WCRC Exemption from CDL (central door locking) regulations until September

[Wilts Wanderer]

https://www.orr.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2023-06/wcrc-regulation-5-exemption-certificate-for-wcrc.pdf

Going by the above link, it would appear that the ORR has further extended West Coast’s exemption from CDL on their heritage main line rolling stock until the end of September. The previous certificate was expiring at midnight tonight. Certificate states this is to give sufficient time for the ongoing judicial review into the requirements set out in Regulation 5 to be completed. (Good news for the summer planned steam railtours, and the Jacobite.)

 

[railfan99]

Great informatiom, because in September I've booked on a steam tour. Last year from Australia, I tried the same: cancelled due to low bookings.

 

[DarloRich]

They will be back for another extentsion/derogation

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

They will be back for another extentsion/derogation

It will be interesting to see where this all goes, particularly given the technical challenges with fitting vacuum-braked stock with CDL (which requires a pressurised air system.)

 

[LowLevel]

It will be interesting to see where this all goes, particularly given the technical challenges with fitting vacuum-braked stock with CDL (which requires a pressurised air system.)

You just use magnetic locks instead.

 

[12LDA28C]

Great informatiom, because in September I've booked on a steam tour. Last year from Australia, I tried the same: cancelled due to low bookings.

Of course this latest derogation does not mean that a train won't be cancelled due to low bookings, or industrial action or any other reason

 

[43096]

Interesting that the ORR have issued a prohibition notice to WCRC for the Jacobite (https://orrprdpubreg1.blob.core.win...st-Railway-Company-Ltd-prohibition-notice.pdf) for misuse of door locks. Specifically:

You are failing to ensure the health and safety of your passengers and crew, thus putting them at risk of serious personal injury, as you are not implementing the controls identified in your risk assessment for rolling stock fitted with secondary door locking, in that:
1) Passengers are being told by train crew to operate the secondary door locks;
2) Stewards are not preventing passengers from operating the secondary door locks;
3) Stewards are not preventing passengers from leaning on train doors or from leaning out of the open droplight windows in train doors of moving trains; and
4) Secondary door locks are not in the ‘locked’ position or are being opened by train crew before the train is stationary;
Therefore, creating a risk of persons falling from a train or being struck by infrastructure being passed by the moving train.

This really ought to end any thought that WCRC's exemption should be granted/extended. They clearly cannot be trusted with the existing controls they have in place.

 

[kkong]

WCRC claiming the cancellations of the Jacobite are "completely beyond our control" are... interesting.

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/highlands-islands/5957554/harry-potter-train-cancelled/

Hundreds of tourists disappointed as ‘Harry Potter train’ journeys cancelled for six days

West Coast Railways announced the Jacobite steam train would not run due to "unforeseen circumstances".

by Ellie Milne
July 18 2023, 2.23pm

Hundreds of people have been left disappointed due to the six-day cancellation of a popular Scottish tourist attraction.

West Coast Railways has announced its Jacobite steam train service would not run on July 17, 18, 19 or 20 due to “unforeseen circumstances”.

The train, known as the Hogwarts Express, also did not operate over the weekend.

It is often described as the “greatest journey in the world” with bookings made months in advance by tourists and Harry Potter fans alike.

All of the pre-booked passengers scheduled to travel over the six days were contacted via e-mail or text message to inform them of the cancellations.

The rail company added it is unable to offer alternative dates for travel so all customers will be issued a refund within five days.

A standard adult return ticket for the 84-mile round trip costs £57 while a compartment onboard, which seats up to six people, costs £365.

In a post shared online, West Coast Railways wrote: “Please accept our sincere apologies for the late notice of this cancellation, however this is completely beyond our control.”

The Jacobite steam train operates a morning service every day between April and October, with an afternoon journey added between May and September.

This week’s cancellations have impacted a total of 12 return journeys.

West Coast Railways has been contacted for comment.

 

[notverydeep]

It would appear the author of the article in the previous post #9 has not read the ORR statement! Clearly some strange new use of the term 'completely beyond our control' of which I was not aware (sorry Douglas)...

