Ways to breathe a bit of life back into Stranraer

[Dr Hoo]

I think personally it’s about time the Scottish Government poured some well needed investment into Stranraer, rather than focusing on the Central Belt.

Without simply re-circulating the argument of 'let's spend hundreds of millions of pounds reinstating a railway line (that will forever after also require huge amounts of ongoing subsidy) through dozens of miles of nothingness to give a temporary opportunity of a few local labouring jobs' what sort of sustainable investment did you have in mind? Like Cape Wrath and Ardnamurchan, Stranraer is always going to be a bit peripheral and 'exposed'.

 

[Gloster]

I doubt if moving the station to the A77 bridge or the old Town station will ever be viable unless and until the existing station needs rebuilding or refurbishment. One minor advantage of the current location is that the DMU that is stabled overnight is a long way from potential ne’er-do-wells: few vandals are going to traipse all the way along the pier for a bit of ‘fun’.

 

[MarkyT]

Here's a map showing part of a major port redevelopment proposal, including a new station site, from Dumfries & Galloway's "Stranraer Waterfront Urban Design Strategy And Masterplan".

https://www.gov.scot/binaries/content/documents/govscot/publications/factsheet/2018/06/dumfries-and-galloway-council-planning-authority-core-documents/documents/stranraer-waterfront/stranraer-waterfront/govscot%3Adocument/SG%2B-%2BStranraer%2BWaterfront.pdf

...
The regeneration of Stranraer and Loch Ryan waterfront is one of the Council’s priorities. Implementation of the urban design strategy and masterplan will help deliver that priority
...

 

[tbtc]

I've spent my share of Saturday afternoons at Stair Park and the twists and turns of the A77 in the dum and distant past... but (as things stand) Stranraer has a population of close to 10,000 and is around fifty miles from Ayr (pop 50,000ish) and sixty miles from Dumfries (pop 30,000ish) - even Carlisle only has 75,00ish people - and none of these places are awash with jobs.

Glasgow is about ninety miles away, but that's a long way for a daily commute (especially as you'd be talking a round trip of at least four hours, without throwing huge money at infrastructure)

So you're never going to get much in the way of regular trade, even if you re-site the station in the middle of George Street - the location of the station is a minor detail here

If you insist that we must "save" the line, the best thing to do would be to try to attract outsiders to occasionally travel *to* Stranraer, maybe stick up something like Falkirk's Kelpies - pay a few quid for some artist to create something that would give people a reason to sample the delights of Galloway - wouldn't cost too much but might bring people down that way. Otherwise, hope that Ryanair go bust and the ferry trade returns (albeit to Cairnryan)

 

[Scotrail314209]

I've spent my share of Saturday afternoons at Stair Park and the twists and turns of the A77 in the dum and distant past... but (as things stand) Stranraer has a population of close to 10,000 and is around fifty miles from Ayr (pop 50,000ish) and sixty miles from Dumfries (pop 30,000ish) - even Carlisle only has 75,00ish people - and none of these places are awash with jobs.

Glasgow is about ninety miles away, but that's a long way for a daily commute (especially as you'd be talking a round trip of at least four hours, without throwing huge money at infrastructure)

So you're never going to get much in the way of regular trade, even if you re-site the station in the middle of George Street - the location of the station is a minor detail here

If you insist that we must "save" the line, the best thing to do would be to try to attract outsiders to occasionally travel *to* Stranraer, maybe stick up something like Falkirk's Kelpies - pay a few quid for some artist to create something that would give people a reason to sample the delights of Galloway - wouldn't cost too much but might bring people down that way. Otherwise, hope that Ryanair go bust and the ferry trade returns (albeit to Cairnryan)

Stranraer’s decline in a way is like Saltcoats. Saltcoats used to be a bustling and busy place, nowadays it’s more like a ghost town.

If you were to get some attractions into Stranraer, like reasons for people to go there, you could attract some sort of trade. Even advertise hikes along the hills or something

 

[MarkyT]

Stranraer has a population of close to 10,000

The port redevelopment could add increase this significantly, assuming anyone actually wants to move there!

