WCRC loses judicial review in High Court

[Blindtraveler]

Excuse my ignorance but I didn't think they could operate from fort William this season until they have stock that is suitably fitted

 

[WAB]

Possibly but ORR need to be even handed. They have been willing to grant exemptions to Vintage and SRPS on the basis of a plan for CDL fitment and progress towards delivery on the plan. Fairly soon, at least by the time of the GB tour, things should be clearer.

We've been over this before, I think. It's worth remembering the reason why things have come to a head for WCRC: they were not properly implementing the safety mitigations required as part of their exemption. Given WCRC's track record, it's no wonder that the ORR is unwilling to give them yet another last chance.

 

[12LDA28C]

Excuse my ignorance but I didn't think they could operate from fort William this season until they have stock that is suitably fitted

As previously mentioned, WCRC have a rake of Mk2 stock fitted with CDL which they could potentially use, or hire a rake in from another provider. They still run trains on the main line using the aforementioned stock. It would be a strange decision to advertise this year's Jacobite season online if they couldn't run the trains.

 

[anothertyke]

We've been over this before, I think. It's worth remembering the reason why things have come to a head for WCRC: they were not properly implementing the safety mitigations required as part of their exemption. Given WCRC's track record, it's no wonder that the ORR is unwilling to give them yet another last chance.

I respectfully beg to differ. The reason this has panned out this way is that WCR declined to make a plan to fit CDL, so having been vindicated in the JR, ORR terminated their exemption just before Christmas. If ORR are satisfied that WCR are committed, have a plan and are implementing it to a timetable, then they will treat WCR just the same as the other operators. What that means for summer 2024 is not general public knowledge, but fairly soon it will become clear. WCR have Northern Belles to run, a train to send to Fort William and the GB tour to operate in the next month.

 

[Robin Procter]

I respectfully beg to differ. The reason this has panned out this way is that WCR declined to make a plan to fit CDL, so having been vindicated in the JR, ORR terminated their exemption just before Christmas. If ORR are satisfied that WCR are committed, have a plan and are implementing it to a timetable, then they will treat WCR just the same as the other operators. What that means for summer 2024 is not general public knowledge, but fairly soon it will become clear. WCR have Northern Belles to run, a train to send to Fort William and the GB tour to operate in the next month.

.... Exactly! Too many 'experts' on the subject posting in this thread who think they know more or better than those people directly involved and all they are really doing is speculating and causing confusion, albeit unintentionally.

 

[anothertyke]

.... Exactly! Too many 'experts' on the subject posting in this thread who think they know more or better than those people directly involved and all they are really doing is speculating and causing confusion, albeit unintentionally.

West Coast Railways submits new heritage train exemption application

West Coast Railways has submitted a new exemption application to the Office of Rail and Road.

www.railadvent.co.uk

Hope links are permitted here.

 

[DarloRich]

I respectfully beg to differ. The reason this has panned out this way is that WCR declined to make a plan to fit CDL, so having been vindicated in the JR, ORR terminated their exemption just before Christmas. If ORR are satisfied that WCR are committed, have a plan and are implementing it to a timetable, then they will treat WCR just the same as the other operators. What that means for summer 2024 is not general public knowledge, but fairly soon it will become clear. WCR have Northern Belles to run, a train to send to Fort William and the GB tour to operate in the next month.

You are presenting the final link in the chain as the only link in the chain leading to this situation. You describe the culmination of a long running situation between ORR & WCRC.

 

[12LDA28C]

West Coast Railways submits new heritage train exemption application

West Coast Railways has submitted a new exemption application to the Office of Rail and Road.

www.railadvent.co.uk

Hope links are permitted here.

Interesting. Given the history I wonder how that application will be received by the ORR.

 

[DarloRich]

Interesting. Given the history I wonder how that application will be received by the ORR.

There is nothing in that rehashed press release to grade what is going on or the likelihood of success.

 

[43096]

There is nothing in that rehashed press release to grade what is going on or the likelihood of success.

It will likely be dependent on WCRC submitting a credible, detailed, time bound plan for CDL fitment to the ORR. That’s the same basis as other operators. Anything less than that and you’d suspect there is no chance.

