WCRC Exemption from CDL (central door locking) regulations until September

[Dai Corner]

The £7m seems a bit excessive to me. On a Saphos trip once, one of the crew told me it had cost LSL around £30k per coach to fit CDL to their Mk 1s. I think I even read a similar figure in one of the magazines as well.

The saving in stewards' wages would surely repay that within a season or two?

 

[LickeyIncliner]

Given the money that they have made and presumably will continue to make by effectively operating the Hogwarts Express twice a day for a large chunk of the year, this position seems ridiculous and whilst the seven million pounds outweigh for the initial fitment work is hefty, they as others were have said would soon claw it back.


The potentially Mr trick by not going for some leveling up funding on culture grounds in conjunction with the tourist obsessed Scottish government

Levelling Up funding is administered by the UK Government, and they are certainly not allocating it so as to do any favours for the Scottish Government

 

[stuartl]

Does the £7 million figure apply to the whole of their charter operation rather than just the Jacobite ?

 

[trebor79]

Levelling Up funding is administered by the UK Government, and they are certainly not allocating it so as to do any favours for the Scottish Government

I'm not convinced using it to subsidise a private company to continue to operate a lucrative tourist train trip would be a proper use of such funds.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

The £7m seems a bit excessive to me. On a Saphos trip once, one of the crew told me it had cost LSL around £30k per coach to fit CDL to their Mk 1s. I think I even read a similar figure in one of the magazines as well.

Even if it is £7 million ( which I don't think it is as I'm sure they haven't got 233 carriages to fit! ) they can certainly afford it:

WEST COAST RAILWAY COMPANY LTD. Free company accounts direct from Companies House. Download Accounts FREE

Free company accounts for WEST COAST RAILWAY COMPANY LTD including 5 years graphed cash at bank, assets, liabilities and net worth, complete financial table with FREE CSV export, plus download Companies House accounts documents FREE.

companycheck.co.uk

Link and screenshot show WCRC's last reported financial position, that of 2022, with a healthy net worth of £3 million, cash in bank being £4 million. This is a much healthier position than most companies display and not bad for the first full post-virus year in a sector that was hit more heavily than most by the restrictions.

 

[12LDA28C]

The £7m seems a bit excessive to me. On a Saphos trip once, one of the crew told me it had cost LSL around £30k per coach to fit CDL to their Mk 1s. I think I even read a similar figure in one of the magazines as well.

Not necessarily comparable if LSL vehicles are dual braked/air only and WCRC are vac-only, the system used and hence the applicable costs would be rather different although £7m does seem a lot.

 

[renegademaster]

Not necessarily comparable if LSL vehicles are dual braked/air only and WCRC are vac-only, the system used and hence the applicable costs would be rather different although £7m does seem a lot.

Why would cost differ based on braking system?

 

[Dai Corner]

Why would cost differ based on braking system?

I read elsewhere that the CDL uses compressed air which of course is readily available in an air-braked vehicle but not in a vacuum-braked one.

 

[renegademaster]

I read elsewhere that the CDL uses compressed air which of course is readily available in an air-braked vehicle but not in a vacuum-braked one.

Mabye the original ones but surely retrofitted ones would just be a wire along the length of the set + some electromagnets or servo controlled lock bolts. I don't really know how the technical specifics work but all their coaches have some communication connection between them for the PA

 

[Dai Corner]

Mabye the original ones but surely retrofitted ones would just be a wire along the length of the set + some electromagnets or servo controlled lock bolts. I don't really know how the technical specifics work but all their coaches have some communication connection between them for the PA

I don't know the technicalities either but hopefully somebody who does will be along to explain.

 

[paul1609]

In

I don't know the technicalities either but hopefully somebody who does will be along to explain.

The problem is that the early MK1 coaches have only a low voltage lighting system fed by a dynamo. The typical central door locking solenoid has run at 100volts and it is energise to lock so that in the event of failure it releases. You can't power such a system off the existing coach batteries so you are looking at a new power source and power and control lines running the length of the trains.
For coaches and locos with air brakes you can use the air as the power. With coaches with electric train heating and a generator or diesel loco it's much easier as they already have the power line.
Mk 1 coaches are generally only operating on a derogation so it's difficult to justify the investment as the Orr may require them to be withdrawn in X number of years.
For the avoidance of doubt this in no way a defence by me of West Coast, but the engineering and financial arguments seem sound

 

[renegademaster]

In

The problem is that the early MK1 coaches have only a low voltage lighting system fed by a dynamo. The typical central door locking solenoid has run at 100volts and it is energise to lock so that in the event of failure it releases. You can't power such a system off the existing coach batteries so you are looking at a new power source and power and control lines running the length of the trains.
For coaches and locos with air brakes you can use the air as the power. With coaches with electric train heating and a generator or diesel loco it's much easier as they already have the power line.
Mk 1 coaches are generally only operating on a derogation so it's difficult to justify the investment as the Orr may require them to be withdrawn in X number of years.
For the avoidance of doubt this in no way a defence by me of West Coast, but the engineering and financial arguments seem sound

Couldn't you use the heating circuit, I don't think they are steam heated anymore

 

[paul1609]

Couldn't you use the heating circuit, I don't think they are steam heated anymore

As I understand it both sets of the Jacobite are steam heated stock although as a summer operation it's not heated.
If you bring in electric heated stock it needs either a diesel loco or generator coach or other power source.

