WCRC loses judicial review in High Court

[Iskra]

If LTP paths are cancelled then there is nothing preventing another operator stepping in and submitting bids for STP services in the same slots on individual dates.

But if another operator with compliant stock came along, WCRC could easily just run a light engine in those paths to prevent it.

 

[Killingworth]

Other heritage operators have squeezed return trips in but Scotrail could hire compliant stock to use their existing paths. Steam is nice for enthusiasts but in times when fire hazards prevent steam haulage Jacobite services have been diesel hauled. How badly did that impact on loadings?

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

But if another operator with compliant stock came along, WCRC could easily just run a light engine in those paths to prevent it.

They could do, and would look like complete imbeciles doing so and would lose what little goodwill presumably still exists in the Highlands communities reliant on tourism. And yes, I can absolutely imagine WCRC doing that.

 

[snookertam]

Quite. I have no sympathy for them at all - they have conducted themselves appallingly and need to buck their ideas up and, as required, come up with a plan for either CDL fitment or replacing the stock with CDL fitted stock.

They seem to have released a press release about lost value to the economy if they don’t get an exemption. Their attitude absolutely stinks. Really wonder who exactly they think they are.

 

[renegademaster]

Black 5s are air braked, why don't they just use the mark 2 set?

 

[ZL exile]

.

 

[JonathanH]

Black 5s are air braked, why don't they just use the mark 2 set?

It appears they only have one functional set with CDL. Jacobite needs two (morning and afternoon) and WCRC have other contracts / operations to fulfil. It is a valid question as to whether they are doing anything with the air-braked 'afternoon' set to fit CDL.

 

[anothertyke]

Black 5s are air braked, why don't they just use the mark 2 set?

That was my thought.

Possibly because reliable operation of CDL without a second power source is problematic and there are operational issues with a diesel on the back (loop lengths, runrounds at Mallaig)?

Possibly because that would mean abandoning the RTC and WCR programme out of London and Carnforth (no air braked locos available if they are up at FW)?

 

[renegademaster]

That was my thought.

Possibly because reliable operation of CDL without a second power source is problematic and there are operational issues with a diesel on the back (loop lengths, runrounds at Mallaig)?

Possibly because that would mean abandoning the RTC and WCR programme out of London and Carnforth (no air braked locos available if they are up at FW)?

They've been abusing Tangmere at the moment usually

It appears they only have one functional set with CDL. Jacobite needs two (morning and afternoon) and WCRC have other contracts / operations to fulfil. It is a valid question as to whether they are doing anything with the air-braked 'afternoon' set to fit CDL.

Their's plenty of sets available to hire. They might not be able to economically run a full schedule but most of the weekdays must be fine if they can use the one UK railtours use on weekends

 

[JonathanH]

They might not be able to economically run a full schedule but most of the weekdays must be fine if they can use the one UK railtours use on weekends

For the Jacobite? How would that return to England when needed at the weekend? Riviera essentially have two working sets of Mark 2s at present, but sometimes commitments need both.

 

[renegademaster]

For the Jacobite? How would that return to England when needed at the weekend?

Quickly down the ECML?
I haven't really thought through this in much detail if you have gathered

 

[Virgin Voyager]

A sensible solution to this would be for WCRC to hire in one of the riviera sets for its ad hoc charter work like the Cumbrian Mountain Express ect with Tangmere, and send their own CDL fitted Mk2 Aircons up to the Highlands for use on the Jacobite with an air braked black 5. Admittedly an ETH diesel loco would be needed for this and I think the Jacobite would be limited to 6 coaches due to run around loop/passing loop lengths? Leaving one of the riviera sets free for other charter companies to use. Maybe the extra expense of running a diesel with the Jacobite and loosing a coach which should have passengers on, for the 47 makes this operation not financially viable? There's also the issue of the Mk2s not bieng authentic because they don't have compartments ect... Which might annoy customers and put others off in the long run. This is just my suggestion for what it's worth, not that anyone at WCR will be taking advice from this thread

 

[Bill57p9]

The Jacobite ran twice daily for a significant portion of the year, with high loadings. I can’t believe that it wouldn’t be financially viable to either fit CDL or hire a rake in or for another operator to take it on - even if one coach had to be dropped off to gain a diesel or generator vehicle.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Jacobite ran twice daily for a significant portion of the year, with high loadings. I can’t believe that it wouldn’t be financially viable to either fit CDL or hire a rake in or for another operator to take it on - even if one coach had to be dropped off to gain a diesel or generator vehicle.

There are absolutely solutions (and if losing a coach meant less income, just crank the price up, the tourists will still pay*, offer an advance booked discounted option for the price sensitive). They just don't seem to be showing much interest in taking them, preferring toys-out-of-pram.

* It's a premium market. Anyone wanting a cheap ride over "that viaduct" will just use ScotRail.

