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Weird Sleeper train formation in 1991 video

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USRailFan

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Video from Watford Junction in summer 1991 seems to show two (presumably northbound) night trains:
The first one is at around 4:15, hauled by a Class 87 and has a pretty weird formation of 2 Motorail GUVs, 3 SLE/SLEP, 1 TSO, 2 BSO with the van areas facing each other, 2 TSO. Strangely large amount of seating cars for a night train of that era.
The second one is at around 10:25, hauled by a Class 90 with a formation that looks like 4 Motorail GUVs, 6 SLE/SLEP, 1 RLO, 3 SLE/SLEP, TSO, BSO - which from what I understand was the standard Anglo-Scottish sleeper formation at that time.
The last-mentioned train is pretty certainly the Euston - Glasgow sleeper, or possibly the Euston - Edinburgh one. But the first one makes little sense with the large number of seating and the weird placement of the BSOs. Possibly the rear two TSOs + BSO are extra stock added for transfer to Scotland? Or the one BSO is to make up for a lack of a TSO? Or is it some sort of charter service?
 
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MichaelAMW

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Given it's not too dark, I would hazard a guess it's the Fort William, which was something like 2105 off Euston, and certainly conveyed a decent number of seats. I wouldn't read anything into back-to-back BSOs - that arrangement was common, e.g. Waterloo-Exeter sets and the MkIIs that worked out of Paddington to Birmingham and places like Westbury, in the peak. It wasn't common on the WCML in general, as BGs or similar were used (DVTs later) but in principle it was normal enough.
 
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MichaelAMW said:
Given it's not too dark, I would hazard a guess it's the Fort William, which was something like 2105 off Euston, and certainly conveyed a decent number of seats. I wouldn't read anything into back-to-back BSOs - that arrangement was common, e.g. Waterloo-Exeter sets and the MkIIs that worked out of Paddington to Birmingham and places like Westbury, in the peak. It wasn't common on the WCML in general, as BGs or similar were used (DVTs later) but in principle it was normal enough.
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I don't think FW ever had an independant train from Euston, nor a train of that length on the WHL. Seating to FW was typically two coahces. The only way I could envisage it being FW could be if perhaps the rear BSO and 2TSO were for another destination, possibly Glasgow detaching probably at Carstairs although I would observe there seem to be very few seated passengers. Unfortunately I have neither TT nor Marshalling book of that era.

Alternatively, was there ever Motorail to Stranraer? Stranraer always had more seats than FW, and the position of the BSOs could be to do with platforms at e.g. Girvan.
 
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P Binnersley

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It may be a Nightrider service, I'm not sure when they finished but I remember taking one from Rugby to Glasgow in the late 80s / early 90s.
 
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MichaelAMW

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Cheshire Scot said:
I don't think FW ever had an independant train from Euston, nor a train of that length on the WHL. Seating to FW was typically two coahces. The only way I could envisage it being FW could be if perhaps the rear BSO and 2TSO were for another destination, possibly Glasgow detaching probably at Carstairs although I would observe there seem to be very few seated passengers. Unfortunately I have neither TT nor Marshalling book of that era.

Alternatively, was there ever Motorail to Stranraer? Stranraer always had more seats than FW, and the position of the BSOs could be to do with platforms at e.g. Girvan.
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According to my timetable archive, in summer 1991 there was an independent train to FW, although it did run via Edinburgh and so could have dropped off something there. An alternative, although I would have expected more sleeper cars, is the Night Aberdonian on Saturday, as this ran earllier on that day.
 
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The sleeper seen towards the end just runs past the station, but the first sleeper (the one we're discussing) makes a stop - does the timetable say anything about whether the Ft Bill or the Aberdeen trains actually stopped at Watford?
I think there might also have been a separate Euston - Carlisle sleeper at this point?

Fort William sleeper in June 1991 - looks like 2 Motorail GUVs, 3 SLE/SLEP and 2 Mk2s, suggesting the "mystery" sleeper in the OP youtube may well be the Fort Bill sleeper with extra coaches added for some reason. Which I guess makes the Class 90 hauled sleeper towards the end the Aberdeen one.
 
