We need your help: Campaign for Family Friendly Trains - Collating information on accessibility of different makes of trains

[bringbackcrouc]

Dear All,

We're looking for volunteers for a variety of tasks as part of the campaign for family friendly trains.

One of our tasks is to build up a database of where wheelchair and multi-use space is on various trains. So for example, if you're travelling on GWR intercity you need to first know whether the train is five car, nine-car or ten car and that if you're travelling on a nine car, you want coach A standard class which is not at the London end (unless it is in reverse formation).

If anyone has any in depth knowledge and time on their hands we're looking for volunteers to take one TOC each (I've got Southeastern). We'd be incredibly grateful.

You can read about our campaign here: https://familyfriendlytrains.com/ (any feedback on the website welcome)

With best wishes,

JC

 

[ComUtoR]

I hate to be rude but your 'Solution' is kinda stupid. Bit of a strong opinion I know but dedicated spaces just don't work. What happens is that you end up fighting for the space as they tend to fit a single pram/pushchair so only one parent and pram per unit just leads to conflict. What also happens is that the spaces get 'shared' with Bikes of wheelchairs which also leads to conflict.

May I also ask what other facilities are you looking for is this just a campaign for pushchair spaces ?



Disclaimer : Parent of two (now slightly grown up) children.

 

[bringbackcrouc]

It's a fair point, but shall we develop this discussion on a separate forum?

 

[davart]

Isn't the problem largely as a result of pushchairs getting more 'heavy-duty' and less collapsible compared to those years ago, which were lightweight and folded into a slim profile for storage on bus luggage racks and such like?

It's nice if one can wheel on and off of course, but what happens when more than one person needs the space as mentioned above?

A good idea on paper. In practice, less so.

 

[Mogz]

As a daily user of long distance trains for work that takes me all over the UK, and a frequent user of trains for leisure travel in the UK and Europe… AND the parent of two young children… I can tell you that the Continental Europeans do child-friendly travel FAR better than we do here.

Whenever I have pointed out the DB family compartments on ICE trains or family carriages on Scandinavian trains, it is usually met with a naysaying attitude to the effect that we can’t expect to have things like that in the UK.

 

[yorkie]

To be clear, if this is a discussion regarding proposals to change UK trains, we would need to move this thread into the Speculative Discussion section.

If anyone sees a thread in the wrong section, please report it using the report link; otherwise if anyone wishes to discuss speculation within a non-speculative thread, please create a new thread in the appropriate section (feel free to link to it from the existing thread)

Thanks

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

Pushchairs can't collapse if you got two kids and four shopping bags on the handles. Mums need hands free to look after the little ones not folding stuff up on a busy train with strangers.

Booked assistance with my Mum's wheelchair is a complete waste of time.
And because the message never gets through, you get lectured by the guard that you should have booked.
Guards aren't there with the ramp, or in sight, so you get on yourself as it's about to go, and you get a telling off by the guard. Really puts my Mum off train travel at times.
(We have literally got on dozens of trains unassisted with no issues ever, but they insist we should of missed the connections).
Sheffield is worst for not showing up, sometimes I even go to the station masters office while waiting and tell the earlier connection had no help, they promise help and nothing happens.

 

[MCSHF007]

I for one would love to know which trains are promoted as "family friendly". Forewarned is forearmed. Maybe another train, maybe a bus, maybe just not travel.

 

[Towers]

OP; sorry to add more cold water, but just as an illustration of how this may pan out I'd have to point out the there is no "multi use" space on GWR 'intercity' - the area you mention is a standard class wheelchair space; it exists only on 9 car trains, doesn't exist on 5 or 10 car trains, and is located in the designated quiet coach - not the first place you'd want to travel with young children! The official policy is that pushchairs must be folded, there is no designated provision for them on board. Given the number of long distance fleets now using the same type of train, I would presume similar policies likely exist elsewhere.

There might well be a valid discussion to be had about the merits or otherwise of that situation, but that's probably a slightly different topic! Sorry!

I for one would love to know which trains are promoted as "family friendly". Forewarned is forearmed. Maybe another train, maybe a bus, maybe just not travel.

Sadly, the "family coach" is a product of several decades ago! ☹

 

[jopsuk]

wheelchair space has legal protection and railway staff can require pushchairs, bikes etc to be removed from there- indeed, they must require such things are moved should a passenger in a wheelchair board. They are not multiuse spaces.

 

[AM9]

wheelchair space has legal protection and railway staff can require pushchairs, bikes etc to be removed from there- indeed, they must require such things are moved should a passenger in a wheelchair board. They are not multiuse spaces.

That's what so many passengers who travel with push chairs get so wrong. Wheelchair access is a necessity for most of those that use them, unlike push chairs which are almost universally a lifestyle choice - or the direct consequences of a lifestyle choice. The situation is not only exacerbated by their ever increasing size, but also the user's expectation that they have an inalienable right to park these things fully laden with enough domestic paraphernalia to support a weekend break.
If wheelchair users needs are legally entitled to a space, there needs to be a legal obligation on the owner of the space (Inthis case, the TOCs) to enforce that provision.
In the greater sense, either the able majority of the public accepts the rights or the law should be reverted to ignoring their needs as in the past.