Much as I spent a fair proportion of my younger years with my head out of the front window of Mark 1 carriage, listening to whatever I could afford to scratch in. all enthusiasts have to accept that on the mainline at least, that time has past and it is likely this that justifies the "at risk of serious personal injury" comment from the ORR. We may have known what the loading gauge *should* allow us to get away with, but even then a few who thought they knew were unlucky and plenty others who didn't know the risk were killed or injured.

Sadly for those who would like to see genuine heritage carriages on the mainline, I suspect that the days when volunteer stewards can be considered an adequate control of the risks associated with the doors and windows of such rolling stock have just come to an end. Having helped out operating a heritage rail event of this nature, I have some experience of the difficulties stewards can have with enforcing this, no one wants to argue with a passenger or spoil their day, by telling them they shouldn't put their camera out of the top-light and most complied. Most, but not all.

 

[James H]

That prohibition notice is dated June.

 

[kkong]

Perhaps there is another prohibition notice. not yet uploaded to ORR's public register.

The line is open to traffic, so I wonder what could be "completely beyond their control" causing them to cease operations for 6 days?

 

[notverydeep]

That prohibition notice is dated June.

Interesting, I hadn't noticed that - however, I am sure I would still have mentioned it if I were the journalist of the quoted article - so I'm surprised it wasn't referred to...

 

[fgwrich]

Perhaps there is another prohibition notice. not yet uploaded to ORR's public register.

The line is open to traffic, so I wonder what could be "completely beyond their control" causing them to cease operations for 6 days?

Motive Power Issues? Staffing issues? Much as I'm a diesel person through and through, there could be an issue with any of Riley's, or WCRCs, Steam Locos and given the costs and exception that a steam engine will be hauling it than a diesel, they could be cutting their nose to spite their face and trying to keep it a solely steam operation. And Fort William is not exactly a stones throw from Carnforth either.

 

[John Bishop]

Motive Power Issues? Staffing issues? Much as I'm a diesel person through and through, there could be an issue with any of Riley's, or WCRCs, Steam Locos and given the costs and exception that a steam engine will be hauling it than a diesel, they could be cutting their nose to spite their face and trying to keep it a solely steam operation. And Fort William is not exactly a stones throw from Carnforth either.

No, it’s an ORR prohibition notice to WCRC.

 

[43096]

No, it’s an ORR prohibition notice to WCRC.

Which would be totally within WCRC’s control.

 

[Greybeard33]

WCRC's case for judicial review of the ORR decision to revoke its exemption from Central Door Locking is currently before the High Court:

West Coast Railways: Business would be unviable if exemption is revoked

West Coast Railways is at The High Court of Justice aiming to overturn the Office of Rail and Road's decision to revoke their exemption to operate heritage steam locomotives and carriages on the mainline.

www.railadvent.co.uk

WCR's case is that they have had an exemption since 2005 and yet says that the same regulations, Rail Safety Regulations 1999, that are being used to force the operator to install Central Door Locking.

West Coast says that installing Central Door Locking would cost around £7m, which, according to the operator, would wipe out any profits for close to a decade – and would deem it unviable for business.

WCR also says that should the exemption be revoked, it would lead to a £50m loss in economic value.

This one-sided Rail Advent story fails to mention that other mainline operators have agreed to install CDL on their heritage stock. Neither does it mention the breach of door safety procedures that led to the temporary ORR prohibition notice against the Jacobite earlier this year, as discussed upthread:

Prohibition notices 2023 | Office of Rail and Road

This page contains details of prohibition notices issued in 2023.

www.orr.gov.uk

 

[DarloRich]

This one-sided Rail Advent story fails to mention that other mainline operators have agreed to install CDL on their heritage stock. Neither does it mention the breach of door safety procedures that led to the temporary ORR prohibition notice against the Jacobite earlier this year, as discussed upthread

It looks like a cut and paste WCRC press release. I like that they say safety is a priority while fighting to exempt themselves from safety requirements!

 

[TheBeard]

Yeah like No SRPS railtours anymore.
Sure others will be watching but it sounds a no win no fee bit of legal shenanigans

 

[ian1944]

How does this differ in principle from a chimney sweep saying that the business will be unprofitable unless children can be used to clear the narrow bits? Nor can they have protective clothing or masks, as this would cost too much. Since when has the looming unviability of a business been a reason for suspending regulations?

