WCML vs ECML

[dave59]

What a poor relation the West Coast operation is compared to the ECML. Just 13 direct EUS-GLC services today (Saturday) each running well over five hours. LNER in comparison have no less than 32 trains KGX-EDB, many at near weekday timings. Is there so little demand to GLC at weekends such that Avanti can just abandon any thought of a serious operation?

 

[footprints]

Some lines are closed between Watford Junction and Euston, while trains between Crewe and Stafford have to divert via Stoke-on-Trent.

 

[waverley47]

Demand for Glasgow is just lesser as well, there was a thread on this recently.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Probably a lot more of demand for journeys to/from intermediate stations on the WCML, say Euston to Manchester, rather than Kings Cross to Doncaster. But, for end-to-end travel, the OP quite possibly has a point.

 

[AJDesiro]

There’s a lot of engineering work going on today all around the west coast, as posted above, so it’s not surprising. Birmingham-Soho is shut too, meaning there’s no Glasgow-Bhm-London services. It’s annoying, but engineering works aren’t done for no reason.

 

[Iskra]

Why aren’t you counting London Euston to Edinburgh trains?

And then you’re ignoring that the WCML serves more places half way up the country, more regularly- Birmingham, Manchester, Chester/North Wales and Liverpool regularly, with TP also serving the Northern half of the line regularly.

Seems a bit of a skewed and odd whine.

 

[Watershed]

Seems a bit of a skewed and odd whine.

I think it's reasonable to observe that there are far fewer services between Glasgow and London than between Edinburgh and London - despite Glasgow having a larger population, and a much larger hinterland.

However, there is far more leisure demand between Edinburgh and London, and Edinburgh to London services serve several other large intermediate markets, such as Newcastle and York, whereas Glasgow to London fast services only serve comparitively smaller markets such as the stations from Warrington to Lancaster and the Lake District.

 

[Iskra]

I think it's reasonable to observe that there are far fewer services between Glasgow and London than between Edinburgh and London - despite Glasgow having a larger population, and a much larger hinterland.

However, there is far more leisure demand between Edinburgh and London, and Edinburgh to London services serve several other large intermediate markets, such as Newcastle and York, whereas Glasgow to London fast services only serve comparitively smaller markets such as the stations from Warrington to Lancaster and the Lake District.

Yes, but the OP referenced the West Coast Operation, while citing all of the East Coast Anglo-Scottish trains, but is conveniently ignoring half of the Anglo-Scottish trains within the West Coast operation which rather undermines the point… And that’s before you start counting TP’s anglo-Scottish services.

 

[JamieL]

Personally I think the OP has a point. If given the choice of an LNER standard service on the WCML, vice that of Avanti and TPE, I would jump at it! Admittedly Avanti do seem a little better now than during the terrible months of 2022. Half the trouble is the WCML just doesn't seem valued - the Carstairs work being a key example where it is perfectly fine to decimate activity for months on end which just leads people to write off the WCML as a waste of time and seek alternative travel arrangements.

 

[Davester50]

Edinburgh benefits greatly from the extension of the slower or Stopping Newcastle services.
Carlisle isn't Newcastle, nor did it have it's terminators to extend.

 

[Boodiggy]

Maybe not an entirely fair comparison when WCML between Euston and West London Junction shut for HS2 work, Norton Bridge to Basford Hall and north of New St in West Mids but overall the WCML serves so many more locations where as the ECML is more or less Leeds and Edinburgh with a few extensions or other random services. The WCML carries much more freight too.
Not a straight comparison on a day of normal service really. Maybe the WCML should run fast Edinburgh trains too.
And the point about Carstairs, although a fair challenge from the regular traveller the reality was something needed doing that without a blockade wouldn’t be possible.

 

[DarloRich]

I thought this was going to be some kind of east side v west side gansta rap battle.

Anyway, any fule kno that the ECML is the premier line. It goes to Darlington.

 

[Horizon22]

Bluntly put, there's generally more tourist / weekend demand for London - Edinburgh than there is London - Glasgow. Certainly Edinburgh is more of a tourist destination (as is York). This is not to say they don't exist on WCML, but perhaps not to the same degree with the same demographic.

Also as mentioned, the engineering works skews the figures.

 

[philosopher]

Personally I think the OP has a point. If given the choice of an LNER standard service on the WCML, vice that of Avanti and TPE, I would jump at it! Admittedly Avanti do seem a little better now than during the terrible months of 2022. Half the trouble is the WCML just doesn't seem valued - the Carstairs work being a key example where it is perfectly fine to decimate activity for months on end which just leads people to write off the WCML as a waste of time and seek alternative travel arrangements.

While services from London to Scotland are better on the ECML than the WCML, the WMCL does in my view have better scenery than the ECML. The ECML south of Durham has very bland scenery consisting mostly of views flat farmland. While it does have great views of the North Sea north of Newcastle, these views only seem to last around 10 minutes.

