WCML electrification plans post-1966 at the time: what was being considered?

[70014IronDuke]

Even before the original WCML electrification was coming to a close in 1965-66, thought must have been given to extend northwards from Weaver Jcn to Glasgow (ok, Motherwell) immediately, with the strong argument that it had to come and by doing it then the electrification design and implementation teams could be kept together, thus conserving valuable experience and saving money overall.

I'm sure I must have read about at the time, but can't actually remember anything. Presumably, this was too costly a project in those tough economic times, and with no certainty that the limited WCML project would be so successful.

But what about doing what was probably called at the time the “sensible compromise”, ie the approx 34 miles Weaver Jcn to Preston?

Or if even that were too large a bill to swallow, the mere 7.5 miles to Warrington BQ? (Not sure if the facilities there then would have allowed for a traction change?)

True, the latter would only have meant 24 extra miles of electric traction towards Glasgow, but even that would have been approx 10% of the distance Crewe- Glasgow could have switched to electric traction. There might have been the need for an extra handful AL6s perhaps, but it would have saved building, what 10-12 Class 50s? (More if they'd been prepared to keep some steam in use in the north-west for a year or two longer.)

Were any of these add-ons ever seriously considered at the time? None perfect, but they would have been far cheaper than the full distance (of course), and better utilised the 17 miles of wires already installed from Crewe to Weaver.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Is it true that the announcement of the planned further electrification of the WCML, from Weaver Junction to Glasgow, wasn't made until March 1970, the announcement only coming out a matter of days before a key parliamentary by-election up in Scotland?

 

[tbwbear]

Have a look at the railwaysarchive.co.uk

Route Improvements Electrification- Weaver Junction to Glasgow

A very interesting document from April 1968


“ Just to Preston” could have made sense but….

The proposal was only ever to do the whole thing in one go - including possible add on to Blackpool, Edinburgh and Liverpool / Manchester via Newton Le Willows

Interesting maps at the end of the 84 page document

I think it was refused as a whole in 68/69 and granted in 70/71.

 

[Dr Hoo]

The long route had to be rationalised and re-signalled first, for electrification to have any chance of a business case or to be delivered reasonably briskly once started.

 

[tbwbear]

The long route had to be rationalised and re-signalled first, for electrification to have any chance of a business case or to be delivered reasonably briskly once started.

Yes, the April 1968 report at the railwaysarchives.co.uk contained an option for rationalisation and re-signalling only (with double-headed Class 50s) and an option for full electrification. According to O S Nock in his book "Electric, Euston to Glasgow", the delay in choosing authorising/either was partly due to issues with Government expenditure following the 1967 devaluation of the pound.

By 1969 it seems the Government was tending towards "rationalisation and resignalling" only - the BRB was still discussing whether to (at extra-cost) immunise the signalling for future electrification. The whole project including electrification was then authorised by the Government, with little warning given to the BRB, in early 1970.

In the meantime, some incremental rationalisation had already been taking place (in 68 and 69), enough for the speed up (with double 50s) in the 1970 timetable.

Of course, the 1970 timings then had to be relaxed again for the electrification work from 1971. The 1005 ex-Euston "Royal Scot" going from 6 hours 50 mins to Glasgow in 1969/70, to 5 hours 54 mins in 1970//71 and back to 6 hrs 33 mins in 1971/2 (all inclusive of 9 minutes traction-change at Crewe).

Nock also claims that the first tentative proposals for Weaver J to Glasgow had actually been made by the BRB 7 years before they were finally authorised. So that would suggest 1963, 3 years before the first Euston-Liverpool / Manchester services started.

 

[randyrippley]

Interesting to note that the required pre-electrification rebuild of Carlisle Bridge in Lancaster took place 1962-63, well before electrification was approved (and while the diversion via Green Ayre & Morecambe was still available)

 

[GRALISTAIR]

https://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/BRB_WCML001.pdf

Link if required

While devalution itself has little direct effect on the financial
justification, the notional economic situation has led the
Government% to suggest deferment to reduce capital spending in the
nationalised industries, It is now concluded that this scheme
should not be me of the railway projects to be deferred because
several of the opportunities to be grasped will rapidly lose their
value or impact even if delayed by a year or so

Sorry for the quote quality - old scanned document

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

You could argue that with the limited resources and finance then available, electrification north of Preston wasn't the best value for money and should have been used instead to make a start on the ECML to Leeds and York. Ossie Nock, unusually, is quite scathing of BR in his book, noting the still uncompetitive 'Electric Scot' timings and thin service, and the lack of electrification of the Manchester, Liverpool and Blackpool branches.

 

[Ken H]

Was Crewe Glasgow staged at all. Or was it a big bang with diesel all the way one day and electric all the way the next?

