Weird Fare for Oxford - Isle of Wight

[ywy1234]

I tried to search a return fare between Oxford and East Cowes, I found an Anytime return is cheaper than an off-peak return?

Is that a common phenomenon across the national rail network?

 

[yorkie]

Can you clarify the destination and what fares you found please?

The closest destination I can find to 'East Cowes' is Cowes East RFSHP [ECW]

The only fare I can see from Oxford to ECW is £52.00 Off Peak Return.

 

[ywy1234]

Can you clarify the destination and what fares you found please?

The closest destination I can find to 'East Cowes' is Cowes East RFSHP [ECW]

The only fare I can see from Oxford to ECW is £52.00 Off Peak Return.

Yes, it is OXF-ECW, I tried brfares.com, there is indeed only a 52 off peak return.

But if you try NRE or thetrainline and WebTIS book engines, you will find an 49.10 anytime fare.

 

[wintonian]

I don't know why Avantix shows only 1 fare but fares to East Cowes are calculated as follows:

Origin - Southampton Central

+

The appropriate add on amount as bellow

£7.60 - Single (FOS, FDS, FSX, SOS, SDS, CDS, OPD)
£7.60 - Advance (All Advance ticket types)
£14.00 - Anytime Day Return (FDR, SDR)
£14.00 - Off-Peak Day Return (CDR, SCO, FRX)
£15.20 - Open Return (FOR, SOR)
£15.20 - Period Return (SVR, SSR, VAR, VBR, VCR)

(Note all singles have a 1 day validity)

Railcards
HM forces, Jobcentre Plus railcards discounted fares have an extra additional amount that needs to be added. Officially there are various minium fares for railcards dependent on the ticket type.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The off peak will be the £49.10 SVR I expect and the £52 fare is the SDR.

The SVR has a 1 month validity on the return and the SDR is a "same day return"

 

[Paul Kelly]

If you subtract £15.20 (the add-on value given by wintonian for an Anytime Return) from the quoted £49.10 fare, it gives £33.90 - which is the Anytime Day Return fare from Oxford - Southampton. I wonder where the booking engines are getting their figures from.

 

[ywy1234]

If you subtract £15.20 (the add-on value given by wintonian for an Anytime Return) from the quoted £49.10 fare, it gives £33.90 - which is the Anytime Day Return fare from Oxford - Southampton. I wonder where the booking engines are getting their figures from.

But the ticket £49.10 is not an anytime day return ticket, it was indeed an anytime return that outbound and inbound can be used on different dates as shown on booking engines and NRE.

 

[Paul Kelly]

Yes exactly - that's why I was suggesting it was strange

 

[wintonian]

If you subtract £15.20 (the add-on value given by wintonian for an Anytime Return) from the quoted £49.10 fare, it gives £33.90 - which is the Anytime Day Return fare from Oxford - Southampton. I wonder where the booking engines are getting their figures from.

Thats what I ment to say £49.10 is the SDR and £52 is the SVR.

Having since looked at SWT the SVR is correct but they do indeed think that £49.10 is an SOR with no SDR available, but there should be no SOR available as there is not one to Southampton Central.

I wonder what this ticket actually says on it, and I must remember to have a look next time I pass a Southern machine.

 

[benk1342]

I don't know why Avantix shows only 1 fare but fares to East Cowes are calculated as follows:

Origin - Southampton Central

+

The appropriate add on amount as bellow

£7.60 - Single (FOS, FDS, FSX, SOS, SDS, CDS, OPD)
£7.60 - Advance (All Advance ticket types)
£14.00 - Anytime Day Return (FDR, SDR)
£14.00 - Off-Peak Day Return (CDR, SCO, FRX)
£15.20 - Open Return (FOR, SOR)
£15.20 - Period Return (SVR, SSR, VAR, VBR, VCR)

Stop the presses---what are these fare "calculations" and "add-ons" you speak of? This method of explaining how a fare is calculated is news to me.

 

[wintonian]

Stop the presses---what are these fare "calculations" and "add-ons" you speak of? This method of explaining how a fare is calculated is news to me.

Thats what it says in a printout from the manual I have. Prehaps someone with access to it will clarify?

 

[swt_passenger]

Don't they provide details of the calculation for use when an origin does not happen to have a through fare loaded in the database?