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MichaelAMW said:
According to my timetable archive, in summer 1991 there was an independent train to FW, although it did run via Edinburgh and so could have dropped off something there. An alternative, although I would have expected more sleeper cars, is the Night Aberdonian on Saturday, as this ran earllier on that day.
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USRailFan said:
Fort William sleeper in June 1991 - looks like 2 Motorail GUVs, 3 SLE/SLEP and 2 Mk2s, suggesting the "mystery" sleeper in the OP youtube may well be the Fort Bill sleeper with extra coaches added for some reason. Which I guess makes the Class 90 hauled sleeper towards the end the Aberdeen one.
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Running via Edinburgh and detaching the 'extra' coaches there makes sense for two reasons:
The reduced formation (as per this FW video) would then be within the ETH capability of a class 37/4 which the longer formation would not.
Reversal in Edinburgh puts the Motorail vans on the rear of the train northbound (the FW video show the southbound train with them on the front) providing the capability for a reasonably prompt shunt to the unloading ramps after arrival in FW.
 
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USRailFan said:
The sleeper seen towards the end just runs past the station, but the first sleeper (the one we're discussing) makes a stop - does the timetable say anything about whether the Ft Bill or the Aberdeen trains actually stopped at Watford?
I think there might also have been a separate Euston - Carlisle sleeper at this point?

Fort William sleeper in June 1991 - looks like 2 Motorail GUVs, 3 SLE/SLEP and 2 Mk2s, suggesting the "mystery" sleeper in the OP youtube may well be the Fort Bill sleeper with extra coaches added for some reason. Which I guess makes the Class 90 hauled sleeper towards the end the Aberdeen one.
Click to expand...
Yes, yes and yes to your three questions.
 
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Cheshire Scot said:
Running via Edinburgh and detaching the 'extra' coaches there makes sense for two reasons:
The reduced formation (as per this FW video) would then be within the ETH capability of a class 37/4 which the longer formation would not.
Reversal in Edinburgh puts the Motorail vans on the rear of the train northbound (the FW video show the southbound train with them on the front) providing the capability for a reasonably prompt shunt to the unloading ramps after arrival in FW.
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Wouldn't the Ft Bill change direction at Inverness as well?

MichaelAMW said:
Yes, yes and yes to your three questions.
Click to expand...
Guess we can pretty strongly conclude that the "mystery" sleeper is indeed the Fort William one then
 
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delt1c

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USRailFan said:
Wouldn't the Ft Bill change direction at Inverness as well?


Guess we can pretty strongly conclude that the "mystery" sleeper is indeed the Fort William one then
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Why would the Fort William Sleeper go to Inverness. The proposed link was never built
 
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USRailFan said:
Somehow in my head I always place Fort William on the Far North line...
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Incidentally, it may be useful for you to know any train which did come from the south - Euston, Glasgow, Edinburgh etc., (or indeed Aberdeen in the east), and proceeding to the Far North Line would not reverse formation in Inverness either as Inverness station is V shaped with platforms for trains to/from the south and east on the right leg of the V, and for the North on the left leg of the V, with a through line without platforms (Rose Street Curve) running across the top of the V enabling through running of e.g. freight trains.

A 'through' train calling at Inverness station would either run into the south platforms then reverse out to continue northwards round Rose St Curve, or (more typically) run past and reverse into the North platforms then depart northwards in the normal manner.

In the now dimming past there was a Saturday night Newspaper train from Euston to Lairg (on the far North Line) which did such a manoeuvre - although there was typically just one van working through from Euston to Lairg, plus vans from both Manchester and Glasgow, and at Inverness it also attached passenger coaches. In the same era some passenger trains did regularly take the Rose St curve, those from the south reversing into the north platforms and those from the north reversing into the south platforms which facilitated cross platform connections and quick release of the loco(s).
 
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It is sort of similar to Kristiansand on the Norwegian Southern Trunk line then, although there all passenger trains have to change direction, only freight trains run through on the tangent track
 
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USRailFan said:
It is sort of similar to Kristiansand on the Norwegian Southern Trunk line then, although there all passenger trains have to change direction, only freight trains run through on the tangent track
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No, Kristiansand is a conventional terminus, Inverness is in two separate halves, and it isn't possible for a train to reverse in the station between the South and North lines (there is a siding connection IIRC, but that would be limited to 2 coaches or so).
 
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USRailFan said:
It is sort of similar to Kristiansand on the Norwegian Southern Trunk line then, although there all passenger trains have to change direction, only freight trains run through on the tangent track
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This image from https://www.openrailwaymap.org/ might help
1675446772376.png

The emergency connection to Platform 5 can be seen, and I think it's longer than 2 vehicles but it's only really used for turning locos in the event of failures (The far north line requires an RETB set in the driver's cab) or if a railtour comes up although turning for any purpose is extremely rare.
 
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