 

[tbwbear]

Was Crewe Glasgow staged at all. Or was it a big bang with diesel all the way one day and electric all the way the next?

On the passenger timetable side there were just two stages - Crewe to Preston was completed in July 1973 and then the whole thing in May 1974.

I think freight started to Warrington in late 1972.

IIRC the last section to actually be energised was Preston to Carlisle, Motherwell to Glasgow having been completed a little earlier.

 

[Helvellyn]

Interesting to see that the original 1960s electrification proposals would have closed not only the S&C as a through route but Hellifield-Carnforth as well, but the Keswick branch was listed for rationalisation/resignalling!

 

[70014IronDuke]

Have a look at the railwaysarchive.co.uk

Route Improvements Electrification- Weaver Junction to Glasgow

A very interesting document from April 1968


“ Just to Preston” could have made sense but….

The proposal was only ever to do the whole thing in one go - including possible add on to Blackpool, Edinburgh and Liverpool / Manchester via Newton Le Willows

Interesting maps at the end of the 84 page document

I think it was refused as a whole in 68/69 and granted in 70/71.

This is a very interesting document, a definite worthy read. Discussion good too.

Except - possibly because my thread title wasn't clear enough - this is not quite the time period I was asking about, as it is clearly after the completion of Euston-Manchester+Liverpool lines, and the implementation teams must have been dispersed.

What I was seeking to ascertain was: Was there thinking in the years, c 1964-65, ie before electrification was completed into Euston, to press on immediately northwards from Weaver after the main Manchester/Liverpool and Brum-Wolverhampton-Stafford schemes - thereby keeping all the design team and implementation teams together? viz a rolling electrification programme?

Perhaps nobody thought to do this, at least not seriously enough to present a business plan, until the Manchester+Liverpool schemes had proved successful?

 

[tbwbear]

Perhaps nobody thought to do this, at least not seriously enough to present a business plan, until the Manchester+Liverpool schemes had proved successful?

To quote from Nock (page 31) talking about the final approval in 1970.....

It had taken 7 years in all to secure this decision because, as previously mentioned, the first tentative proposals were made well before the Euston-Birmingham-Liverpool-Manchester scheme was completed, in an attempt to secure continuity of effort.

My take from that is they started talking about it in 1963, as a whole project, and it took 5 years - for one reason and another - to get to the formal proposal stage. Presumably the Government of the day was indicating informally how receptive (or not) it would be to a formal proposal being made ? That was obviously not done until 1968, so presumably the great success of the initial scheme (apparent from 1966) was a big factor in the proposal in 1968.

Edited to add - I think the Weaver Junction to Glasgow project was being talked about openly long before 1968. The May 1966 edition of Modern Railways reports on "encouraging noises" from Mrs Castle (the new transport secretary) about the GN electrification to Hitchin / Royston (actually completed in 1976) being authorised as well as the WCML plan and expresses worries about whether there will be enough qualified manpower to tackle both jobs at the same time !

 

[randyrippley]

Surely the 1962/3 rebuild of Carlisle Bridge is all you need to show that someone was planning electrification north of Preston in the early 60s

 

[70014IronDuke]

To quote from Nock (page 31) talking about the final approval in 1970.....

It had taken 7 years in all to secure this decision because, as previously mentioned, the first tentative proposals were made well before the Euston-Birmingham-Liverpool-Manchester scheme was completed, in an attempt to secure continuity of effort.

My take from that is they started talking about it in 1963, as a whole project, and it took 5 years - for one reason and another - to get to the formal proposal stage. Presumably the Government of the day was indicating informally how receptive (or not) it would be to a formal proposal being made ? That was obviously not done until 1968, so presumably the great success of the initial scheme (apparent from 1966) was a big factor in the proposal in 1968.

Edited to add - I think the Weaver Junction to Glasgow project was being talked about openly long before 1968. The May 1966 edition of Modern Railways reports on "encouraging noises" from Mrs Castle (the new transport secretary) about the GN electrification to Hitchin / Royston (actually completed in 1976) being authorised as well as the WCML plan and expresses worries about whether there will be enough qualified manpower to tackle both jobs at the same time !

Yes, this was my feeling (but I had no clear memory) - all the above makes sense.

Surely the 1962/3 rebuild of Carlisle Bridge is all you need to show that someone was planning electrification north of Preston in the early 60s

Well, it may well be all you need - but I don't even know which bridge this is - presumably the big one to the north of Lancaster Castle station, across the Lune Valley? Could you explain why it proves your point? Did it not have to be rebuilt in 62-3, except if electrification was planned? If it had to be rebuilt anyway, then it would make sense to ensure it was compliant with electrification clearances etc, as clearly there was a good chance eventually of putting wires up.

