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WCRC loses judicial review in High Court

anothertyke

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23 Jun 2023
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Which other operator realistically could run a regular steam service? There is only really LSL, and despite their efforts this week their stock is well booked with upcoming charter work, especially the Saphos/Steam Dreams Mk1 set. They could carry on with the class 37/DBSO set but this may not have the same appeal as steam long term.
If it is partly about the wider economy of Lochaber, I wonder whether, in the event of WCR not continuing, there might be scope for a deal between Scotrail, SRPS and Rileys who after all have (with NELPG) been providing the locos for years. Very hypothetical I know, but I could imagine some thought being given in Edinburgh to 'OK, what's Plan B?'.
 
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Stephen42

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If it comes to a situation where they come up with plan to CDL, ORR says no we've had enough of you, would a way round that be more supervision + CDL , or is the mark 1s heading to the scrapheap the most likely end state no matter what?
While ORR has discretion over how it uses its powers, it can't treat operators presenting equivalent cases differently. If they have a reasonable time bound plan to fit CDL, ORR would need to grant the exemption unless there was convincing justification that the mitigations in meantime wouldn't be complied with. Nothing of that nature has been put forward by ORR with the previous issues resolved to their satisfaction.

No two cases will ever be identical and the ORR may trust WCRC submissions that bit less with more evidence asked for about why the fitment plan couldn't complete sooner. It's all somewhat irrelevant as the exemption applied for doesn't include a fitment plan and only real difference is a "robust" external risk assessment. The letter from the MPs didn't state that risk assessment concluded it provided equivalent safety to CDL which likely means it didn't say that. In an alternative world where WCRC submitted an application with a fitment plan shortly after the verdict, it's plausible ORR would have continued extending the temporary exemptions until a decision was made on the full application.
 

Wilts Wanderer

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If it leads to his principal competitor enjoying a virtual monopoly Mr Smith may have a bitten rump but those of us who enjoy riding in heritage trains (some for traction, some for routes, some for the social side, some for the destination) will lose out + all those who line the stations and lineside for picture opportunities.

This exactly, 100%. Many don’t seem to grasp that it is the future of a viable mainline charter sector that is at stake here. I doubt many people care about the commercial fortunes of WCRC as a business per-se but they are currently (regrettably) servicing the bulk of the market.

The Jacobite has almost become a distracting focus, the issue here is much wider.

Personally I doubt the owner of LSL particularly cares about providing anything other than exclusive, expensive dining charters and the opportunity to run his selection of locomotives, so without a viable alternative operator, does the more traditional rail tour market just die off?
 

Meerkat

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This exactly, 100%. Many don’t seem to grasp that it is the future of a viable mainline charter sector that is at stake here. I doubt many people care about the commercial fortunes of WCRC as a business per-se but they are currently (regrettably) servicing the bulk of the market.

The Jacobite has almost become a distracting focus, the issue here is much wider.

Personally I doubt the owner of LSL particularly cares about providing anything other than exclusive, expensive dining charters and the opportunity to run his selection of locomotives, so without a viable alternative operator, does the more traditional rail tour market just die off?
If the railtour market relies on mk1s and can’t support CDL costs to make them safe then yes, it will die.
How many of WCRC‘s mk1s are realistic runners?
 

anothertyke

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This exactly, 100%. Many don’t seem to grasp that it is the future of a viable mainline charter sector that is at stake here. I doubt many people care about the commercial fortunes of WCRC as a business per-se but they are currently (regrettably) servicing the bulk of the market.

The Jacobite has almost become a distracting focus, the issue here is much wider.

Personally I doubt the owner of LSL particularly cares about providing anything other than exclusive, expensive dining charters and the opportunity to run his selection of locomotives, so without a viable alternative operator, does the more traditional rail tour market just die off?