 

[GC class B1]

The BR designed central door locking system fitted to LHCS uses an air operated bolt on the door surround that engages with a striking plate on top of the door. The system required new jumper cables fitted for the control system. If the Jacobite trains always have a diesel locomotive or generator coach then it may be feasible to fit a similar system with the compressed air and electrical supply (110 volts) provided by the diesel locomotive or generator coach.

 

[paul1609]

I dont think the Jacobite has either a diesel loco or generator. I understand that the use of a Diesel because of the length of the loops requires the removal of a coach and complicates the steam loco run rounds.

 

[renegademaster]

I dont think the Jacobite has either a diesel loco or generator. I understand that the use of a Diesel because of the length of the loops requires the removal of a coach and complicates the steam loco run rounds

Is there not one to run the buffet?

 

[Townsend Hook]

Is there not one to run the buffet?

I would assume the buffet car still uses gas, as built, for hot drinks and such.

 

[Greybeard33]

The BR designed central door locking system fitted to LHCS uses an air operated bolt on the door surround that engages with a striking plate on top of the door. The system required new jumper cables fitted for the control system. If the Jacobite trains always have a diesel locomotive or generator coach then it may be feasible to fit a similar system with the compressed air and electrical supply (110 volts) provided by the diesel locomotive or generator coach.

A static converter could step up the 24V from the coach lighting system to 110V to power the solenoid valves. If the loading on the dynamo is an issue some of the incandescent bulbs could be replaced by LEDs. But the compressed air supply could be more challenging if the coaches are vacuum braked.

 

[paul1609]

A static converter could step up the 24V from the coach lighting system to 110V to power the solenoid valves. If the loading on the dynamo is an issue some of the incandescent bulbs could be replaced by LEDs. But the compressed air supply could be more challenging if the coaches are vacuum braked.

The batteries and dynamos are a well known issue with maintaining just the lighting on early MK1 coaches especially on low speed runs there's no way they could maintain static convertors for CDL even with LEDs.

 

[magpiespy]

The steam heat is in use, as shown in this photo taken at Glenfinnan this October

 

[ThePeakNed]

Surely the solution to the problem of Mk1s and CDL, is, erm, just use Mk2s..?

Are Mk2s cleared for Mallaig...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Surely the solution to the problem of Mk1s and CDL, is, erm, just use Mk2s..?

Are Mk2s cleared for Mallaig...

Don't people want to smell the loco? Though fitting hoppers to CDL Mk2s may be easier than fitting CDL to Mk1s...

 

[Townsend Hook]

Surely the solution to the problem of Mk1s and CDL, is, erm, just use Mk2s..?

Are Mk2s cleared for Mallaig...

They are. But there is still the issue that the steam locomotives used are generally vacuum-brake only - earlier, vac brake Mk2s will have the same issues here as the Mk1s and the later Mk2s which already have CDL are air brake only and need a generator or ETS-fitted diesel for lighting and heating.

I’m not defending WCRC here, they’ve had decades to find a solution instead of burying their corporate head in the sand.

 

[Greybeard33]

Exemption extended to the end of February.

West Coast Railways release update on Central Door Locking issue

The Office of Road and Rail have granted tour operator, West Coast Railways, an exemption for the Central Door Locking issue until a court decision has been made.

www.railadvent.co.uk

An ORR spokesperson said “ORR has granted WCRC a new three-month exemption from 1 December 2023 to 29 February 2024 to enable it to operate whilst its judicial review is determined”.

 

[paul1609]

The steam heat is in use, as shown in this photo taken at Glenfinnan this October
View attachment 147526

The photo also shows why you cant put a diesel loco on the back without shortening the train and reducing the income.

 

[12LDA28C]

Are Mk2s cleared for Mallaig...

Of course, as the Statesman charter train goes to Mallaig, as does the Midland Pullman HST with Mark 3s.

 

[D6130]

Have just read an article in the Scotsman (Sorry, can't do a link from my phone) stating that the Scottish Railway Preservation Society have had to suspend their programme of main line rail tours for the foreseeable future because of the same issue with their mark 1 stock....plus the need for expensive strengthening of the carriage ends. As a result they will lose thousands of Pounds of income every year. Are there any generous millionaire rail enthusiasts out there?

 

[Deepgreen]

The steam heat is in use, as shown in this photo taken at Glenfinnan this October
View attachment 147526

Yes, and note the large shrub growing over/in the other line!!

 

[Greybeard33]

The photo also shows why you cant put a diesel loco on the back without shortening the train and reducing the income.

DMUs have underfloor diesel engines powerful enough to propel the train as well as provide hotel power. Would it not be possible to equip one of the Mk1 carriages in the rake with a small diesel or petrol power pack specifically to supply compressed air and power to the CDL system? Keep the vacuum brakes, steam heating and dynamo lighting, so very little power required and no need to reduce the passenger accommodation.

 

[trebor79]

DMUs have underfloor diesel engines powerful enough to propel the train as well as provide hotel power. Would it not be possible to equip one of the Mk1 carriages in the rake with a small diesel or petrol power pack specifically to supply compressed air and power to the CDL system? Keep the vacuum brakes, steam heating and dynamo lighting, so very little power required and no need to reduce the passenger accommodation.

It might be possible but would cost a lot of money for design/certification/safety. You'd probably need to fireproof the floor, install some noise insulation. Where is the exhaust going to go? Where do the radiators go etc?
TBH it would be quicker, easier, cheaper and cheaper to run to install sat 20kWH of LiFePO batteries in the brake compartment with an inverter to supply a CDL system as well as the lighting circuits etc. Just charge with shore power each evening.