 

[D6130]

There's also the issue of the Mk2s not bieng authentic because they don't have compartments

IIRC, only one coach - the brake vehicle - in each set had compartments....the rest were open stock.

 

[Bletchleyite]

IIRC, only one coach - the brake vehicle - in each set had compartments....the rest were open stock.

As long as it looks old and has a steam locomotive on the front, they will cough up.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

The Jacobite ran twice daily for a significant portion of the year, with high loadings. I can’t believe that it wouldn’t be financially viable to either fit CDL or hire a rake in or for another operator to take it on - even if one coach had to be dropped off to gain a diesel or generator vehicle.

According to the figures they themselves used in the court case a few months ago, the Jacobite earns WCRC a profit of £1 million a year.

 

[Mountain Man]

But if another operator with compliant stock came along, WCRC could easily just run a light engine in those paths to prevent it.

Given their press strategy seems to be focusing on economic impact to the local area, that would undermine their own argument and would no doubt generate a massive public backlash.

 

[Blindtraveler]

This may also open the floodgates for the Scottish government to turn around and come out with something suitably patriotic along the lines of why isn't a Scottish company running this service in the first place rather than the hated evil English, a line they have not yet ventured down presumably because of said economic impact to areas that need it and particularly the tourist trade which so many of their future plans seem to rely heavily on


Could we see a competitive tender exercise for jacobite tourist services in future with all operators with suitable stock and low commotives or indeed even scenic multiple units allowed to participate?


Potentially kicking a can of worms that could stay upright quite happily I know but it did occur to me

 

[Iskra]

Given their press strategy seems to be focusing on economic impact to the local area, that would undermine their own argument and would no doubt generate a massive public backlash.

It depends how they sugarcoat it- driver training to maintain the ability to operate in future years doesn’t seem all that bad does it…

This may also open the floodgates for the Scottish government to turn around and come out with something suitably patriotic along the lines of why isn't a Scottish company running this service in the first place rather than the hated evil English, a line they have not yet ventured down presumably because of said economic impact to areas that need it and particularly the tourist trade which so many of their future plans seem to rely heavily on


Could we see a competitive tender exercise for jacobite tourist services in future with all operators with suitable stock and low commotives or indeed even scenic multiple units allowed to participate?


Potentially kicking a can of worms that could stay upright quite happily I know but it did occur to me

That’s an interesting thought. There’s only the SRPS in Scotland though and I don’t know if they have a compliant rake on the go or any suitable steam locomotives available to them?

 

[43096]

A sensible solution to this would be for WCRC to hire in one of the riviera sets for its ad hoc charter work like the Cumbrian Mountain Express ect with Tangmere, and send their own CDL fitted Mk2 Aircons up to the Highlands for use on the Jacobite with an air braked black 5. Admittedly an ETH diesel loco would be needed for this and I think the Jacobite would be limited to 6 coaches due to run around loop/passing loop lengths? Leaving one of the riviera sets free for other charter companies to use. Maybe the extra expense of running a diesel with the Jacobite and loosing a coach which should have passengers on, for the 47 makes this operation not financially viable? There's also the issue of the Mk2s not bieng authentic because they don't have compartments ect... Which might annoy customers and put others off in the long run. This is just my suggestion for what it's worth, not that anyone at WCR will be taking advice from this thread

You are rather assuming that Riviera have a set spare and not already committed to other customers.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I could see an exercise involving both Scott Rail itself using something like a heavily refurbished voyager with its big windows and a few of the enormous toilets removed along with the shop to provide more seating and a trolley catering service from across country style end galley, srps who have one formation of coaches that according to their website a currently undergoing heavy overhaul of some kind but could probably scratch up another formation if such a lucrative contract was up for grabs and maybe the incumbent west coast railway company plus anyone else with an interest, Strathspay railway?

 

[Bill57p9]

That’s an interesting thought. There’s only the SRPS in Scotland though and I don’t know if they have a compliant rake on the go or any suitable steam locomotives available to them?

It would not appear to from the list of exemptions currently in place https://www.orr.gov.uk/guidance-com...lling-stock/mark-1-and-hinged-door-exemptions

(A regulation 4 exemption would still be required. CDL is regulation 5)

 

[Iskra]

I could see an exercise involving both Scott Rail itself using something like a heavily refurbished voyager with its big windows and a few of the enormous toilets removed along with the shop to provide more seating and a trolley catering service from across country style end galley, srps who have one formation of coaches that according to their website a currently undergoing heavy overhaul of some kind but could probably scratch up another formation if such a lucrative contract was up for grabs and maybe the incumbent west coast railway company plus anyone else with an interest, Strathspay railway?