 

[DarloRich]

It will likely be dependent on WCRC submitting a credible, detailed, time bound plan for CDL fitment to the ORR. That’s the same basis as other operators. Anything less than that and you’d suspect there is no chance.

Absolutely! ( and it must be fair to all of those who HAVE fitted the required equipment!)

 

[DDB]

It will also require a plan for safe operation in the mean time that ORR belive and given WCR have been caught by ORR not following WCRs own safety plan recently ORR should take some convincing. I suspect issuing press statements isn't the way to go about it.

 

[Mike Machin]

Whilst I appreciate that times have changed and the new regulations must be rigorously enforced, I can’t help but reflect on how many tens of thousands of people opened and closed doors, boarding and alighting from packed trains at hundreds of busy stations thousands of times every morning as people pushed and jostled their way to and from work each day.

I wonder why we can’t be trusted any more?

 

[Dai Corner]

Whilst I appreciate that times have changed and the new regulations must be rigorously enforced, I can’t help but reflect on how many tens of thousands of people opened and closed doors, boarding and alighting from packed trains at hundreds of busy stations thousands of times every morning as people pushed and jostled their way to and from work each day.

I wonder why we can’t be trusted any more?

Because it's decades since tens of thousands of people did that, memories of the dangers have faded and a large proportion of the population have never even seen a train without power doors. I'm sure this has been covered in this thread at least once before.

 

[Killingworth]

Because it's decades since tens of thousands of people did that, memories of the dangers have faded and a large proportion of the population have never even seen a train without power doors. I'm sure this has been covered in this thread at least once before.

It's been covered many times before. Many millions of people had been managing without central door locking for 150 years since railways began.

When first travelling alone on a mainline train I still recall my trepidation on reaching a destination as I wrestled with the thick leather strap to lower the window and reach the door handle. And first encountering Southern electrics at Waterloo where everyone seemed to leap out before the trains came to a stand. That was a long time ago, another world.

Travel today on a modern railway in mobile museum pieces requires a balance between authenticity and safety. If any heritage rolling stock operator doesn't comply with modern regulations and an incident occurs even more stringent rules are likely to follow - for everyone.

 

[DDB]

Whilst I appreciate that times have changed and the new regulations must be rigorously enforced, I can’t help but reflect on how many tens of thousands of people opened and closed doors, boarding and alighting from packed trains at hundreds of busy stations thousands of times every morning as people pushed and jostled their way to and from work each day.

I wonder why we can’t be trusted any more?

Because some of those people died. We as a society have rightly decided that people shouldn't be exposed to a risk of dying on a tourist attraction especially when that risk can be easily avoided.

 

[Robin Procter]

Whilst I appreciate that times have changed and the new regulations must be rigorously enforced, I can’t help but reflect on how many tens of thousands of people opened and closed doors, boarding and alighting from packed trains at hundreds of busy stations thousands of times every morning as people pushed and jostled their way to and from work each day.

I wonder why we can’t be trusted any more?

.... HEAR! HEAR!! The UK has become ridiculous in the extent of its creation of rules, regulations, and even some law - All designed to mollycoddle the population. By all means let technology advance (it never stops and will advance anyway) but knee-jerk blanket rules teach nobody to take care as they go about their daily lives. Don't get me started on stuff like autopilot driverless cars or the prospect of driverless trains!

Mollycoddling people lulls them into becoming unaware, unfocussed, and comfortably numb (cue for a great track by Pink Floyd).

There is no reason or indeed justification in regulations not having provision for exceptions and aged but functional railway carriages/coaches (whichever is the correct term) should be an exception.

Have the traditional and very stylish milk chocolate & cream Pullman coaches in service with Belmond and Saphos been modified to comply with the rules being discussed?

Because some of those people died. We as a society have rightly decided that people shouldn't be exposed to a risk of dying on a tourist attraction especially when that risk can be easily avoided.

.... Yes, people die - Living life is fatal. People will die due to their lack of awareness and focus regardless of mollycoddling.

 

[Towers]

.... HEAR! HEAR!! The UK has become ridiculous in the extent of its creation of rules, regulations, and even some law - All designed to mollycoddle the population. By all means let technology advance (it never stops and will advance anyway) but knee-jerk blanket rules teach nobody to take care as they go about their daily lives. Don't get me started on stuff like autopilot driverless cars or the prospect of driverless trains!

