WCRC loses judicial review in High Court

[Brush 4]

This is going to increasingly break out into the public domain and both locals and tourists will learn the truth and turn against WCRC, who will become well known for the wrong reasons. They have messed up Easter already.

 

[68000]

Just seen the report on the news, that chap from WCR thinks he can dictate the law

 

[D6130]

Just seen the report on the news, that chap from WCR thinks he can dictate the law

Is that Farmer Smith or Mr Shuttleworth?

 

[68000]

James Shuttleworth

 

[D6130]

James Shuttleworth

I thought as much. Farmer Smith has a tendency to stay out of the media spotlight, in case he says anything that may have to be bleeped-out!

 

[PG]

Just seen the report on the news, that chap from WCR thinks he can dictate the law

The Jacobite issue was featured on ITV lunchtime news today

I didn't see the actual clip unfortunately just the preview

James Shuttleworth

I watched his appearance on the STV local news at 6pm. No idea if it was the clip used by ITV at lunchtime. When asked about running coaches without central door locking he said "It is safe" and "not necessary or required" and that DfT should allow WCRC to continue operating. As @68000 says he thinks that he can dictate events. Given WCRCs past record I can't see DfT budging - unless he suddenly discovers a few million quid for the conservative party down the back of the sofa.

 

[Wyrleybart]

I watched his appearance on the STV local news at 6pm. No idea if it was the clip used by ITV at lunchtime. When asked about running coaches without central door locking he said "It is safe" and "not necessary or required" and that DfT should allow WCRC to continue operating. As @68000 says he thinks that he can dictate events. Given WCRCs past record I can't see DfT budging - unless he suddenly discovers a few million quid for the conservative party down the back of the sofa.

If what you have said is correct then they are lies.
CDL is mandatory except where a small number (on one hand) have been granted exemptions - mostly for a matter of months in2024

CDL is required else the ORR wouldn't force operators to use it.

Locking people into trains whilst they are moving is safer than not locking them in.

I think it is the ORR with whom WCR have already crossed swords / caught WCR cheating the enforcements, that are responsible for WCRs "ban" on operating non CDL stock. So i am guessing WCR are trying to negotiate with DfT because their relationship with ORR is sour, but it strikes me dealing with the correct government department is always helpful when trying to negotiate safety issues

 

[43096]

I watched his appearance on the STV local news at 6pm. No idea if it was the clip used by ITV at lunchtime. When asked about running coaches without central door locking he said "It is safe" and "not necessary or required" and that DfT should allow WCRC to continue operating. As @68000 says he thinks that he can dictate events. Given WCRCs past record I can't see DfT budging - unless he suddenly discovers a few million quid for the conservative party down the back of the sofa.

I would hope DfT will simply tell WCRC where to go. It is a regulatory matter (ORR) and shouldn’t be anything to do with DfT.

 

[Gunslinger]

WCRC pulling all of the 'political' strings now. Article in today's Telegraph. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/busines...=Edi_FAM_New_ES20240412&utm_campaign=DM307622

 

[43096]

WCRC pulling all of the 'political' strings now. Article in today's Telegraph. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/busines...=Edi_FAM_New_ES20240412&utm_campaign=DM307622

The last paragraph is the most interesting:

A Department for Transport spokesman said: “The ORR is the independent rail safety regulator, and it would therefore be inappropriate for the department or ministers to intervene in their decision to refuse a further exemption to West Coast Railways, which was upheld by the High Court.”

 

[156421]

WCRC pulling all of the 'political' strings now. Article in today's Telegraph. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/busines...=Edi_FAM_New_ES20240412&utm_campaign=DM307622

is behind a paywall can relevant quotes be provided please?

 

[Spekejunction]

WCRC pulling all of the 'political' strings now. Article in today's Telegraph. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/busines...=Edi_FAM_New_ES20240412&utm_campaign=DM307622

Paywall !

 

[ComUtoR]

West Coast lost a High Court appeal over the ORR’s ruling last December and the regulator is now considering a revised application from the rail company to resume operations.

The company has also requested a temporary licence to permit Jacobite operations over the summer, but with the regulator not expected to respond for several months at least half the season has already been lost.

In the meantime, West Coast has been forced to fully refund passengers who bought tickets for the Hogwarts Express. Some 77,000 tickets costing between £55 and £98 apiece were already sold for a season that should have started last month, meaning more than £4m must be returned to customers.

West Coast said it has been singled out by the ORR as other main line operators have an exemption to use the same carriages affected by the ban.

In their letter to Mr Merriman, the MPs claimed there was no safety reason to justify the refusal to grant the temporary exemption.

West Coast itself has operated with an exemption for the past two decades, while similar rolling stock is also in everyday use on dozens of private heritage railways across Britain, where running speeds limited to 25 mph mean the central locking rule doesn’t apply. The Jacobite operates at up to 40 mph on parts of the West Highland route.