The WCML on the other hand has very good scenery for 20 minutes or more of both the Lake District and Southern Uplands. Even on the southern part of the WCML, the countryside is more of the rolling hills variety, with good views of the Chilterns around Tring.

 

[dave59]

I was citing the London originating core IC routes EUS-GLC and KGX-EDB. The ECML is far superior with fastest trains 10-15min quicker, more services and more reliable journey times. The introduction of the Class 801 has no doubt made a difference with much superior performance, but as has been mentioned stop-go of the Carstairs engineering and lack of robustness generally indicate a half hearted approach to the northern WCML. Avanti services are invariably late crossing the border going north then may get stuck behind one of the many cumbersome (still Diesel) hauled freights. Inclusion of EUS via BHM makes the comparison even worse. Circa 6 hours and 17 stops?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think considering Euston-Scotland via Brum is sensible, it is a combination of Euston-Wolves and Brum-Scotland that saves a diagram and allows longer trains. Though it is sold as a budget alternative for through trips and why not? It's a positive thing, not a negative one.

 

[The Planner]

Personally I think the OP has a point. If given the choice of an LNER standard service on the WCML, vice that of Avanti and TPE, I would jump at it! Admittedly Avanti do seem a little better now than during the terrible months of 2022. Half the trouble is the WCML just doesn't seem valued - the Carstairs work being a key example where it is perfectly fine to decimate activity for months on end which just leads people to write off the WCML as a waste of time and seek alternative travel arrangements.

The original plan for Carstairs was multiple multiple weekends. Which would have been worse considering the amount of work required?

 

[Krokodil]

with TP also serving the Northern half of the line regularly.

"Regularly" is stretching it, where TPE are concerned. Still, today has gone reasonably well, with one of the two Liverpool services actually running.

The original plan for Carstairs was multiple multiple weekends. Which would have been worse considering the amount of work required?

It wouldn't be so bad if they still had the ability to divert via the G&SW.

 

[Railsigns]

Another factor that favours the ECML is that passengers travelling from London to destinations north of Scotland's central belt avoid having to change stations in Glasgow. Some of them won't even need to change trains.

 

[The Planner]

It wouldn't be so bad if they still had the ability to divert via the G&SW.

Apart from the cost of delivery and general revenue loss as you lose 30 plus weekends.

 

[Krokodil]

Apart from the cost of delivery and general revenue loss as you lose 30 plus weekends.

Why do you lose weekends if diverting via the G&SW?

 

[dave59]

I don't think considering Euston-Scotland via Brum is sensible, it is a combination of Euston-Wolves and Brum-Scotland that saves a diagram and allows longer trains. Though it is sold as a budget alternative for through trips and why not? It's a positive thing, not a negative one.

Indeed it is, particularly now diesel working is all but gone from the route. The journey time is not a problem for those on a budget or staring at devices all the way.

 

[30907]

Why do you lose weekends if diverting via the G&SW?

You don't, but you lose at least an hour to Glasgow (same as via Midcalder?) and can't serve Edinburgh. And there aren't enough diesel units to provide a decent service.

 

[Eastern Farmer]

The ECML south of Durham has very bland scenery consisting mostly of views flat farmland.

Now I can’t let that slide! Peterborough to Grantham is the best part of the ECML.

The OP does have a fair point but as said there are factors against the wc. Also how many of the LNER services were 9 cars as I do see a lot more 5 cars at the weekend.

 

[YourMum666]

The best mainline in England is still the ECML, higher speed, better scenery, better stations.

The WCML has depots and better trains

 

[D6130]

better scenery, better stations.

Really? have you ever travelled on the WCML between Glasgow and Oxenholme?

 

[12LDA28C]

I don't think considering Euston-Scotland via Brum is sensible, it is a combination of Euston-Wolves and Brum-Scotland that saves a diagram and allows longer trains. Though it is sold as a budget alternative for through trips and why not? It's a positive thing, not a negative one.

Positive if you want to travel from London, Watford or MKC to Birmingham, or from Birmingham to Glasgow. Certainly not if you want to travel from Watford or MKC to Glasgow in a reasonable timeframe without changing. It was much better before most of the Glasgow trains got diverted via the West Midlands.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Really? have you ever travelled on the WCML between Glasgow and Oxenholme?

All the way to Preston even. Love it but yes Lune Gorge is exhilarating to say the least.

 

[YourMum666]

Really? have you ever travelled on the WCML between Glasgow and Oxenholme?

Yep, and I would take the ECML any day

 

[Bletchleyite]

The best mainline in England is still the ECML, higher speed, better scenery, better stations.

The WCML has depots and better trains

Better scenery? It is boring as sin south of Durham or thereabouts.