I guess everything changes. The loss of the DB/UKRT/Riviera channel is a blow. The possible loss of SRPS on the main line is a blow. It's all looking a bit fragile. I don't see loads of posts claiming that the rail charter business (jacobite aside) is hugely profitable. It will be a very sad day if what is happening at the moment is one more turn of the screw in the direction of fine dining on wheels to the exclusion of the £100 day out market. WCR is not perfect but they have given thousands of people like me a lot of pleasure. Enjoy it while you can!
 

Killingworth

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I guess everything changes. The loss of the DB/UKRT/Riviera channel is a blow. The possible loss of SRPS on the main line is a blow. It's all looking a bit fragile. I don't see loads of posts claiming that the rail charter business (jacobite aside) is hugely profitable. It will be a very sad day if what is happening at the moment is one more turn of the screw in the direction of fine dining on wheels to the exclusion of the £100 day out market. WCR is not perfect but they have given thousands of people like me a lot of pleasure. Enjoy it while you can!
And the price of fine dining and anything else that would be left will not get cheaper without some competition.
 

Bertie the bus

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And the price of fine dining and anything else that would be left will not get cheaper without some competition.
The Northern Belle is CDL fitted and still operating. So there is still competition in the fine dining market.

RTC are still running tours operated by WCRC using compliant stock. So there are still some day out type tours running.

WCRC are still selling tickets for the Dalesman and Scarborough Spa Express despite their claims they will not be running anything in the summer.

You are trying to make this out to be a much bigger thing than it actually is. You are also completely ignoring the fact that if WCRC are permitted to operate at a lower cost than their competitors it could quite feasibly result in WCRC having a monopoly over railtours.
 

DarloRich

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This exactly, 100%. Many don’t seem to grasp that it is the future of a viable mainline charter sector that is at stake here.
is it really? I noticed that WCRC operated Cumbrian Mountain express services through MKC recently have used Mkii. Didn't seem to be many unhappy punters on the platforms..............

I will repeat: Despite what the cognoscenti here think MOST people travelling on these charters wont care what carriage type it is. They want a nice trip out, in a higher level of comfort than you get on a normal train, some top nosh, a decent wine list (or buffet selection in the cheap seats) and a steam train. They don't want to "hear the loco working hard" are any other stuff.

The draw for the normal person is the steam engine, any steam engine NOT the carriage! I always use my mum or partner in these examples. I think they are typical of normal people who might go on one of these services. They honestly would not care about the carriage beyond them being quite grubby in the cheap sections!

Also a mkii carriage is OLD these days!
And the price of fine dining and anything else that would be left will not get cheaper without some competition.
Why should it? The market will bear what the market will bear and the market for those trains is strong: mainly retirees with a nice pot of cash to spend
The price of railtours, whether fine dining or not never gets any cheaper, in fact prices seem to rise every year.
Costs of everything rise year on year. Fuel alone on these trips must be incredible.
 
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Didn't seem to be many unhappy punters on the platforms..............
Main problem is that they only have one of those sets, theirs a Rivera set but they got to fight with UKRT for it.
Also allegedly Smith thinks they are unsuitable for the summer (though UK railtours passengers have sold them out for years.)
 

DarloRich

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Main problem is that they only have one of those sets, theirs a Rivera set but they got to fight with UKRT for it.
Also allegedly Smith thinks they are unsuitable for the summer (though UK railtours passengers have sold them out for years.)
Poor business decisions have a tendency to come home to roost. This situation was completely avoidable as ORR seemed happy with the derogation until they found out it wasn't being applied.

I don't understand how your business allows that to happen. If it was me it would be beaten into everyone how crucial that derogation was and how, on pain of death, you would ensure it was complied with. You would be out on the spot if found not to!
 

RGM654

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is it really? I noticed that WCRC operated Cumbrian Mountain express services through MKC recently have used Mkii. Didn't seem to be many unhappy punters on the platforms..............

