WCML Preston-Carlisle: prospects for Monday

[Starmill]

Massivebus sell you a ticket from Stop a - stop B and drive between the two dropping you off safely. Their responsibility for you ends at that point

Massivetrain sell you a ticket from station A to Station B.

Sadly the line is blocked and the train had to terminate at an alternative station. It is very wet so the line is flooded. Massivetrain arrange a bus replacement service for you but you have to walk a little way to reach it before you continue on your journey as the road to the station has flooded. you get off the train and walk to the bus and enjoy a nice ling ride to station B

Only when you reach station B safely is the duty extinguished. At all times between the 2 you are still in their care. If something happens to you whilst walking to the bus or the bus crashes etc etc Massivetrain have failed, prima facie, to have adequately discharged their duty.

I think the point about arse-covering is essentially the valid one, and that is the reason why TOCs might not want to offer a service. However I do think that you're being rather dramatic about it, which is funny given the number of times I've seen you level this particular charge at others making less fuss than you have here. It's clear that there are times when buses will not be departing from anywhere near a station and people tripping over when trying to get to the bus isn't really anything to do with the train company if they're advertising that the service will go from elsewhere. I wouldn't be totally clear on the legal position, but then I don't trust you because you're obviously just enjoying making a fuss and calling other people foolish, plus haven't offered much evidence.

I think that there is a strong element of the problem being that there is still difficulty in sourcing buses. So yes on the whole you are probably more right than Neil for the moment - at least until conditions improve and more buses might be available. But you're the one (as you and several others just love to do on these boards) criticising people's intelligence over it so don't consider yourself to have won! That's all I need say on the bus-replacement saga!

 

[DelayRepay]

I think that there is a strong element of the problem being that there is still difficulty in sourcing buses. So yes on the whole you are probably more right than Neil for the moment - at least until conditions improve and more buses might be available. But you're the one (as you and several others just love to do on these boards) criticising people's intelligence over it so don't consider yourself to have won! That's all I need say on the bus-replacement saga!

Not just buses but also drivers. If I was a bus driver in Cumbria and I was called asking to go into work, I would have refused. In those conditions I would want to stay at home where it is hopefully safe. Plus I would want to be at home so I was in a position to act if my home looked like it was going to be flooded, or if any friends or neighbours in the area needed assistance. I would not want to attempt to drive to my workplace, especially given the road conditions.

That is all assuming that (i) I hadn't already been evacuated from my home and (ii) I had a means of getting to the depot given the number of roads that were blocked/closed.

 

[DarloRich]

I think the point about arse-covering is essentially the valid one, and that is the reason why TOCs might not want to offer a service. However I do think that you're being rather dramatic about it, which is funny given the number of times I've seen you level this particular charge at others making less fuss than you have here. It's clear that there are times when buses will not be departing from anywhere near a station and people tripping over when trying to get to the bus isn't really anything to do with the train company if they're advertising that the service will go from elsewhere. I wouldn't be totally clear on the legal position, but then I don't trust you because you're obviously just enjoying making a fuss and calling other people foolish, plus haven't offered much evidence.

I think that there is a strong element of the problem being that there is still difficulty in sourcing buses. So yes on the whole you are probably more right than Neil for the moment - at least until conditions improve and more buses might be available. But you're the one (as you and several others just love to do on these boards) criticising people's intelligence over it so don't consider yourself to have won! That's all I need say on the bus-replacement saga!

I don't disagree that running a bus, even if it cant stop right at the station door is better than leaving people, effectively, stranded. And whilst i may be over egging things to make a point it is the 1 or 2 people who will have a problem walking between the station and the bus who will require the most time and money to placate.

My point is that while the idea is very sensible it isn't as easy as suggested. The issues are far from insurmountable but require a little bit of thought, especially with regard to those unable to walk that distance for whatever reason.

PS if you are unsure about the legal position there are all manner of interesting examples of case law out there. Start with Donoghue v Stevenson [1932]. Another useful one is Caparo Industries plc v Dickman [1990] but there are lots to look at.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Despite all the Do Not Travel advice, 1S36 appears to have reached Tebay this morning en route to Carlisle.
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P54590/2015/12/07/advanced
Is this fiction?

