WCML Derailment in Cumbria - 29th May 2024

[Falcon1200]

Whilst it would be nice to have it as a diversion, it’s not practical. Nobody has 57’s on their cards anymore. The voyagers are going and there’s not enough 805’s.

Even if there still some 57s available, the number of trains which could realistically be diverted via the S&C, compared to the normal service, would be a tiny fraction, and the question is what would all those locos do when not required for diversions, ie 99% of the time? Not to mention the difficulty, or actually impossibility, of maintaining route knowledge for a sufficient number of traincrew.

 

[Amlag]

Even if there still some 57s available, the number of trains which could realistically be diverted via the S&C, compared to the normal service, would be a tiny fraction, and the question is what would all those locos do when not required for diversions, ie 99% of the time? Not to mention the difficulty, or actually impossibility, of maintaining route knowledge for a sufficient number of traincrew.

I’m sure there are plenty of Enthusiastic FOCs that could provide pilot crews …if there’s a will there’s a way.

 

[QueensCurve]

The point is Avanti won’t pay for anything.
Whilst it would be nice to have it as a diversion, it’s not practical. Nobody has 57’s on their cards anymore. The voyagers are going and there’s not enough 805’s.

Had we forged ahead with electrification, like European countries that invested properly in their infrastructure, only route knowledge would be needed, not diesel traction.

 

[zwk500]

I’m sure there are plenty of Enthusiastic FOCs that could provide pilot crews …if there’s a will there’s a way.

The will to sign the chequebook for that has been somewhat lacking from those in ultimate control of such things.

Had we forged ahead with electrification, like European countries that invested properly in their infrastructure, only route knowledge would be needed, not diesel traction.

The S&C would never have justified electrification, and the Cumbrian coast is not any more likely to justify wires either.
For anything other than diversion to London you'd still need diesel traction.

 

[dk1]

They could be usefully learning the Settle-Carlisle route in preparation of the next blockage......and maybe learning how to drive a diesel for towing the Pendos over the route

None of this is even remotely practical at short notice and would be enormously expensive long term if only in retaining competency.

 

[The Planner]

I’m sure there are plenty of Enthusiastic FOCs that could provide pilot crews …if there’s a will there’s a way.

And they will certainly charge...

 

[QueensCurve]

The S&C would never have justified electrification, and the Cumbrian coast is not any more likely to justify wires either.
For anything other than diversion to London you'd still need diesel traction.

Granted about the Cumbrian Coast. Regarding The Midland, the Traction decarbonisation study states:

Passenger Regional passenger services operating services between Carlisle and Leeds. The line offers a viable diversionary route for the WCML in times of perturbation.
215

Freight Freight services avoiding the WCML operate along this route, particularly slower bulk services such as those carrying construction materials. Electric freight operation would be at least partially reliant on sections NW D and NW E also being electrified. Electrification would improve the attractiveness of the line’s role as a diversionary route. There are a number of freight connections along the line including those at Kirkby Thore and Arcow Quarry.

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/Traction-Decarbonisation-Network-Strategy-Interim-Programme-Business-Case.pdf

Also the will to sign the chequebook on the part of HM Treasury has been somewhat lacking and will remain so.

 

[renegademaster]

And they will certainly charge...

More than delay reapy/cancellation refunds will?

 

[The Planner]

More than delay reapy/cancellation refunds will?

No idea, but is this a case of ringing up a FOC and asking if a driver is free, or is it a case of funding spare resources on the just in case basis of it?

 

[Innerhome1]

The difficulty for those of us living north of Lancaster and south of Motherwell is that the population isn't that great - and at times of disruption the easiest "get out" is to divert Glasgow passengers via the ECML and abandon those from Cumbria and South West Scotland. Abandoning Preston - Glasgow seems to be happening on a fairly regular basis - whether engineering, climate or mishap. The purse strings are controlled by DFT and without some form of political pressure - which just perhaps the new government might provide - use of GSWR/S&C as diversion routes won't happen. I would have thought a direct London service for Kilmarnock/Dumfries once a day would be worth doing - plus one service running via the S&C, Blackburn and direct to Wigan NW. As people have said this requires route knowledge and suitable stock and a modest increase in subsidy.
The parallel I come back to is the arrangement between GWR/SR for running one train each on the others lines between Exeter and Plymouth to ensure they had a diversionary route.

 

[66701GBRF]

More than delay reapy/cancellation refunds will?

I've seen some hire forms and a typical cost for hiring in a freight driver from another company is £2800+VAT per shift. If the hired in driver has to lodge or the turn would make them unavailable the following day then its double rate. Note: Those are company costs/payments, not payments to the driver.