I will repeat: Despite what the cognoscenti here think MOST people travelling on these charters wont care what carriage type it is. They want a nice trip out, in a higher level of comfort than you get on a normal train, some top nosh, a decent wine list (or buffet selection in the cheap seats) and a steam train. They don't want to "hear the loco working hard" are any other stuff.

The draw for the normal person is the steam engine, any steam engine NOT the carriage! I always use my mum or partner in these examples. I think they are typical of normal people who might go on one of these services. They honestly would not care about the carriage beyond them being quite grubby in the cheap sections!

Also a mkii carriage is OLD these days!

Why should it? The market will bear what the market will bear and the market for those trains is strong: mainly retirees with a nice pot of cash to spend

Costs of everything rise year on year. Fuel alone on these trips must be incredible.
MkIIs with dodgy or defunct aircon on a hot day give a seriously low level of comfort.
 

Wilts Wanderer

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I think it is too early to judge whether the punters see Mk2F air cons as an adequate replacement for pressure-ventilated stock. The proof will be in a year or two, if customers are coming back for another go. I suspect a fair number of the current WCRC customers (those who can distinguish one coach from another) will only realise they’re not riding in steam-era coaches when they turn up and board the train. TBH I’m not sure how @DarloRich is judging the punters’ enjoyment levels from the platform; are you running along the train with a survey or something?
 

Bikeman78

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MkIIs with dodgy or defunct aircon on a hot day give a seriously low level of comfort.
Agreed. No way am I forking out 100 quid to sit in one of those all day. Mark 2 with opening windows, no problem.
 

DarloRich

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TBH I’m not sure how @DarloRich is judging the punters’ enjoyment levels from the platform; are you running along the train with a survey or something
exactly that - did you fill it in? ;)

The trains look full and I honestly do not think most people care what the carriage is as long as it is fancy and comfortable and a to most "normals" a mkii is old these days - regardless WCRC have brought this on themselves. They had a nice derogation. They didn't comply with it!

Mark 2 with opening windows, no problem.
retro fit them like one of the companies have done or upgrade the aircon. Why look for excuses to justify this situation?
 

Bikeman78

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retro fit them like one of the companies have done or upgrade the aircon. Why look for excuses to justify this situation?
Not looking for excuses, simply stating my position. I doubt many normals would come rushing back after 12 hours with no air con. As you say, put opening windows in.
 
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Most of the times I've been one one the air con worked.

Once, I presume with a Rivera set, it was a mild day but for some reason the ETH got stuck on in one carridge , UKRT had stuffed us into coach B , while coach A sat mostly empty , so we all moved down a coach
 

gswindale

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1 Jun 2010
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As a near "normal", I couldn't tell you what sort of carriage we were stuck in for hours on end at various places in July 2015 - I know we only got about 20 minutes in Appleby in the end. Due to circumstances we haven't had the opportunity to have another day out with family since then, but if the opportunity arose for a trip to somewhere nice with a sensible pick up time, I'd be interested as long as it had comfy seats and decent food! A/C would probably be preferable over open windows to try and minimise the smell of coal smoke penetrating our clothes though.

Do I care how the doors operate? As long as they're open when I need to get on or off and not when the train is in motion, then no.
 

laseandre

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The general theme of this thread is the argument of whether or not it is ridiculous for West Coast’s railtour passengers to have to be locked in or not…
To say that passengers on CDL-fitted trains are "locked in" implies that they are unable to leave in any circumstance - most fitments have some kind of emergency release which can be used when a dire situation dictates that you might want to leave the train without the steward unlocking the doors at your stop in the usual fashion... If, on the other hand, you're suggesting that passenger accessible doors shouldn't be locked while the train is in motion, I hope you're not responsible for anyone's safety but your own.
 