In fact, several TPE and VT services appear to have reached Carlisle from the south.
So it's not as black as is being painted.
Or is RTT making it up?
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/CAR/2015/12/07/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

Meanwhile on NRE:

Trains between England and Scotland are not running between Preston and Scotland. Passengers are advised not to travel.
It is expected that the line between Preston and Carlisle / Scotland will remain closed on Monday 7 and Tuesday 8 December. More details will be published when available

 

[Bletchleyite]

NRE is incorrect - VT's site states that they will be running to Carlisle, as it seems they are.

The real thing that is wrong here is information, quite apart from whether buses are run or not - be that on the ground (last Sunday was terrible in that regard) or online. There is no excuse for this to be wrong, and it is.

 

[AndrewE]

NRE is incorrect - VT's site states that they will be running to Carlisle, as it seems they are.

The real thing that is wrong here is information, quite apart from whether buses are run or not - be that on the ground (last Sunday was terrible in that regard) or online. There is no excuse for this to be wrong, and it is.

I agree in principle, but I can imagine "them" a) not wanting to be swamped by a deluge of passengers straight away and
b) starting up cautiously as they have no idea what is going to fall over again or what other faults might emerge (like more landslips)...

far better to have a few trains out and not too many people to cope with than the other possibility, I think.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree in principle, but I can imagine "them" a) not wanting to be swamped by a deluge of passengers straight away and
b) starting up cautiously as they have no idea what is going to fall over again or what other faults might emerge (like more landslips)...

far better to have a few trains out and not too many people to cope with than the other possibility, I think.

Except that it clearly is not conspiracy, as VT's own site says they are running. It's clearly the inability to communicate properly.

 

[Class 170101]

There certainly will be some buses available somewhere in the country, at the right price..

Assuming they are not in use supplementing services in connection with the Forth Bridge Road closure.

Secondly where is the block north of Carlisle? Is the GSW route affected?

 

[ItsGrimUpNorth]

The flooding was literally 500m north of Carlisle Station, before the various junctions up there.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I agree that would be a good idea in the ideal world. However, you are still failing, perhaps deliberately, to grasp the point about those unable to walk that distance or how those with baggage are delivered to this point. How should an already stretched workforce ensure their duty of care to these passengers ( and the others waiting at the station) is discharged?

While the circumstances are slightly different, that reasoning doesn't seem to stop SouthEastern from doing something comparable to what Neil Williams is suggesting: The line between Plumstead and Dartford is quite often closed at weekends (presumably for CrossRail-related engineering works). At Abbey Wood, the replacement buses make no attempt to go near the station, but instead stop at some local bus stops about 200m away. The distance is much smaller, but still enough to cause problems for anyone who is frail or has heavy baggage who arrives at the station, and there's also no way you'd be able to see from the station where the buses are. So if SouthEastern can do that, presumably that kind of solution it is possible (although I realize in current conditions in the NW, arranging almost anything is going to be much harder at the moment).

 

[6Gman]

As I type this BBC News is showing one of the main roads through Carlisle.

It is passable. Just.

BUT it is also littered with debris and emergency service staff sorting things out.

It would probably be very helpful to them if their work wasn't disrupted by a convoy of RRCs making their way through the area. Especially if a driver was to misjudge the situation and we would then have a broken down coach to add to their problems!

In such circumstances a total "we are running no services" might be the wisest course of action.

There will be a small number of "marooned" people who need to travel. This can be arranged by taxi/ friends/ family etc.

The danger of offering a service is that it won't just be used by those with a genuine need to travel but will end up being swamped (sorry!) by a volume of traffic which will impair recovery.

And - of course - that's assuming that coaches and drivers can be sourced.

(I suspect that a Preston - Carlisle - Preston round trip would take thick end of 6 hours; so work out how many coaches and drivers per day that will take)

Note: My railway career included arranging RRCs.

 

[Tetchytyke]

NRE is incorrect - VT's site states that they will be running to Carlisle, as it seems they are.

NRE's website is saying the same thing if you read past the headline and the garbled English. Trains are running to Carlisle, but no further, and there is no road transport beyond. Lancaster station will close at dusk unless emergency lighting can be found. The Barrow and Windermere branches are closed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

NRE's website is saying the same thing if you read past the headline. Trains are running to Carlisle, but no further, and there is no road transport beyond. Lancaster station will close at dusk unless emergency lighting can be found. The Barrow and Windermere branches are closed.