 

[Bletchleyite]

How does this differ in principle from a chimney sweep saying that the business will be unprofitable unless children can be used to clear the narrow bits? Nor can they have protective clothing or masks, as this would cost too much. Since when has the looming unviability of a business been a reason for suspending regulations?

It's the most important reason to have regulations. H&S isn't about protecting individuals from themselves*. It's about protecting people from unscrupulous competitors in the market cutting corners to get ahead at the expense of the safety of their customers and workforce.

* Well, on the railway it probably is to an extent, but not everywhere.

 

[BigB]

Yeah like No SRPS railtours anymore.
Sure others will be watching but it sounds a no win no fee bit of legal shenanigans

Why no SRPS railtours? They own their own stock which will have CDL fitted once the overhaul programme is complete (they already have CETs fitted).

 

[Townsend Hook]

It looks like a cut and paste WCRC press release. I like that they say safety is a priority while fighting to exempt themselves from safety requirements!

It does seem to be the usual level of Rail Advent, slightly re-wording press releases.

Why no SRPS railtours? They own their own stock which will have CDL fitted once the overhaul programme is complete (they already have CETs fitted).

Indeed they’ll have the only set of CDL/CET fitted Mk1s which aren’t attached to a particular operator.

It does seem a bit cheeky of West Coast to effectively keep trying to force ‘grandfather rights’ on this issue when they fairly recently acquired and have been operating a set of Mk1s which Riviera Trains sold off to avoid the costs of making compliant with the requirement to fit CDL.

 

[Greybeard33]

Reportedly the court has reserved judgement.

The operator has challenged the ORR’s decision in the High Court over the past two days, but judgment has been reserved and may not be known for several weeks.

Railnews - Tighter regulations could mean end of heritage specials

railnews.mobi

 

[renegademaster]

What are they going to do if they say no?
Use mark2/3s and paint them in their livery , grit their teeth and fit CDL to their current stock , or just give up and stop operating?

 

[BigB]

What are they going to do if they say no?
Use mark2/3s and paint them in their livery , grit their teeth and fit CDL to their current stock , or just give up and stop operating?

I really can't see WCRC walking away from the huge cash cow that is the Jacobite, and the costs of fitting CDL to the stock used would be returned quite quickly. However if Mr Smith decides it's not worthwhile I'm sure another operator with deep pockets would jump in there....

 

[Blindtraveler]

Given the money that they have made and presumably will continue to make by effectively operating the Hogwarts Express twice a day for a large chunk of the year, this position seems ridiculous and whilst the seven million pounds outweigh for the initial fitment work is hefty, they as others were have said would soon claw it back.


The potentially Mr trick by not going for some leveling up funding on culture grounds in conjunction with the tourist obsessed Scottish government

 

[357]

Have these people not heard of finance?
I'm sure they could get a loan if their finances were healthy enough.

 

[paul1609]

I really can't see WCRC walking away from the huge cash cow that is the Jacobite, and the costs of fitting CDL to the stock used would be returned quite quickly. However if Mr Smith decides it's not worthwhile I'm sure another operator with deep pockets would jump in there....

Im not going to repeat my posts of the technical reasons why it probably isnt financially viable for the Jacobite to continue with the existing stock and CDL but i still dont think it is. Dont think theyll be another operator either unless the Scottish Government steps in with a subsidy.

 

[bleeder4]

The £7m seems a bit excessive to me. On a Saphos trip once, one of the crew told me it had cost LSL around £30k per coach to fit CDL to their Mk 1s. I think I even read a similar figure in one of the magazines as well.

 

[43096]

Im not going to repeat my posts of the technical reasons why it probably isnt financially viable for the Jacobite to continue with the existing stock and CDL but i still dont think it is. Dont think theyll be another operator either unless the Scottish Government steps in with a subsidy.

The regulations about CDL have been in place - as a matter of law - since 1999 with ORR issuing exemptions in some circumstances. In addition the ORR very clearly stated over five years ago that there would be no further exemptions beyond 2023.

24 years of exemptions is more than enough time to develop an engineering solution and fund fitment. WCRC have had that time to resolve the issue, yet have chosen to do nothing - indeed it is evident that they have paid lip service to the existing mitigations in place. I am amazed there is any sympathy whatsoever with their position. Throw the book at them.