As well as the Hogwarts Express, West Coast also provides locomotives and coaches for the Cumbrian Mountain Express and Dalesman services over the Settle and Carlisle line. It also operates the Great Britain, which takes nine days to tour the country and costs almost £4,000 for a premier berth.

At the December court ruling, the judge upheld evidence presented by the ORR that the cost of installing the door locks could actually be as low as £700,000 and could be covered by a £10 increase in the ticket price of the Jacobite service.

An ORR spokesman said: “The law states companies cannot operate rolling stock with hinged doors for use by fare-paying passengers on the mainline, without the means of centrally locking them in a closed position.

“Other charter heritage operators, which use the mainline railway, have made the necessary investment to install central door locking on ‘hinged door’ rolling stock (or have committed to do so over a transition period) and it remains open to WCRC to do the same.”

A Department for Transport spokesman said: “The ORR is the independent rail safety regulator, and it would therefore be inappropriate for the department or ministers to intervene in their decision to refuse a further exemption to West Coast Railways, which was upheld by the High Court.”

Taken from the last section of the Telegraph article linked above.

 

[Wolfie]

The last paragraph is the most interesting:

The para that you quote is absolutely correct and what l would have written in policy advice for Ministers. For the situation to be otherwise would mean that the supposedly independent regulator actually wasn't. Politicians seeking to benefit one party in the marketplace would likely lead to other parties which incurred expenses litigating too.

The WCRC statement is self-serving duplicitous rubbish too as ORR quite rightly point out. Not only are the exemptions which others have subject to conditions but WCRC lost their own previous exemption due to their own egregious breaches of conditions.

 

[Spekejunction]

Taken from the last section of the Telegraph article linked above.

Thankyou for posting this ..
As someone who spent his life in Industry … mess with the safety authorities at your peril..
At a loss to know how West Coast gets insurance cover ..

 

[NER1621]

Planting slanted stories with GB “News” and the Telegraph indicates that WCRC think there’s mileage in making this a culture wars issue.

Standing to benefit if WCRC are -rightly - told to sling their hook are LSL, which as we know is one of the many tax-avoidance vehicles for the nutter who funds anti-woke conspiracy theorist Laurence Fox.

In Private Eye this week there’s a story about the defamation suit that demented anti-vaxxer conspiracy theorist Andrew Bridgen MP is bringing against Matt Hancock MP.(*)

PE characterises this as one of those “cases ideally both sides would lose.”

That’s how I now feel about the outcome of this issue. I’m retired, reasonably financially comfortable, and very much in the market for mainline steam excursions. But finding out about the horrible entitled “rules don’t apply to me” idiots who seem to dominate that market means both WCRC & LSL aren’t ever going to see a penny from me, and neither are any preserved railways that host their locos.

(*Andrew Bridgen’s legal costs are, of course, also being bankrolled by Hoskings.)

 

[Ken X]

Thankyou for posting this ..
As someone who spent his life in Industry … mess with the safety authorities at your peril..
At a loss to know how West Coast gets insurance cover ..

In my career in engineering insurance we had a couple of cases where the clients behaviour and attitude to risk dictated that our advice was to pull the plug and walk away.

In both cases the insurance company concerned did so as the threat to the business and it's reputation was deemed to be too high.

 

[Dai Corner]

In my career in engineering insurance we had a couple of cases where the clients behaviour and attitude to risk dictated that our advice was to pull the plug and walk away.

In both cases the insurance company concerned did so as the threat to the business and it's reputation was deemed to be too high.

The recent publicity in national newspapers and on TV will surely have brought the matter to the insurer's attention, even if they were previously unaware.

 

[Dunfanaghy Rd]

Reading the comments under the Telegraph article has made me realise just how many oxygen thieves this country has. Morons, most of them.
I can't find my comment trying to put them straight - at least I tried.
Pat

 

[Peter Mugridge]

The recent publicity in national newspapers and on TV will surely have brought the matter to the insurer's attention, even if they were previously unaware.

...then they'll get hammered by the insurer for not declaring a material fact won't they?

Would this be bad enough that they'd lose their cover as a result, and be unable to turn a wheel anywhere until they sort it out?

 

[Bill57p9]

The WCRC statement is self-serving duplicitous rubbish too as ORR quite rightly point out. Not only are the exemptions which others have subject to conditions but WCRC lost their own previous exemption due to their own egregious breaches of conditions.

It might be splitting hairs, however let's be clear on cause and effect here: WCRC did not lose their previous exemption for breaches.

They (along with other operators) had an exemption to use secondary rather than central door locking until 31 March 2023.

Other operators were granted a further 5 year exemption from April 2023 having agreed a plan with ORR to fit CDL during this window.