12C

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To say that passengers on CDL-fitted trains are "locked in" implies that they are unable to leave in any circumstance - most fitments have some kind of emergency release which can be used when a dire situation dictates that you might want to leave the train without the steward unlocking the doors at your stop in the usual fashion... If, on the other hand, you're suggesting that passenger accessible doors shouldn't be locked while the train is in motion, I hope you're not responsible for anyone's safety but your own.
If you see my original quote it was just a light hearted reply pointing out the slight irony in a comment which was criticising WCRC’s approach to matters but suggesting that to lock passengers indoors in a boat on the open sea would be “ridiculous” ;).
 

BayPaul

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He clearly hasn't thought this through before commenting.
Those regulations will be to ensure the safety of his boat, not the individual personal safety of his passengers (except for the provision of life jackets etc) - if they were, he would be required to lock his passengers in a cabin while at sea, or install head height railings with locked gates on deck. There is absolutely nothing to stop anyone from jumping/falling/being thrown off most passenger boats, and it happens. Go to the Farne Islands for example, and all you get is "don't stand on the seats, or we'll shout at you" (I also have found that those boats can be very overcrowded).
I don't see the difference. The MCA and ORR both make rules, and the operators follow them, spending money without too much grumbling as rules change. The specifics of the rules aren't particularly relevant. And the MCA rules are very much all about passenger safety, including individual personal safety. The Merchant Shipping Act is famously the longest on the UK books, so there is no shortage of complex legislation to comply with, and presently there is a lot of phasing out of grandfather rights on older passenger boats.
 

The_Van

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The Jacobite issue was featured on ITV lunchtime news today

I didn't see the actual clip unfortunately just the preview
 

Darandio

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The Scotsman has accused WCRC of running empty trains to block other operators from doing so. Unfortunately it's behind a pay wall.


West Coast Railways (WCR) has cancelled at least the first three weeks of the daily service, which attracts Harry Potter fans because of its similarities with the Hogwarts Express, after losing a court battle to run it with carriages that don’t have central door locking.

But another heritage train operator, which has started a West Highlander diesel-hauled service on the line, has accused WCR of blocking use of the railway by running empty trains.

WCR, which had been scheduled to start the Jacobite’s annual summer season two weeks ago, said its trains which ran this week were for crew training. In March, it applied to the Office of Rail and Road (ORR) safety regulator for a further exemption from a ban on using coaches without central locking.

The WCR’s move happened weeks before the start of the season, despite losing its legal battle three months earlier. It has cancelled services until at least April 18, with passengers, who paid up to £105 return, being offered refunds.

Locomotive Services Group (LSG) said it would have liked to use the Jacobite’s time slots, or “paths”, on the 78-mile line while the services were suspended so its passengers could spend longer in Mallaig before returning to Fort William.

Managing director Tony Bush told The Scotsman: “The paths that WCR use are subject to ‘use it or lose it’ clauses in their track access agreement with Network Rail. Nominally, if a path isn’t used for 90 days, Network Rail can offer it to another user. The clock resets after every use.

“So, by using the path this week – I’m told they are only running on days that we do – even with empty stock and no passengers, they are preventing other operators from being offered their use.

"This in fact is a position entirely contrary to [WCR commercial manager] James Shuttleworth’s statements that they are trying to protect the local economy, as unless WCR resolve their issues with ORR, by using central door locking-fitted coaches, they will continue to damage the local area by behaving in this way.

“If the Jacobite paths were available, we would utilise some of them in order to offer a longer dwell time in Mallaig for our West Highlander customers. As it is, we can only work within the remaining timetable available. This would be the same for any other party wishing to operate services between Fort William and Mallaig.”

However, Mr Shuttleworth said: “We continue to appeal to the ORR to renew the exemption, which enables us to operate on the main rail line. We are currently using our paths for crew training to ensure we are ready to operate immediately after an exemption is granted.

"We have spent 30 years developing and building a service which attracts visitors from across the world, and remain firmly committed to it, so ensuring, in the long term, local economies continue to benefit from this unique and much-loved tourist attraction.”

The ORR said it was assessing WCR’s application.
 

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