For many origins a through fare will already exist?

 

[wintonian]

Don't they provide details of the calculation for use when an origin does not happen to have a through fare loaded in the database?

For many origins a through fare will already exist?

Yes many (most?) origins do have a fare in the system and I think these are derived from the same calculations, which as you say are used when no fare exists.

 

[benk1342]

Don't they provide details of the calculation for use when an origin does not happen to have a through fare loaded in the database?

Who are "they"?

Yes many (most?) origins do have a fare in the system and I think these are derived from the same calculations, which as you say are used when no fare exists.

Where is this calculation information available? I'm just curious about it.

 

[wintonian]

Who are "they"?



Where is this calculation information available? I'm just curious about it.

I gave it here but for the full info and railcard add on amounts you would need to ask your friendly TOC for a print out of the relevent section from the manual.

Unless someone here with access is kind enough to provide a PDF of the relevent section.

 

[benk1342]

I gave it here

Right, I saw that; I meant where is the information about how to calculate fares this way available more generally, not just for this specific journey.

 

[All Line Rover]

Right, I saw that; I meant where is the information about how to calculate fares this way available more generally, not just for this specific journey.

There is no way to "calculate" fares. Wintonian was just listing the fares available for that journey. The entire database of fares is available to purchase here. This software also calculates the appropriate discounts - for Railcards, staff, children, etc...

 

[benk1342]

There is no way to "calculate" fares.

That's what I thought, which is why I was surprised when he said "fares to East Cowes are calculated as follows" and then did some math with a Southampton fare plus "add ons". He then later said that a calculation is used when there is no origin in the database. The best I can figure now is that for the tickets including the ferry, the fare can indeed be "calculated" with a Southampton fare plus an "add on" for the ferry.

Wintonian was just listing the fares available for that journey.

Actually, I think the original problem that started this thread was that Avantix (which I have, thank you) lists only a £52 off-peak return for the journey.

 

[All Line Rover]

Actually, I think the original problem that started this thread was that Avantix (which I have, thank you) lists only a £52 off-peak return for Oxford - East Cowes.

I have Avantix Traveller and it lists the following for Oxford to ECW:

• FOR - £91.90
• FOS - £67.60
• SVR - £52.00
• SOR - £49.10
• SOS - £41.10

...so I'm not sure why your copy doesn't display some of those fares


For Southampton to ECW it lists the following:

• SOR - £15.20
• SVR - £15.20
• CDR - £14.00
• SDR - £14.00
• SDS - £7.60

I'm not too sure what Wintonian is going on about with the FOR's and whatnot.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That's what I thought, which is why I was surprised when he said "fares to East Cowes are calculated as follows" and then did some math with a Southampton fare plus "add ons". He then later said that a calculation is used when there is no origin in the database. The best I can figure now is that for the tickets including the ferry, the fare can indeed be "calculated" with a Southampton fare plus an "add on" for the ferry.

That would seem to make sense but I can't find a station that has no through fare to ECW - even Kyle of Lochalsh has a through fare to ECW!

 

[benk1342]

I have Avantix Traveller and it lists the following for Oxford to ECW:

• FOR - £91.90
• FOS - £67.60
• SVR - £52.00
• SOR - £49.10
• SOS - £41.10

...so I'm not sure why your copy doesn't display some of those fares


For Southampton to ECW it lists the following:

• SOR - £15.20
• SVR - £15.20
• CDR - £14.00
• SDR - £14.00
• SDS - £7.60

I'm not too sure what Wintonian is going on about with the FOR's and whatnot.

I'm not at home right now so am just looking at brfares.com which only lists the £52 fare for some reason. I've always assumed that the results were identical but apparently not!

 

[wintonian]

That is just how fares to East Cowes are calculated.

In other words you take the normal fare from any station to Southampton Central and add the amount above to it.

I am assuming that revenue is allocated to the TOC's in the normal way and the whole of the add on amount goes to Redfunnel. Railcard fares are worked out slightly diffrently which will effect the way they are allocated.

The same principle works for all flows to IOW port destinations with diffrent add on amounts.