If you insist that we must "save" the line, the best thing to do would be to try to attract outsiders to occasionally travel *to* Stranraer, maybe stick up something like Falkirk's Kelpies - pay a few quid for some artist to create something that would give people a reason to sample the delights of Galloway - wouldn't cost too much but might bring people down that way. Otherwise, hope that Ryanair go bust and the ferry trade returns (albeit to Cairnryan)

Maybe, but a windswept half mile walk across the weed-infested tarmac hardstanding of a derelict former port is hardly an inviting welcome for tourists and day-trippers! If they're going to have to transfer to a coach for the attractions, that might as well come all the way from Glasgow or wherever.

 

[Killingworth]

The railway got to Portpatrick in 1862. The mail steamer service to Ireland moved from Portpatrick to Stranraer in - 1862!

From the 1890s until the late 1940s my grandfather travelled on those boats to return 'home' from Newcastle to Belfast, like so many arriving by train. From Scotland they'd meander down from Ayr. From England they'd meander across from Carlisle. Boat trains were the way to go, fed by returning Irish who'd taken seasonal work and many more who'd stayed. In 1851 over 8% of the population of Newcastle was born in Ireland and by 1914 the percentage with Irish blood was much higher.

The A75 out of Stranraer to England isn't fast. It takes an age to drive after crossing the border at Gretna, so it's no wonder air is now the way to go, and increasingly has been since the 1950s. The A77 north to Ayr isn't fast either, but a lot more convenient than the train for most.

It's a pleasant corner of Scotland to holiday, and we've done that - but using the car. The weather is warmer and less wet than most of Scotland. Tourism is certainly a way to bring more life to the area up to Portpatrick and Stranraer but the present railway is a rail enthusiasts emotive anachronism today.

 

[tbtc]

If the line south of Ayr/Girvan had closed in the 1960s, there'd be regular threads on here about how Stranraer would get hundreds of passengers per day if only it was re-opened.

Stranraer’s decline in a way is like Saltcoats. Saltcoats used to be a bustling and busy place, nowadays it’s more like a ghost town

I know a guy from Saltcoats who's still bitter about the council giving planning permission for an Aldi/ Iceland on the prime bit of land by the harbour. rather than something to attract tourists.

But at least Saltcoats is in commuter distance from Glasgow and "day tripper" distance - Stranraer is out on a limb

The port redevelopment could add increase this significantly, assuming anyone actually wants to move there!

Maybe, but a windswept half mile walk across the weed-infested tarmac hardstanding of a derelict former port is hardly an inviting welcome for tourists and day-trippers! If they're going to have to transfer to a coach for the attractions, that might as well come all the way from Glasgow or wherever.

Good luck to them attracting people - but wherever in the town you put a station, where are the people going to be travelling to/from? I appreciate that the current station site is poor (now that the ferries have moved) and that a windswept peninsula next to some portakabins and industrial fencing twenty minutes walk from the centre of the town doesn't help (it's like a film director would imagine an someone returning to an Eastern Bloc town in the 1980s, an atmospheric but brutal introduction to their hometown) but the geography inside Stranraer isn't the problem, it's the geography of Stranraer relative to the rest of the country.

There's about eighty departing passengers a day (based on an average of around 60,000 passengers per annum over the past five years on the Wiki page), but where are others going to be going to or coming from, even if you open the line to Dumfries and electrify the line as far as Ayr to mean more through Glasgow trains - it's long slow line without anywhere of much population anywhere near Stranraer.