 

[Efini92]

I've seen some hire forms and a typical cost for hiring in a freight driver from another company is £2800+VAT per shift. If the hired in driver has to lodge or the turn would make them unavailable the following day then its double rate. Note: Those are company costs/payments, not payments to the driver.

It’s no wonder they go for buses or do not travel.

 

[E16 Cyclist]

It’s no wonder they go for buses or do not travel.

What lots of people don’t realise is TOC’s agree contingency plans with Network Rail for what happens when a particular part of the route is blocked or unavailable

This takes into account not only the logistics of running a token service or turning trains round but also the impact on the rest of the route. Logistics such as capacity at Carlisle and how much delay southbound services incur as a result

Given this seems to be the standard response these days it seems highly likely that the contingency the TOC’s and Network Rail have agree for this sort of scenario is for Avanti to start and finish at Preston and for TPE to do the same at Carlisle

It may be unpopular for people from the Lake District but it does protect the rest of the network as a result

 

[Carlisle]

The point is Avanti won’t pay for anything.
Whilst it would be nice to have it as a diversion, it’s not practical. Nobody has 57’s on their cards anymore. The voyagers are going and there’s not enough 805’s.

Presumably that was all part of making their initial bid attractive. Essentially save money by axing the GSW route & Voyagers,did any other bids offer to retain either?

 

[Boodiggy]

What lots of people don’t realise is TOC’s agree contingency plans with Network Rail for what happens when a particular part of the route is blocked or unavailable

This takes into account not only the logistics of running a token service or turning trains round but also the impact on the rest of the route. Logistics such as capacity at Carlisle and how much delay southbound services incur as a result

Given this seems to be the standard response these days it seems highly likely that the contingency the TOC’s and Network Rail have agree for this sort of scenario is for Avanti to start and finish at Preston and for TPE to do the same at Carlisle

It may be unpopular for people from the Lake District but it does protect the rest of the network as a result

Thats not quite how contingency plans work.
Network Rail will agree what service can be run when the infrastructure has limited capacity or a part of it is blocked. This will include diversionary routes and capacity at stations and plans for freight.
They don’t mandate what the TOCs have to run.
The choice AWC make not to run north of Preston is not mandated in any contingency plan unless the line is blocked.
There are the IR issues on top of other issues currently that need factored in. That was evident with the derailment over the last few days.

 

[renegademaster]

I've seen some hire forms and a typical cost for hiring in a freight driver from another company is £2800+VAT per shift. If the hired in driver has to lodge or the turn would make them unavailable the following day then its double rate. Note: Those are company costs/payments, not payments to the driver.

300 lots of £40 compensation is £12,000

 

[northrob]

300 lots of £40 compensation is £12,000

Which you're still likely to be paying on top of the hiring in costs, as the diverted train will still be significantly delayed to the original timings.

 

[172007]

The derailed freight looked like steel wagons. What were they carrying if they were from the Hardensale quarry to South Wales?

 

[The Planner]

300 lots of £40 compensation is £12,000

You are assuming Avanti don't budget for delay repay.

 

[Agent_Squash]

What lots of people don’t realise is TOC’s agree contingency plans with Network Rail for what happens when a particular part of the route is blocked or unavailable

This takes into account not only the logistics of running a token service or turning trains round but also the impact on the rest of the route. Logistics such as capacity at Carlisle and how much delay southbound services incur as a result

Given this seems to be the standard response these days it seems highly likely that the contingency the TOC’s and Network Rail have agree for this sort of scenario is for Avanti to start and finish at Preston and for TPE to do the same at Carlisle

It may be unpopular for people from the Lake District but it does protect the rest of the network as a result

What lots of people don’t realise is that the WCML north of Preston isn’t just an Intercity service; it is also a regional express and commuter service in one.

There are no regular buses from Kendal to Penrith; you’d have to go up to Keswick and back over, taking about 3 hours. Likewise, the service between Lancaster and Kendal, and Penrith and Carlisle, is nothing to shout home about.

Avanti’s choice to cut everything north of Preston is purely for operational convenience. They don’t even do the less than an hour round trip to the major university city of Lancaster, despite their being adequate room to terminate and connect onto services round to Carlisle.

Avanti needs to do better.

 

[M&NEJ]

What lots of people don’t realise is that the WCML north of Preston isn’t just an Intercity service; it is also a regional express and commuter service in one.

There are no regular buses from Kendal to Penrith; you’d have to go up to Keswick and back over, taking about 3 hours. Likewise, the service between Lancaster and Kendal, and Penrith and Carlisle, is nothing to shout home about.