Tthrough fares with Hovertravel and Wightlink will be different, possibly along the lines of; mainland origin – mainland port station + IOW port station – IOW station + add on fare, but thats just guessing.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That's what I thought, which is why I was surprised when he said "fares to East Cowes are calculated as follows" and then did some math with a Southampton fare plus "add ons". He then later said that a calculation is used when there is no origin in the database. The best I can figure now is that for the tickets including the ferry, the fare can indeed be "calculated" with a Southampton fare plus an "add on" for the ferry.



Actually, I think the original problem that started this thread was that Avantix (which I have, thank you) lists only a £52 off-peak return for the journey.

Prehaps I should have used the phrase 'derived from' rather than 'calculated from'

I have Avantix Traveller and it lists the following for Oxford to ECW:

• FOR - £91.90
• FOS - £67.60
• SVR - £52.00
• SOR - £49.10
• SOS - £41.10

...so I'm not sure why your copy doesn't display some of those fares


For Southampton to ECW it lists the following:

• SOR - £15.20
• SVR - £15.20
• CDR - £14.00
• SDR - £14.00
• SDS - £7.60

I'm not too sure what Wintonian is going on about with the FOR's and whatnot.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


That would seem to make sense but I can't find a station that has no through fare to ECW - even Kyle of Lochalsh has a through fare to ECW!

NFM 11 is only giving me the £52 fare as it does for yorkie in post #12. NFM 10 however show no fares for OXF - ECW.

As to why these add on amount exists, looking at this post on uk.railway from 2005 it seems this may have had something to with technical issues that prevented APTIS from issuing through SVR's in the NSE area.

 

[All Line Rover]

That is just how fares to East Cowes are calculated.

In other words you take the normal fare from any station to Southampton Central and add the amount above to it.

I am assuming that revenue is allocated to the TOC's in the normal way and the whole of the add on amount goes to Redfunnel. Railcard fares are worked out slightly diffrently which will effect the way they are allocated.

The same principle works for all flows to IOW port destinations with diffrent add on amounts.

Tthrough fares with Hovertravel and Wightlink will be different, possibly along the lines of; mainland origin – mainland port station + IOW port station – IOW station + add on fare, but thats just guessing.

Thank you for the clarification. It must be stressed that this is unusual, and that there is no national way to "calculate" train fares.

NFM 11 is only giving me the £52 fare as it does for yorkie in post #12. NFM 10 however show no fares for OXF - ECW.

Looking at this post on uk.railway from 2005 it seems this may have had something to with technical issues that prevented APTIS from issuing through SVR's in the NSE area.

I have NFM12, which has fares for both NFM11 and NFM12. Strangely, the fares I quoted earlier appear for NFM11 dates, but from 20th May (NFM12 dates) only the £52 SVR fare appears!

 

[wintonian]

In order that everyone is able to talk from the same hymn sheet and I don't start confusing people again here is a copy of the PDF for ECW that I have.

 

[kieron]

Yes, it is OXF-ECW, I tried brfares.com, there is indeed only a 52 off peak return.

But if you try NRE or thetrainline and WebTIS book engines, you will find an 49.10 anytime fare.

I've just tried brfares.com, and it lists FOS, FOR, SVR, SOR and SOS fares. The FOR and SOR fares are the Oxford-Southampton day return fares added to the open return supplement.

 

[benk1342]

I've just tried brfares.com, and it lists FOS, FOR, SVR, SOR and SOS fares. The FOR and SOR fares are the Oxford-Southampton day return fares added to the open return supplement.

Believe it or not, I think it was updated to NFM12 today. Earlier today it said the fares were current as of 2 Jan 12, and now it says 22 Apr 12.

 

[kieron]

Believe it or not, I think it was updated to NFM12 today. Earlier today it said the fares were current as of 2 Jan 12, and now it says 22 Apr 12.

It's good when problems are resolved so quickly.

 

[ywy1234]

Thats what I ment to say £49.10 is the SDR and £52 is the SVR.

Having since looked at SWT the SVR is correct but they do indeed think that £49.10 is an SOR with no SDR available, but there should be no SOR available as there is not one to Southampton Central.

I wonder what this ticket actually says on it, and I must remember to have a look next time I pass a Southern machine.

I just came back Oxford from IOW, I can now confirm that the ticket priced £49.10 is indeed an SOR.