If You Build It, The Might Come (but I really can't see where many additional people will come from)

 

[30907]

Here's a map showing part of a major port redevelopment proposal, including a new station site, from Dumfries & Galloway's "Stranraer Waterfront Urban Design Strategy And Masterplan".

https://www.gov.scot/binaries/content/documents/govscot/publications/factsheet/2018/06/dumfries-and-galloway-council-planning-authority-core-documents/documents/stranraer-waterfront/stranraer-waterfront/govscot%3Adocument/SG%2B-%2BStranraer%2BWaterfront.pdf

Interesting that the proposed station is rather further towards the present oneone than I (and other forum members in past threads) have envisaged, though I can see the sense. In the context of a major regeneration project, I can see it happening - but as a standalone I am doubtful.
Unfortunately the classic BR (et al.) thing of selling off land for development isn't likely to work

 

[Backroom_boy]

It appears that the bus station is at Port Rodie, down by the harbour. The old Town station is around half a mile away to the south-east; it was on the old line to Portpatrick. Putting a platform just north of the A77 bridge, roughly where the car unloading terminal was, would at least produce a better placed station than the present one. They could even send the buses down to the station as there seems to be plenty of room for turning, but they would probably just stick a stop up on the bridge or at the exit out on to the A77.

Looking on streetview there are signals immediatly north and south of the A77 bridge which might need resiting if a platform was built too close (not sure how this works) but I agree looks like logical site for it. However would this be popular locally? It would be a definate statement that the ferrys are never coming back...

 

[Elwyn]

I think it’s safe to say the ferries are never coming back. They left for a couple of reasons. The main one was it’s very shallow at Stranraer harbour, and as ferries get bigger the port was no longer really suitable. Ferries don’t perform well in shallow water (rudders and propellors are less effective) and it was regarded as no longer suitable. You could dredge it of course but that costs money and Cairnryan doesn’t need dredging.

They also save a bit of fuel. 10 - 15 minutes or so is knocked off each journey by not having to go right down to Stranraer itself. That mounts up.

 

[37424]

Interesting that the proposed station is rather further towards the present oneone than I (and other forum members in past threads) have envisaged, though I can see the sense. In the context of a major regeneration project, I can see it happening - but as a standalone I am doubtful.
Unfortunately the classic BR (et al.) thing of selling off land for development isn't likely to work

Inst this a proposal from a few years ago that was abandoned due to cost.

 

[RT4038]

If the line south of Ayr/Girvan had closed in the 1960s, there'd be regular threads on here about how Stranraer would get hundreds of passengers per day if only it was re-opened.



I

There's about eighty departing passengers a day (based on an average of around 60,000 passengers per annum over the past five years on the Wiki page), but where are others going to be going to or coming from, even if you open the line to Dumfries and electrify the line as far as Ayr to mean more through Glasgow trains - it's long slow line without anywhere of much population anywhere near Stranraer.

If You Build It, The Might Come (but I really can't see where many additional people will come from)

It appears that the around 60,000 average passengers per annum is entries and exits at Stranraer, so approximately 30,000 departing per annum. 52 trains per week (8 weekdays and 4 Sundays). Average departure load = 11 Perhaps a salutary lesson as to why so many rural lines to towns of this size were closed 50+ years ago?
Can't see how moving the station is goin to improve this figure much, no matter how much more convenient it may be for the few existing users.

 

[daodao]

It appears that the around 60,000 average passengers per annum is entries and exits at Stranraer, so approximately 30,000 departing per annum. 52 trains per week (8 weekdays and 4 Sundays). Average departure load = 11 Perhaps a salutary lesson as to why so many rural lines to towns of this size were closed 50+ years ago?
Can't see how moving the station is goin to improve this figure much, no matter how much more convenient it may be for the few existing users.

It will be politically unacceptable to close the line. Moving the station to be nearer the town centre should not be prohibitively expensive and would have the following benefits:

• more convenient for existing users
• may encourage some additional patronage
• reduce mileage by about 1 km for NR to maintain and for trains to traverse for no particular benefit

One of the issues with rail development in the UK is that simple small schemes are dismissed as not being worthwhile, whereas grandiose schemes costing billions, such as NPR and the proposed HS2b tunnel from Ringway to Piccadilly in Manchester, are promoted as if money grows on trees.

 

[Killingworth]

To breathe more life into Stranraer needs understanding of the average of 11 passengers per train. That needs local input for I assume some trains load 20-30 while others load 2 or 3. Where, when and how often do they use trains?