 

[d9009alycidon]

On the passenger timetable side there were just two stages - Crewe to Preston was completed in July 1973 and then the whole thing in May 1974.

I think freight started to Warrington in late 1972.

IIRC the last section to actually be energised was Preston to Carlisle, Motherwell to Glasgow having been completed a little earlier.

IIRC the last bit was Eglinton Street Tunnels, which had been held up due to issues with the paved track. The West Side of the Cathcart Circle was converted from 6.25kV to 25kV as an alternative route for driver training.

 

[BeijingDave]

Or if even that were too large a bill to swallow, the mere 7.5 miles to Warrington BQ? (Not sure if the facilities there then would have allowed for a traction change?)

Doubtful when compared to Crewe or Preston.

Especially when considering Platform 1 and then Platform 5 (now Platform 4) would have been being used for the regular Manchester - Chester services (including Newcastle - Llandudno in many cases).

 

[Strathclyder]

The West Side of the Cathcart Circle was converted from 6.25kV to 25kV as an alternative route for driver training.

One step in rendering the dual-voltage capabilities of the 303s redundant (the 311s were never built with it IIRC) there, though - drifting way off-topic here I know - am not sure when the 6.25kV sections of the North Clyde Line were converted to 25kV.

Sticking with the Glasgow/Strathclyde aspect of this topic, was the Lanark branch always part of the wider Weaver Jn - Glasgow scheme, or was it added later?

 

[Dr Hoo]

Both the Hamilton Circle and Lanark were add-ons. ISTR that some equipment was ‘salvaged’ from singling the Balloch branch and re-used.

 

[6Gman]

On the passenger timetable side there were just two stages - Crewe to Preston was completed in July 1973 and then the whole thing in May 1974.

I think freight started to Warrington in late 1972.

IIRC the last section to actually be energised was Preston to Carlisle, Motherwell to Glasgow having been completed a little earlier.

The chaos at Preston in that year 1973-74 underlined the wisdom of electrifying throughout.

I spent a summer Saturday during that period and the lengthy platform occupation during engine changes delayed everything else, the dislocation of which then delayed engine changes, which then delayed everything else, which . . .

 

[MadMac]

Both the Hamilton Circle and Lanark were add-ons. ISTR that some equipment was ‘salvaged’ from singling the Balloch branch and re-used.

They were done at the same time, albeit as a "variation" to the original scheme. Equipment recovered from the Balloch singling was used on the Lanark branch.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

On the passenger timetable side there were just two stages - Crewe to Preston was completed in July 1973 and then the whole thing in May 1974.

I think freight started to Warrington in late 1972.

IIRC the last section to actually be energised was Preston to Carlisle, Motherwell to Glasgow having been completed a little earlier.

Incredible performance by the construction teams unlike the pathetic time Colton to Church Fenton is taking.

 

[L+Y]

I'm sure I read somewhere that Weaver-Glasgow electrification was authorised in a panic by the Wilson Government at the beginning of 1970, following the loss of a safe Labour seat in Glasgow at a by-election: does anybody have any memory of this?

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Yes I remember politics intervened- still I don’t care it got done which was important.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I'm sure I read somewhere that Weaver-Glasgow electrification was authorised in a panic by the Wilson Government at the beginning of 1970, following the loss of a safe Labour seat in Glasgow at a by-election: does anybody have any memory of this?

I've heard that also. Think the constituency may have been South Ayrshire.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Yes I remember politics intervened- still I don’t care it got done which was important.

and very quickly constructed unlike today

 

[MadMac]

I've heard that also. Think the constituency may have been South Ayrshire.

There was a South Ayrshire by-election in 1970, but Labour won it comfortably. They had also been run close by the SNP in Glasgow Pollok in 1967 - perhaps this, coupled with the loss in Hamilton, had the Wilson government rattled?

 

[Ken H]

and very quickly constructed unlike today

we didnt have the massive overhead of paying TOC's for the disruption caused to their services then. They basically got on with it while passengers found alternative routes.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

There was a South Ayrshire by-election in 1970, but Labour won it comfortably. They had also been run close by the SNP in Glasgow Pollok in 1967 - perhaps this, coupled with the loss in Hamilton, had the Wilson government rattled?

If only it was that simple now!

 

[GRALISTAIR]

and very quickly constructed unlike today

And I was living 4 miles north of Preston at the start of the Barton loop at the time with my parents. I watched all the bridges being raised then foundations dug, polystyrene insets and concrete poured. PS burnt out, masts in, grouted, SPS and cantilevers installed and the wire runs. First electrics then squadron service introduct of Class 87s. Then for years the wiring train laid up at Ladywell House in Preston in anticipation of Blackpool being wired. Great memories