Mollycoddling people lulls them into becoming unaware, unfocussed, and comfortably numb (cue for a great track by Pink Floyd).

There is no reason or indeed justification in regulations not having provision for exceptions and aged but functional railway carriages/coaches (whichever is the correct term) should be an exception.

Have the traditional and very stylish milk chocolate & cream Pullman coaches in service with Belmond and Saphos been modified to comply with the rules being discussed?


.... Yes, people die - Living life is fatal. People will die due to their lack of awareness and focus regardless of mollycoddling.

There are a multitude of enormous benefits to the often dreaded “elf n safety” culture, many of which we all take for granted and would be alarmed if they were withdrawn. Just because safety standards used to be lax doesn’t mean it’s appropriate for that to be the case now.

A related example is droplight windows. Many regret not being able to hang out of them like you could in the old days, however in recent years there were two fatalities as a result of people doing exactly that. One of those was a railway employee.

Aside from the obvious risk of injury or death to the individual, a serious mainline door incident on heritage stock would result in massive consequences for the industry, the outcomes of which are highly unlikely to positive.

 

[RPI]

Whilst I appreciate that times have changed and the new regulations must be rigorously enforced, I can’t help but reflect on how many tens of thousands of people opened and closed doors, boarding and alighting from packed trains at hundreds of busy stations thousands of times every morning as people pushed and jostled their way to and from work each day.

I wonder why we can’t be trusted any more?

We also used to send young kids up chimneys, down mines and drive cars without seatbelts. We learn from mistakes and experiences, yes the modern society has lost all sense of personal responsibility, but there also is a balance to be made in reducing easily avoidable risk.

 

[357]

knee-jerk blanket rules

It's not knee-jerk. The operators have known for years that they will need CDL one day.

The thing worth noting is that it's only WCRC with this situation, not any of the other operators. Ask yourself why that is.

If Network Rail want to make it a condition of running on their own tracks then that's their choice. You can go to any heritage railway and enjoy coaches being used without any CDL.

 

[Robin Procter]

There are a multitude of enormous benefits to the often dreaded “elf n safety” culture, many of which we all take for granted and would be alarmed if they were withdrawn. Just because safety standards used to be lax doesn’t mean it’s appropriate for that to be the case now.

A related example is droplight windows. Many regret not being able to hang out of them like you could in the old days, however in recent years there were two fatalities as a result of people doing exactly that. One of those was a railway employee.

Aside from the obvious risk of injury or death to the individual, a serious mainline door incident on heritage stock would result in massive consequences for the industry, the outcomes of which are highly unlikely to positive.

We also used to send young kids up chimneys, down mines and drive cars without seatbelts. We learn from mistakes and experiences, yes the modern society has lost all sense of personal responsibility, but there also is a balance to be made in reducing easily avoidable risk.

.... Certainly, but there is a balance which should be achieved and encouraging, not discouraging, awareness and focus is healthier (in my opinion).

I wasn't advocating that safety standards should be completely lax but rather that they don't need to go as far as mollycoddling the populus and wrapping them up in cotton wool.

 

[renegademaster]

The only argument I accept from OCR is the risk of leaving a door open and striking someone on the platform. Which I think happened and was what spooked them.

Otherwise people who get into ancient rolling stock aren't get forced to get on and is ultimately their own problem.

 

[LowLevel]

.... Certainly, but there is a balance which should be achieved and encouraging, not discouraging, awareness and focus is healthier (in my opinion).

I wasn't advocating that safety standards should be completely lax but rather that they don't need to go as far as mollycoddling the populus and wrapping them up in cotton wool.

Right, so which part of that is covered by stopping outward opening train doors swinging in the wind?

There seems to be a rose tinted view of the bowler hatted commuters leaping like gazelles along the platform at Waterloo with never a care like a cadre of highly train sporty types nationwide, whereas the reality was hundreds killed and thousands injured in door incidents which are easily avoidable - particularly because it isn't necessarily the person leaving the door open that is then hurt by it.

 

[Carntyne]

The only reason WCRC are in this position is that they agreed mitigations with the ORR, ignored them, and were caught more than once.