But the Stranraer area needs more cars and trucks not a few rail passengers to gain more life. Sorry, that's the way it is. Cars to bring tourists. Trucks for commerce. Freight doesn't use the railway. If we want to make a case for rail that is also a challenge.

 

[Whistler40145]

I've never visited the town centre of Stranraer, only ever visited Stranraer Harbour on railtours.

I realise that the volume of traffic has been reduced with the transfer of ferry services to Cairnryan, so not sure how the situation could be resolved

 

[Gloster]

Looking on streetview there are signals immediatly north and south of the A77 bridge which might need resiting if a platform was built too close (not sure how this works) but I agree looks like logical site for it. However would this be popular locally? It would be a definate statement that the ferrys are never coming back...

I would presume that all signals would be removed and the line would just be a dead-end from the last crossing loop at Dunragit. A few years ago the situation was changed and the signal box could switch out, even though it is at a terminus, and normally One Train Working is in force from Dunragit. There might be a couple of ground frames allowing loco-hauled trains to run-round, but no more would be needed.

 

[RT4038]

To breathe more life into Stranraer needs understanding of the average of 11 passengers per train. That needs local input for I assume some trains load 20-30 while others load 2 or 3. Where, when and how often do they use trains?

But the Stranraer area needs more cars and trucks not a few rail passengers to gain more life. Sorry, that's the way it is. Cars to bring tourists. Trucks for commerce. Freight doesn't use the railway. If we want to make a case for rail that is also a challenge.

Taking an educated guess, I should imagine the (pre-Covid timetable) 07h00 & 08h59 trains out of Stranraer would be the 20-30, and the 19h03 and 21h03 would have 2 or 3, with the middle trains having about 10. The 'regular' passengers might be commuters [education or work] to Ayr (although it is a bit far, but possible) and those doing shopping or business in Ayr or Glasgow.

Even if the ferry was still in Stranraer, I doubt rail passenger traffic would be ever so much better - aeroplanes have taken most of this trade. At the beginning of 2019 I went on the RailSail bus from Ayr and the ferry from Cairnryan, with six other foot passngers!

 

[Scotrail314209]

Taking an educated guess, I should imagine the (pre-Covid timetable) 07h00 & 08h59 trains out of Stranraer would be the 20-30, and the 19h03 and 21h03 would have 2 or 3, with the middle trains having about 10. The 'regular' passengers might be commuters [education or work] to Ayr (although it is a bit far, but possible) and those doing shopping or business in Ayr or Glasgow.

Even if the ferry was still in Stranraer, I doubt rail passenger traffic would be ever so much better - aeroplanes have taken most of this trade. At the beginning of 2019 I went on the RailSail bus from Ayr and the ferry from Cairnryan, with six other foot passngers!

Do Scotrail even widely advertise that rail sail bus? I don’t see many people using it nor do I see scotrail advertising for it. The prices for it see reasonable enough too.

 

[berneyarms]

Air travel and the through Glasgow-Belfast bus service via the ferry put paid to it, once the bus transfer to/from Ayr started.

 

[Ianno87]

Air travel and the through Glasgow-Belfast bus service via the ferry put paid to it, once the bus transfer to/from Ayr started.

Those things had put paid to rail-sea traffic long before the switch to Cairnryan.

 

[berneyarms]

Those things had put paid to rail-sea traffic long before the switch to Cairnryan.

I take your point, but the final death knell for rail/sail on the route was the introduction of a through Belfast-Glasgow coach by Hannon Coaches on the ferry which is a more recent development post the move to Cairnryan.

Who would want to wait around in Cairnryan unnecessarily for 1 hour 40 minutes on a westbound trip on a sail/rail trip, along with an additional change at Ayr usimg Sail/Rail, when a through coach doesn't have that waiting time.

 

[47271]

There have been so many 'masterplans' for Stranraer over the years, including the crackpot super casino of 15 or so years ago. The Monte Carlo of Wigtownshire, aye right. As far as I know the 2014 one is no more likely to be seen through than that.