We are entering the realms of speculation, but considering the squeeze on stock currently; the most likely candidate for such a venture would surely be a HST since there are plenty of compliant examples, they are lightweight so better for the West Highland, they are cleared for the lines, Scotrail have some already and have staff trained on them. There are also more examples out there in the railtour sector already.

 

[Blindtraveler]

We are entering the realms of speculation, but considering the squeeze on stock currently; the most likely candidate for such a venture would surely be a HST since there are plenty of compliant examples, they are lightweight so better for the West Highland, they are cleared for the lines, Scotrail have some already and have staff trained on them. There are also more examples out there in the railtour sector already.

And indeed this could soon be the only use for them if various people get their way



Drifting a little further back to topic, it will be very interesting now to see what sort of time scale the review of WC RC application for exemptions takes, would I be being highly cynical if I said that it might be speeded up if somebody fairly senior within the office of real and road or a closely linked department suddenly realized that he couldn't take his eight-year-old on the Hogwarts Express over the late may bank holiday weekend?

 

[zwk500]

Could we see a competitive tender exercise for jacobite tourist services in future with all operators with suitable stock and low commotives or indeed even scenic multiple units allowed to participate?

AIUI the Jacobite is entirely a WCRC thing, the promoter are a subsidiary of WCRC IIRC and there is no way on god's earth WCRC would ever tender to a competitor.

You might see competition to operate Steam trains between Fort William and Mallaig but different companies likely wouldn't bother with the Jacobite name.

That’s an interesting thought. There’s only the SRPS in Scotland though and I don’t know if they have a compliant rake on the go or any suitable steam locomotives available to them?

Fairly sure the SRPS don't have an operating license, they contract with the mainline charter operators as and when required. LSL were talking about establishing a scottish base for a long while, not sure if DB or DRS are still in the charter market.

But if another operator with compliant stock came along, WCRC could easily just run a light engine in those paths to prevent it.

Not quite that simple - The bidding operator could dispute the access decision claiming they're bringing passengers to the railway which a Light locomotive certainly isn't. It's also possible that the light locomotive runs would be counted as a cancellation and spot bid so WCRC would be in danger of releasing the paths anyway. (I am aware of at least one other Charter LTP operation that got the paths transferred due to lack of use, despite the original owner using them at the last minute).

Drifting a little further back to topic, it will be very interesting now to see what sort of time scale the review of WC RC application for exemptions takes, would I be being highly cynical if I said that it might be speeded up if somebody fairly senior within the office of real and road or a closely linked department suddenly realized that he couldn't take his eight-year-old on the Hogwarts Express over the late may bank holiday weekend?

I'd be very surprised if the ORR got this close to achieving their goal and then relented when they could easily take an 8yo to the Studio Tour at Watford.

 

[paul1609]

It would not appear to from the list of exemptions currently in place https://www.orr.gov.uk/guidance-com...lling-stock/mark-1-and-hinged-door-exemptions

(A regulation 4 exemption would still be required. CDL is regulation 5)

As i understand it (there may be SRPS members who can correct me) the SRPS approached various bodies including Transport Scotland to help fund the fitting of CDL as long ago as 2019 but so far this has not been achieved, as a consequence the mainline set has been withdrawn for overhaul.

 

[D6130]

As i understand it (there may be SRPS members who can correct me) the SRPS approached various bodies including Transport Scotland to help fund the fitting of CDL as long ago as 2019 but so far this has not been achieved, as a consequence the mainline set has been withdrawn for overhaul.

This is more-or-less what my SRPS contact told me on the phone last night..... unfortunately with the additional information that the work on the main line stock has revealed futher unexpected problems which will take much more time and money to rectify . Apparently there are elements within the SRPS who wish to abandon the mainline railtours and confine the stock to the Bo'ness branch....which resulted in their last AGM being rather stormy.

 

[rossco156433]

I called WCRC this morning as I am booked on the Jacobite on the 2nd April and I was wanting to know my options to be told that my trip has not been cancelled yet (only the 1st 3 trips have been canned according to the lady I spoke to) therefor might run however they would be in contact a week before (this coming Monday) to advise if it will run or not. I asked if a Mk1 set was being worked on to fit CDL or if they are just simply waiting for an exemption from the ORR, I was told that they are waiting for an exemption. I appreciate it was obviously an admin person I spoke to who might not be fully aware of any works taking place on the coaches however It would seem that WCRC still haven't learned their lesson.

Looks like we will be taking the 08:15 service train to Mallaig with a picnic instead.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I have to admit that I find the whole thing utterly bizarre, and I’m sure the previous 20 pages have differing views on this.

Here on the Isle of Man the government-run railway has slam-door stock without CDL. The nod to modern safety standards is a sign that reminds people that if they stick their head out of the door or open the door when moving then it might hurt a bit.

It’s long been obvious that the ORR simply don’t want charter trains on the main line network. Looks like they’re inching ever closer to achieving their aim.