the destination, especially as there's no controls (well, there are customs controls, but they are light) on exit from the stations.

 

[miklcct]

Theoretically yes, but it would remove the advantage of Eurostar. It's much easier and better for travellers on London-Paris/Brussels to be able to go non-stop to the destination, especially as there's no controls (well, there are customs controls, but they are light) on exit from the stations.

There will be one control in the journey. I just propose moving the control from the start of the journey to the middle of the journey, just before the tunnel, in order to minimise border staff requirement and allow trains to carry local passengers throughout the journey.