The local area as it stands looks like a case study in how not to do transport planning, or any other planning for that matter. A railway station marooned on a pier with no ferries, a vast expanse of waste land, apparently with no ideas behind it and for sale, marked out for long departed queuing vehicles between that and the town, and two wastefully competing ferry ports remote from any habitation or economic value half way up Loch Ryan. You couldn't make it up.

As far as I can see, the only immediate hope is that the town discovers some sort of Brexit loophole that turns it into a boomtown freeport. Sadly, knowing Stranraer's fortunes, Brexit will probably have the opposite effect on the peripheral gains it brings from the ferries.

I really don't know what to suggest from a rail development point of view. By all means move the station closer to the town, but the tiny increase in traffic that this would deliver in itself hardly justifies the investment. Restoration of Dumfries-Stranraer has been done to death on this forum, and the conclusion is that it's dead.

Stranraer needs to reinvent itself big time, but there's no evidence of a local wit or a will to do that. This is not a problem that the railway can solve.

 

[Killingworth]

Those things had put paid to rail-sea traffic long before the switch to Cairnryan.

As long ago as 1955 members of my family were loading their car onto an air freighter from Castle Kennedy to Newtonards rather than using the train and/or boat!

 

[Clayton]

I’ve not been into Stranraer but I know the area is absolutely beautiful and feels very remote, even though it’s not really so far from civilisation at Ayr or Carlisle. Those facts may in future attract younger alternative types who can work anywhere and like the outdoors. They’d appreciate the railway. But that would need some creative thinking by the council and the involvement of energetic younger people.

 

[Gloster]

Even allowing for the current trend of moving out of the cities to base yourself in the countryside, which I suspect may start easing off soon, Stranraer is bit extreme. It is not somewhere within an hour’s drive of a motorway or mainline station which allows you to speed to your destination. It is several hours along country roads, even if they have been improved for HGVs, behind said HGVs to the motorway or a long trip on a single-track railway. Most people moving out still need to be near their customers, even if not as close as in the past.

 

[Ianno87]

I’ve not been into Stranraer but I know the area is absolutely beautiful and feels very remote, even though it’s not really so far from civilisation at Ayr or Carlisle. Those facts may in future attract younger alternative types who can work anywhere and like the outdoors. They’d appreciate the railway. But that would need some creative thinking by the council and the involvement of energetic younger people.

You'd almost want to "do a Margate" on the place (somehow) and turn it into some sort of trendy altermative lifestyle spot.

 

[Greybeard33]

It's a pleasant corner of Scotland to holiday, and we've done that - but using the car. The weather is warmer and less wet than most of Scotland. Tourism is certainly a way to bring more life to the area up to Portpatrick and Stranraer but the present railway is a rail enthusiasts emotive anachronism today.

I drove through Stranraer a couple of times in the summer while on holiday in the area. We did not stop - the town looked dismal and uninviting.

Galloway and south Ayrshire have plenty to offer the discriminating tourist, but Stranraer is anything but a honeypot. Portpatrick, in contrast, has managed to reinvent itself as an attractive place to visit, despite the loss of its rail link.

If, in the post-Covid financial crisis, closure of loss-making rural railways again becomes politically palatable, the Stranraer line will surely tick all the boxes.

 

[47271]

You'd almost want to "do a Margate" on the place (somehow) and turn it into some sort of trendy altermative lifestyle spot.

There are parts of Dumfries & Galloway that fit this description, especially around Kirkcudbright, Loch Dee and east towards Thornhill. Portpatrick has also been mentioned. But not by any stretch of the imagination Stranraer.

 

[randyrippley]

If you want to revitalise Stranraer, make the journey something worth doing.
Abandon the railway and any thought of reopening the Carlisle route. Instead build a cable-car system Carlisle-Stranraer
Would be a fantastic scenic journey along some of the most outstanding views in the country, both of sea and mountains. Make the travel the key selling point, not the destination.