WCRC launched legal action instead and were granted a temporary exemption whilst the case was ongoing.
During this period, they were found to be breaching their exemption conditions on the Jacobite and were accordingly issued a prohibition notice on the Jacobite (only), which was subsequently resolved.

ORR revoked WCRC's temporary exemption on conclusion of the high court case.

ORR's statement in the article demonstrates that WCRC are being treated equally and without prejudice - which was one of the high court findings.

 

[Wolfie]

It might be splitting hairs, however let's be clear on cause and effect here: WCRC did not lose their previous exemption for breaches.

They (along with other operators) had an exemption to use secondary rather than central door locking until 31 March 2023.

Other operators were granted a further 5 year exemption from April 2023 having agreed a plan with ORR to fit CDL during this window.

WCRC launched legal action instead and were granted a temporary exemption whilst the case was ongoing.
During this period, they were found to be breaching their exemption conditions on the Jacobite and were accordingly issued a prohibition notice on the Jacobite (only), which was subsequently resolved.

ORR revoked WCRC's temporary exemption on conclusion of the high court case.

ORR's statement in the article demonstrates that WCRC are being treated equally and without prejudice - which was one of the high court findings.

TY for that. You are absolutely correct that accuracy is key here.

 

[68000]

Here is a link to the ITV news report from yesterday evening, the STV news had the same interview with Shuttleworth

https://www.itv.com/watch/news/push-to-get-harry-potters-hogwarts-express-back-on-track-after-service-suspended/kw0ngdg

 

[Gunslinger]

Interesting development. Wonder where this CDL-compliant stock has come from? https://www.railadvent.co.uk/2024/04/scotlands-jacobite-steam-train-services-to-resume.html

 

[Oscar46016]

Interesting development. Wonder where this CDL-compliant stock has come from? https://www.railadvent.co.uk/2024/04/scotlands-jacobite-steam-train-services-to-resume.html

Perhaps towing a 156!

 

[Spekejunction]

Interesting development. Wonder where this CDL-compliant stock has come from? https://www.railadvent.co.uk/2024/04/scotlands-jacobite-steam-train-services-to-resume.html

Well problem solved !….

 

[Essan]

West Coast Railways have confirmed that the Jacobite steam train will resume from the 15th April.

The Jacobite is popular with passengers around the world but had to be suspended as the operator awaited a temporary exemption that would allow it to operate the trains without central door locking.

WCRC is to introduce a fleet of carriages with central door locking from the 15th April with passengers asked to rebook if their journey was cancelled.

Trains will be shorter than usual with no Harry Potter coach and reduced First-Class capacity.

The carriages will only be used until WCRC can secure the exemption to allow the usual Mark 1 and Mark 2 coaches to be used.

Usually from May, the Jacobite is ran twice a day, but with the reduced capacity, The Jacobite will only run the morning service.

“We are thrilled to have the Jacobite back up and running and look forward to welcoming customers on board. The team has done an exceptional job in getting a fleet of carriages ready to kick-start our 2024 season.
“We continue to engage both the ORR and Department for Transport with a request for the temporary exemption so that we can operate our heritage carriages on the main line. Our customers have told us for many years that travelling in these carriages is a highlight of the Jacobite experience. The exemption will also enable us to run an extra First-Class carriage and our famous Harry Potter carriage.
“For now, we are delighted that we can start to take visitors across the Scottish Highlands to visit Fort William, Mallaig and Glenfinnan. We understand those communities have been impacted by the suspension of the Jacobite and I hope this offers reassurance to local business owners.”
James Shuttleworth, Commercial Manager, West Coast Railways

Scotland's Jacobite steam train services to resume

West Coast Railways have confirmed that the Jacobite steam train will resume from the 15th April.

www.railadvent.co.uk

 

[mpthomson]

...then they'll get hammered by the insurer for not declaring a material fact won't they?

Would this be bad enough that they'd lose their cover as a result, and be unable to turn a wheel anywhere until they sort it out?

I'm sure any insurer will have been fully aware of these shenanigans throughout. It's a very niche market after all.

Interesting development. Wonder where this CDL-compliant stock has come from? https://www.railadvent.co.uk/2024/04/scotlands-jacobite-steam-train-services-to-resume.html

They already have compliant Mk 2s.

 

[SuperLuke2334]

I'm sure any insurer will have been fully aware of these shenanigans throughout. It's a very niche market after all.


They already have compliant Mk 2s.

The Mk2s will be running the Great Britain tour, at least to start.

 

[341o2]

And how far they could have got during the low season to have carriages ready for when the season returns....

I have absolutely no doubt a lot of the press will paint this as H&S against the world.

The Daily Telegraph has just caught up with the story, implying that this will be the end of steam trains in Britain