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We need High speed Rail, but Is HS2 really Needed?

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B&I

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But overall the Liverpool area will certainly gain, so...


So why, uniquely among core cities served by HS2, must the city of Liverpool be put at risk of economic shrinkage ? Or is your view that that doesn't matter ?

Or, if we assume that Liverpool (whether the city of the city region) is likely to experience GVA uplift due to HS2, is it just jealousy to want to benefit from HS2 as much as other areas will ? Or is it entirely sensible in an era when local authorities are being defunded and forced into a struggle amongst themselves for financial survival ?
 
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DavidGrain

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I have got a little behind in my reading so I am catching up on the last three or four days. Quite frankly I have skipped the last three pages of this thread about Liverpool. Is it not time for the moderators to do as newspaper editors used to do and say correspondence on this subject is now closed.
 

jyte

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Agreed, I would very much like it if
1) this thread was closed
or
2) discussions about whether HS2 should or should not directly serve Liverpool be spun off into a different dedicated thread.
 

Camden

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On the topic of "spinning off", please can the junk topic of HS(2 or other) be moved to the sub-area that most people can easily avoid.

Thanks.
 

Shaw S Hunter

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On the topic of "spinning off", please can the junk topic of HS(2 or other) be moved to the sub-area that most people can easily avoid.

Thanks.

TBF the thread includes "HS2" in the title. Therefore you have a clear indication of the subject matter and are free to simply choose not to read it.
 

Shaw S Hunter

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You should actually consider where the data in that Wikipedia article comes from. It's the result of the EU's ESPON project which is a bureaucratic exercise designed to inform the structural regeneration process. At one point that project, when talking about regions, thought it appropriate to lump Ashford (Kent) and Dover with Calais and Lille! If you look at the linked article in more detail it would have us believe that places like Southend, Reading, Basingstoke and Haywards Heath are part of London, that Chesterfield and Doncaster are part of Sheffield and that Macclesfield is part of Manchester. As previously mentioned it lists Chester, Warrington and Wigan as being part of Liverpool, but since Wigan is part of Greater Manchester its population has been double counted. That's not what I would call reliable data and therefore not useful in support of your argument.

From what I have read about ESPON it seems that this data was influenced by travel-to-work patterns but ignores the fact that many so-called dormitory towns supply labour to more than one place and that two-way commuter flows also exist. Bureaucrats in Brussels however are minded to ignore such details in order to simplify their tasks.

ETA: I have just checked the 20 Miles More campaign's report about HS2 to Liverpool and they too have used the same unreliable figures. It's a shame that people campaigning on such a serious issue don't take more care to check their information. The joys of living in a post-truth world I suppose...
 
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B&I

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You should actually consider where the data in that Wikipedia article comes from. It's the result of the EU's ESPON project which is a bureaucratic exercise designed to inform the structural regeneration process. At one point that project, when talking about regions, thought it appropriate to lump Ashford (Kent) and Dover with Calais and Lille! If you look at the linked article in more detail it would have us believe that places like Southend, Reading, Basingstoke and Haywards Heath are part of London, that Chesterfield and Doncaster are part of Sheffield and that Macclesfield is part of Manchester. As previously mentioned it lists Chester, Warrington and Wigan as being part of Liverpool, but since Wigan is part of Greater Manchester its population has been double counted. That's not what I would call reliable data and therefore not useful in support of your argument.

From what I have read about ESPON it seems that this data was influenced by travel-to-work patterns but ignores the fact that many so-called dormitory towns supply labour to more than one place and that two-way commuter flows also exist. Bureaucrats in Brussels however are minded to ignore such details in order to simplify their tasks.

ETA: I have just checked the 20 Miles More campaign's report about HS2 to Liverpool and they too have used the same unreliable figures. It's a shame that people campaigning on such a serious issue don't take more care to check their information. The joys of living in a post-truth world I suppose...


Why are you posting exactly the same thing on this thread as you posted on the 'HS2 and Liverpool' thread, when everyone else has abandoned this thread ? It's like watching someone drink in their own in a pub with the lights off.
 

The Ham

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Why are you posting exactly the same thing on this thread as you posted on the 'HS2 and Liverpool' thread, when everyone else has abandoned this thread ? It's like watching someone drink in their own in a pub with the lights off.

Possibly because they were replying to a post and then saw the post about the new thread where they repeated the post starting that they had already posted it on here.

Now that it is harder to delete your own posts it's a reasonable thing to do.
 
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