 

[EcsWhyZee]

That's what so many passengers who travel with push chairs get so wrong. Wheelchair access is a necessity for most of those that use them, unlike push chairs which are almost universally a lifestyle choice - or the direct consequences of a lifestyle choice. The situation is not only exacerbated by their ever increasing size, but also the user's expectation that they have an inalienable right to park these things fully laden with enough domestic paraphernalia to support a weekend break.
If wheelchair users needs are legally entitled to a space, there needs to be a legal obligation on the owner of the space (Inthis case, the TOCs) to enforce that provision.
In the greater sense, either the able majority of the public accepts the rights or the law should be reverted to ignoring their needs as in the past.

Referring to having kids as a "lifestyle choice" in a negative fashion when it is literally the only reason for an organism to exist is a bit odd.

I think having pushchair spaces is a good idea on new-build services (such as HS2) where provision can be baked in. Unfortunately adding them to already rammed trains elsewhere on the network might cause more harm than good.

 

[Nick Ashwell]

The OP wanting a database of wheelchair spaces for use by pushchair users honestly scares and seriously alarms me.

There isn't enough wheelchair provision as it is as I've learnt having a disabled sister and the world is still full of people who don't think of the effect their actions have on wheelchair users.

How about pushchair users fold instead of wasting space on already congested services?

Wheelchair spaces are not for the use of pushchairs and to solve issues I personally believe TOCs should ban keeping pushchairs in these areas as I've seen enough times on buses and trains that pushchair users seem to think they're as important as providing travel to wheelchair users!

 

[skyhigh]

The OP wanting a database of wheelchair spaces for use by pushchair users honestly scares and seriously alarms me.

There isn't enough wheelchair provision as it is as I've learnt having a disabled sister and the world is still full of people who don't think of the effect their actions have on wheelchair users.

How about pushchair users fold instead of wasting space on already congested services?

Wheelchair spaces are not for the use of pushchairs and to solve issues I personally believe TOCs should ban keeping pushchairs in these areas as I've seen enough times on buses and trains that pushchair users seem to think they're as important as providing travel to wheelchair users!

Think you're being a little bit unfair here. The post could have been worded better but the website makes it clear they're campaigning for dedicated space on trains for pushchairs. As their website says:

Why can’t parents use the disabled space on trains?

By law, wheelchair users have priority over pushchairs and prams on trains. This is the only space wheelchair users can travel safely on a train and all passengers should know and respect this.

 

[davart]

I wonder if it's possible to design trains where a section of seats can fold and swivel/pivot against the wall and wheelchair clamps be inserted into tracks in the floor by a guard.

This is how the back of an ambulance worked when I transported patients in wheelchairs.

This would be in addition to the existing dedicated spaces. Might be a useful 'overspill' should 2 wheelchair users board simultaneously.

 

[L401CJF]

I find the Merseyrail Class 507/508 good for pram use. Each 3 car unit has 1 designated wheelchair user space and 1 cycle space in the end coaches (ie 2 of each per unit).

I've used them many a time with a pram and found that I could usually use the cycle or wheelchair space (of course moving if required by a wheelchair user). A large number of cycles on the trains just stand up by the doors (or leave the bike blocking the trackside door if on a line where most stops are on one side such as Chester/Ellesmere Port). In the event of having to move, I've found standing by the door with the pram to work well for shorter journeys. Also as all the seating is 4x4 facing eachother layout, if you've got a small pram and travelling alone, it'll fit in one set of 4 with enough space to sit down.

Obviously journeys taken on merseyrail are local and not long distance, but I've not once had any issues with the exception of the odd Saturday afternoon where services are full and standing (as you'd expect anywhere)

 

[AM9]

I wonder if it's possible to design trains where a section of seats can fold and swivel/pivot against the wall and wheelchair clamps be inserted into tracks in the floor by a guard.

This is how the back of an ambulance worked when I transported patients in wheelchairs.

This would be in addition to the existing dedicated spaces. Might be a useful 'overspill' should 2 wheelchair users board simultaneously.

Of course all these things are possible, even in existing stock at a refit. The problem is getting the able bodied public to acknowledge that if they occupy space in these convertible areas that they must immediately vacate them if a wheelchair user boards. There's a 'I was here first' self entitlement attitude that must frustrate those that need them.
Other than education, penalties for disregarding the rules would seem to be the only way to achieve this. I've travelled on service buses in NYC pulling up at a bus stop where a wheelchair passenger was about to board. There was no need to tell the passengers who had sat in the convertible seats at the front, - they moved back before the driver had even extended the ramp. There was even an instance where the passengers had to stand as there were no other seats.
I've often thought that the attitude amongst the US public can be even less caring than the worst Anglo-Saxon examples here but it was a pleasant surprise to be proven wrong.

 

[43096]

Of course all these things are possible, even in existing stock at a refit. The problem is getting the able bodied public to acknowledge that if they occupy space in these convertible areas that they must immediately vacate them if a wheelchair user boards. There's a 'I was here first' self entitlement attitude that must frustrate those that need them.

The flip side of that is that everyone (in theory at least!) has paid for a ticket so has equal entitlement to use the accommodation on the train. Isn't that called "equality"?

Before anyone starts, I'm playing devil's advocate.

 

[AM9]

The flip side of that is that everyone (in theory at least!) has paid for a ticket so has equal entitlement to use the accommodation on the train. Isn't that called "equality"?

Before anyone starts, I'm playing devil's advocate.

The laws talk about 'equal opportunities' not equal entitlement, so if a person with a disability can only have a healthy/safe/enjoyable, journey in this case, by the provision of 'reasonable adjustments', they have absolute priority to that provision over those that do not have such a need.
That is how I would view the situation, especially when facing a 'devils advocate'.
Of course a reasonable and considerate person would not need reminding of the need for them to allow a disabled person to make use of those reasonable adjustments.