It's not 'elf n safety gone mad' or any other crazy catchphrase that encourages the rest of us to turn a blind eye to lazy and dangerous operators.

 

[D6130]

The only reason WCRC are in this position is that they agreed mitigations with the ORR, ignored them, and were caught more than once.

It's not 'elf n safety gone mad' or any other crazy catchphrase that encourages the rest of us to turn a blind eye to lazy and dangerous operators.

Like!

 

[CyrusWuff]

It's not knee-jerk. The operators have known for years that they will need CDL one day.

More specifically, they've had 25 years to get their houses in order, though it's only within the last five years that ORR have intimated they'll be getting stricter.

 

[Wolfie]

.... Certainly, but there is a balance which should be achieved and encouraging, not discouraging, awareness and focus is healthier (in my opinion).

I wasn't advocating that safety standards should be completely lax but rather that they don't need to go as far as mollycoddling the populus and wrapping them up in cotton wool.

The problem with your last para is that others may well agree with the general principle while setting the acceptable level very differently than you would. You do rather seem to posit your personal position as the "common sense" one.

The only reason WCRC are in this position is that they agreed mitigations with the ORR, ignored them, and were caught more than once.

It's not 'elf n safety gone mad' or any other crazy catchphrase that encourages the rest of us to turn a blind eye to lazy and dangerous operators.

Absolutely. They knew the rules, they agreed a compromise, ignored it then cried like a spoilt three year old when quite properly presented with the consequences.

 

[anothertyke]

Because some of those people died. We as a society have rightly decided that people shouldn't be exposed to a risk of dying on a tourist attraction especially when that risk can be easily avoided.

But what is the evidence of what has actually happened on stewarded trains with slam doors since 1998? Maybe I've got this wrong, but I think the actual number of deaths is zero, the actual number of casualties is zero ( the person who broke their leg on the Great Central fell out of a non-stewarded train) and the number of reported incidents which might have led to injury is 2 (Bath Spa and York). Is that factually correct?

Then step 2 is to balance risk reduction against cost so as to estimate the payoff. Will CDL materially reduce risk? Will CDL without selective increase risk at places with short platforms? Will it work faultlessly? Obviously that's where the judgement comes in. Personally I thought the ORR's case viewed on the evidence was not that strong. But this is one of those situations where ALARP might say one thing and cost/benefit another.

Of course that position does depend on the operators doing what they commit to in terms of stewarding.

 

[Towers]

The only argument I accept from OCR is the risk of leaving a door open and striking someone on the platform. Which I think happened and was what spooked them.

Otherwise people who get into ancient rolling stock aren't get forced to get on and is ultimately their own problem.

If someone were to fall to their death out of a moving heritage train, it would very much not be just “ultimately their own problem”. Rightly or wrongly, if you are running a business and inviting people in you are obliged to take steps to safeguard their wellbeing, and that goes beyond just putting a sign up where there is a demonstrable risk of someone coming to serious harm. What WCRC are being asked to do here is entirely in line with the standards that society as a whole expects and is held to.

 

[31160]

But what is the evidence of what has actually happened on stewarded trains with slam doors since 1998? Maybe I've got this wrong, but I think the actual number of deaths is zero, the actual number of casualties is zero ( the person who broke their leg on the Great Central fell out of a non-stewarded train) and the number of reported incidents which might have led to injury is 2 (Bath Spa and York). Is that factually correct?

Then step 2 is to balance risk reduction against cost so as to estimate the payoff. Will CDL materially reduce risk? Will CDL without selective increase risk at places with short platforms? Will it work faultlessly? Obviously that's where the judgement comes in. Personally I thought the ORR's case viewed on the evidence was not that strong. But this is one of those situations where ALARP might say one thing and cost/benefit another.

Of course that position does depend on the operators doing what they commit to in terms of stewarding.

But the whole point of this is that WCR were given a license to operate with door stewards, which they then conveniently forgot about and told the passengers to operate the door bolts themselves, how people keep on making excuses for these clowns completely escapes me, just because it went like that when I wert a kid etc etc, well it isn't the 60s anymore the world has happily moved on just because WCR can't, won't or don't want to will not wash anymore