Power has, according to BBC News, been restored to Lancaster except those areas under water. This would I expect include the station, as it is on just about as high ground as there is in Lancaster.

If the headline is incorrect, as it is, it needs fixing. There is no excuse for poor information. It is really, really easy to get it right - far easier than any operational thing.

 

[atillathehunn]

What happens to passengers has been covered extensively.

But what happens to freight?

There are a good half a dozen trains which are due to run every day between points south of Preston to points north and vice versa.

What happens there? I'm sure a few of them have time critical of fresh produce in them. Are there diversions?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Given that the produce doesn't complain or argue, it's probably an awful lot easier to arrange a rail replacement lorry service
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There will be a small number of "marooned" people who need to travel. This can be arranged by taxi/ friends/ family etc.

Or their cars, if they have them and they are not damaged. Is a parade of cars preferable to one RRC?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
NRE also has this piece of wibble:-

Lancaster station will remain closed due to no power at the station however, services will be able to call at this station during daylight hours. Virgin Trains are attempting to source some emergency lighting in order for services to be able to call there later this evening.

What they mean is:

Lancaster station is presently open though the ticket office is closed; tickets can be purchased on board your train. However, due to a lack of power it will close, and cease to be served at, <insert specified time>, as it is not safe to operate with no lighting from dusk. The <time> train to <destination> will be the last train to serve the station today and there will be no replacement bus service.

Virgin Trains are attempting to source emergency lighting to allow a service after this time; updates will be provided as and when they are available. Passengers are still advised to avoid travel if at all possible. However if travel is unavoidable they should plan to do so as early as possible, as it is likely emergency lighting will not be available, in which case they may need to use other methods of transport at their own cost to reach Lancaster after the time specified.

It took me 30 seconds to type that. How hard is it?

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Given that the produce doesn't complain or argue, it's probably an awful lot easier to arrange a rail replacement lorry service
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Or their cars, if they have them and they are not damaged. Is a parade of cars preferable to one RRC?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
NRE also has this piece of wibble:-

Lancaster station will remain closed due to no power at the station however, services will be able to call at this station during daylight hours. Virgin Trains are attempting to source some emergency lighting in order for services to be able to call there later this evening.

What they mean is:

Lancaster station is presently open though the ticket office is closed; tickets can be purchased on board your train. However, due to a lack of power it will close, and cease to be served at, <insert specified time>, as it is not safe to operate with no lighting from dusk. The <time> train to <destination> will be the last train to serve the station today and there will be no replacement bus service.

Virgin Trains are attempting to source emergency lighting to allow a service after this time; updates will be provided as and when they are available. Passengers are still advised to avoid travel if at all possible. However if travel is unavoidable they should plan to do so as early as possible, as it is likely emergency lighting will not be available, in which case they may need to use other methods of transport at their own cost to reach Lancaster after the time specified.

It took me 30 seconds to type that. How hard is it?

And what if the decision is made on the ground which doesn't tie in with the website content. It's far safer for all concerned to insist the station is closed and not mess people around with times which are subject to change at very, very short notice.

We're still discussing a flood hit area where significant safety concerns could arise at any moment - a ruptured gas pipe, sewage contamination etc, so it's entirely correct and proper what is made publicly available errs very much on the side of protecting the public, mainly from their own stupidity.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And what if the decision is made on the ground which doesn't tie in with the website content. It's far safer for all concerned to insist the station is closed and not mess people around with times which are subject to change at very, very short notice.

But they are not insisting it is closed. Read the paragraph properly - it is contradictory.

Information on NRE should not conflict with information on TOC sites. If they can't get it right, they should simply link to each TOC site and give up.

FWIW, TOC procedures on any decision involving the opening or lack thereof of any service should also include the timely and accurate update of any passenger information provided. Clearly this is not happening here, and this is not good enough. It's 2015. It is not hard. Someone could be tweeting from the ground at Lancaster station from a mobile phone, if it came to it, and NRE linking to that. But in reality VT Control will be making decisions, and those decisions need to go speedily and accurately onto any and all passenger information media.