Avanti’s choice to cut everything north of Preston is purely for operational convenience. They don’t even do the less than an hour round trip to the major university city of Lancaster, despite their being adequate room to terminate and connect onto services round to Carlisle.

Avanti needs to do better.

+1

When Avanti give up, the service between Lancaster and Kendal or Windermere breaks down most of the time because most hours it depends on a WCML leg to/from Oxenholme connecting with a shuttle on the Windermere branch. I actually believe the Kendal & Windermere service should be hourly from Lancaster or Preston anyway and cut the Oxenholme changes out of the equation!

 

[Zerothebrake!]

The derailed freight looked like steel wagons. What were they carrying if they were from the Hardensale quarry to South Wales?

Used to be limestone for the kilns at Port Talbot Steelworks when I worked it - used to be a heavy train too..remember failing on Soho bank on 27/12 once and had a 58 come up behind and give me a push!

 

[Pinus contorta]

+1

When Avanti give up, the service between Lancaster and Kendal or Windermere breaks down most of the time because most hours it depends on a WCML leg to/from Oxenholme connecting with a shuttle on the Windermere branch. I actually believe the Kendal & Windermere service should be hourly from Lancaster or Preston anyway and cut the Oxenholme changes out of the equation!

I think this goes right back to introduction of the VHF service that came in in Virgin days and several services such as the ones you are suggesting were removed. And in those days the units trundling up to Windermere would only get 75 top speed. Not these modern 195s. So making windermere/cumbrian coast passengers interchange usually works. But not on this occasion.

It's frustrating that right after covid the Avanti 'do not board our service without a seat reservation' quietly forgot this interchange. Another example of the disjointed railway system .

 

[Agent_Squash]

I think this goes right back to introduction of the VHF service that came in in Virgin days and several services such as the ones you are suggesting were removed. And in those days the units trundling up to Windermere would only get 75 top speed. Not these modern 195s. So making windermere/cumbrian coast passengers interchange usually works. But not on this occasion.

It's frustrating that right after covid the Avanti 'do not board our service without a seat reservation' quietly forgot this interchange. Another example of the disjointed railway system .

Windermere was operated by TPE when VHF was introduced - 100mph 185s.

The interchange would still work fine if Avanti decided it would operate the service. But as soon as anything goes wrong, Avanti pretends its route map ends at Preston.

 

[racyrich]

I've seen some hire forms and a typical cost for hiring in a freight driver from another company is £2800+VAT per shift. If the hired in driver has to lodge or the turn would make them unavailable the following day then its double rate. Note: Those are company costs/payments, not payments to the driver.

Are driver contracts exclusive or can they hire themselves out on days off at a more competitive rate, provided they adhere to regs on hours worked? I would think (as an IT contractor myself) that preventing that would be a restraint of trade.

 

[43066]

Are driver contracts exclusive or can they hire themselves out on days off at a more competitive rate, provided they adhere to regs on hours worked? I would think (as an IT contractor myself) that preventing that would be a restraint of trade.

In theory there’s nothing to prevent it, but it isn’t widespread. As you note it would all be subject to Hidden regs, the driver signing the route and traction etc. There are some freight drivers on zero hours type contracts who can accept or turn away work, but relatively few and far between, and tend to be winding down to retirement.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Are driver contracts exclusive or can they hire themselves out on days off at a more competitive rate, provided they adhere to regs on hours worked? I would think (as an IT contractor myself) that preventing that would be a restraint of trade.

That isn't illegal per se, but it would be a breach of contract for most drivers.

It would also contravene a whole host of binding internal industry rules and guidance around rest periods and competency management.

A driver is also required to be licensed and sponsored by an organisation (normally a TOC) holding a railway safety case - which a solo driver would not be able to do.

So, no - a driver can't unilaterally offer themselves. The closest you get is zero hour contract drivers working for borderline rogue operators such as West Coast Railways.

 

[Carlisle]

borderline rogue operators such as West Coast Railways.

Thats your opinion, but not necessarily factual as plenty of TOCs have had incidents throughout their existence.

 

[43066]

Thats your opinion, but not necessarily factual as plenty of TOCs have had incidents throughout their existence.

Which other TOCs have, more than once, been banned from operating on the network by the ORR due to unsafe practices?

It’s no secret West Coast Railways have a bad reputation within the industry, not helped by the recent debacle over central door locking.

 

[Western Sunset]

This is the second recent incident where a set of trap points haven't kept the derailed vehicles from encroaching onto the running line clearance envelope. The other being West Ealing.

Is there a need to review the layout/design of trap points, so that any over-runs do not foul adjoining lines?