As another example, something very noticeable is that these days passengers with RTT and Twitter get more information than staff. This is not acceptable. It needs fixing.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

NRE's website is saying the same thing if you read past the headline and the garbled English. Trains are running to Carlisle, but no further, and there is no road transport beyond. Lancaster station will close at dusk unless emergency lighting can be found. The Barrow and Windermere branches are closed.

The Lancaster-Barrow service has been running since about 1100.
And the Barrow-Workington.

 

[OneOffDave]

Using the last bus stop before the city centre in Lancaster was unlikely to be feasible as it's just before the roundabout that serves the hospital and on one of the main routes for ambulances from the south of the city to get there. There's also very little room for passengers to queue and vehicles to be marshalled. Parking/dropping off points for anyone wishing to catch a replacement bus would also be very limited. Based on my experience in major incidents, the options will have been discussed and the impact considered. VTWC won't be making this decision in isolation. The local authority and the police will usually be involved. Also worth remembering that if the power is out, the traffic lights will be too. Lancaster gridlocks fairly easily at the best of times, though usually the Greyhound and Skerton bridges are involved.

 

[Andyh82]

I can't see why rail replacement buses can't run avoiding the affected area entirely?

I.e running from Preston to Glasgow direct, skipping Lancaster and Carlisle? Or from Preston and whatever station North of Carlisle is open and able to accommodate terminating trains and buses?

I'm guessing the M6 is open and running normally?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Trains are now running as far as Carlisle (with a replacement bus Preston-Lancaster as the power is off throughout Lancaster). So no need.

North of Carlisle still nowt, though I suppose there's a lot of empty space there and a lot less to serve, and passengers can always go via the ECML. I believe expectation is that service will be restored tomorrow or Wednesday, probably tomorrow.

 

[dk1]

As said there are trains operating to Carlisle & across the Tyne Valley to Newcastle. I know I'd rather be on a train than a bus reguardless of journey time. No need to provide alternative road transport really.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

As said there are trains operating to Carlisle & across the Tyne Valley to Newcastle. I know I'd rather be on a train than a bus reguardless of journey time. No need to provide alternative road transport really.

But there are franchise commitments to run those services...
Is anyone "paying" for the disruption?
Network Rail have obligations too.

 

[DarloRich]

But there are franchise commitments to run those services...
Is anyone "paying" for the disruption?
Network Rail have obligations too.

Network Rail will be paying for the disruption as it is weather related.

 

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

I know I'd rather be on a train than a bus reguardless of journey time. No need to provide alternative road transport really

Good for you. But most people simply want to get from A to B as efficiently as possible - which Carlisle to Glasgow via Newcastle isn't. Therefore the majority of people would rather a bus service was provided.

 

[cumbrianbill]

I appreciate that poor weather affects all of us, but I was one of the people turning up at Glasgow Central on Saturday afternoon with a ticket to Carlisle with Virgin staff shrugging their shoulders and advising "Come back on Monday."
There was talk of using the slow Scotrail alternative via Dumfries, but no guarantee that there'd be any way to get from Dumfries to Carlisle.
National Express coaches were running from Glasgow to Carlisle. I unfortunately missed one by 5 minutes at Hamilton, and ended up at Carlisle at 00:30 and able to pick up my car before the worst of the flooding arrived in Carlisle.
Why would there be no advice about the road option?

 

[Elecman]

Virgin hoping to run services tomorrow to Scotland subject to some 20 mph PWay slacks

 

[Crossover]

Looks like Windermere has been operating for the latter part of the day, with what I can only presume was a route proving train going to Windermere around lunchtime, before going into, and staying in service on the branch for the day

 

[DarloRich]

Good for you. But most people simply want to get from A to B as efficiently as possible - which Carlisle to Glasgow via Newcastle isn't. Therefore the majority of people would rather a bus service was provided.

The research the TOCs recently received was that people wanted to stay on the train rather than use a bus ( although Carlisle - Glasgow via Newcastle is extreme!)

 

[PHILIPE]

The research the TOCs recently received was that people wanted to stay on the train rather than use a bus ( although Carlisle - Glasgow via Newcastle is extreme!)

VT West Coast would rather bus than divert via the S&C by all indications, i.e. not route refreshing that way any more.