Weird ticket checks on platform by Great Northern staff

[nobodyknowsme]

Was at Welwyn North on May 1st, around 9am. There are no gates at the station at all and the only ticket machines (and manned office) are on the platform going to London, which is opposite the largest car park and only accessible via bridge. As soon as I stepped out of the car park and onto the Cambridge platform to cross the bridge, a uniformed Great Northern employee (one of four at the station, quite unusual) asked 'Can I see your ticket?' I explained I always buy them at the machine (of course??) and she watched me cross over and get one.

I've never had this happen outside of an actual train before, but it's additionally bizarre to do it at the open gate connecting the car park to the open platform, before any passenger could possibly have had the chance to buy a paper ticket... just feels like you're criminalising people who are legally doing nothing wrong. I've had my parents see me off from that platform all the time, there's no written rule that you need a ticket to be there.

They did it again on the train, same format as the routine ticket checks they now do intermittently on that route, so I wonder what all the fuss was for. Was there supposed to be a big bust/audit last week? Are staff actually allowed to do this?

 

[Lemmy99uk]

Exactly how is asking for a ticket ‘criminalising’ someone?

 

[jon0844]

There are likely to be many more blocks like this as the DfT wants to reduce fare evasion that has crept up considerably over the years.

Welwyn North is also likely a good place to block as it helps staff at WGC deal with people who arrive from further north with an e-ticket from Welwyn North. If the ticket wasn't activated by the check, it can become a simple report for prosecution.

Other popular short faring locations will likely be done too.

 

[Watershed]

There are likely to be many more blocks like this as the DfT wants to reduce fare evasion that has crept up considerably over the years.

Welwyn North is also likely a good place to block as it helps staff at WGC deal with people who arrive from further north with an e-ticket from Welwyn North. If the ticket wasn't activated by the check, it can become a simple report for prosecution.

Other popular short faring locations will likely be done too.

That's all well and good... but what is the point of a check done before the first opportunity to buy a ticket? You can't possibly "catch" anyone departing the station. At best you can nab a few arriving passengers.

As for people with seemingly "short" tickets, they could be using split tickets. There is no obligation to hold onto previous tickets once you've passed the station where they expire, so the mere fact that an eTicket isn't scanned isn't really proof of anything.

Frankly I'd far rather GTR focus their efforts on undertaking onboard checks, especially on Thameslink services. The number of beggars and other ne'er-do-wells in the Core and as far as East Croydon has to be seen to be believed. I've never once seen a check in hundreds of journeys.

 

[jon0844]

They would need to let you pass to buy a ticket, or they would need to sell one to you themselves. It seems that this is what happened (letting the OP pass).

All checks are increasing so there's a chance of onboard checks too, but short faring is out of control right now.

There are other ways to deal with beggars and homeless people, using BTP and REOs. The industry needs to properly fund this as there's also the increasing issue of vandalism too. Not tackling this may contribute to a fall in passenger usage at certain times and locations, but that's for other threads.

 

[yorkie]

Welwyn North is also likely a good place to block as it helps staff at WGC deal with people who arrive from further north with an e-ticket from Welwyn North. If the ticket wasn't activated by the check, it can become a simple report for prosecution.

e-tickets are not "activated" as such; yes, by all means people could be challenged if there is no scan to seek some more information about their journey, but a lack of scan without any additional evidence wouldn't be sufficient.

I've never had this happen outside of an actual train before, but it's additionally bizarre to do it at the open gate connecting the car park to the open platform, before any passenger could possibly have had the chance to buy a paper ticket... just feels like you're criminalising people who are legally doing nothing wrong. I've had my parents see me off from that platform all the time, there's no written rule that you need a ticket to be there.

Indeed, you do not need a ticket to be there, and you are entitled to cross to the machine.

Sadly some ticket inspectors don't really understand how to interact with people, and their job isn't to make customers feel welcome, so I am not surprised; however, ultimately they did allow you to enter the station and buy your ticket, so there aren't grounds for complaint, as such.

This just has to be filed in the category of train company not wanting customers to feel welcome and some staff members not really being of quite the sort of standard that may work for the sort of organisations perhaps we have worked for, but that's not to be unexpected in this sort of role.

If you think your experience was bad, be glad you're not in Ireland:

Could the UK be like the Republic of Ireland in terms of banning access to stations without a ticket?

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/poor-treatment-of-customers-by-the-railway-industry.282722/ Is it a minute, or two? What about three? Or should it be a bit longer if there's a tunnel with no phone signal upon departure from the station? Much easier and...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[thejuggler]

I've had exactly the same at a Northern station. Walking across the car park I was asked for my my ticket. I was nowhere near the ticket machine so had had no opportunity to buy one.

 

[jon0844]

e-tickets are not "activated" as such; yes, by all means people could be challenged if there is no scan to seek some more information about their journey, but a lack of scan without any additional evidence wouldn't be sufficient.

This is why the blocks are needed. People don't need to scan (activate was a poor choice of wording above by me), but by having staff who will do so it becomes easy to pick up on those who arrive one station further along and just say they boarded the station before (Welwyn North having no means to scan an e-ticket).

The same would apply at many other stations that are ungated. At least gated stations can force people to tap in/out - although staff need to ensure the gates are kept closed throughout.

 

[rmHawk765]

Frankly I'd far rather GTR focus their efforts on undertaking onboard checks, especially on Thameslink services. The number of beggars and other ne'er-do-wells in the Core and as far as East Croydon has to be seen to be believed. I've never once seen a check in hundreds of journeys.

I fully agree with this. I don't remember the last time I travelled on a GTR service that at some point had a ticket inspector. It did use to actually happen fairly often on the 717s on Monday specifically, but it seems they've completely abandoned it now.

 

[saismee]

I fully agree with this. I don't remember the last time I travelled on a GTR service that at some point had a ticket inspector. It did use to actually happen fairly often on the 717s on Monday specifically, but it seems they've completely abandoned it now.

I've never been on a 387 from Cambridge or Ely to King's Lynn without having my ticket checked. Seems an odd route to have frequent checks too.

 

[Michaeltarquin]

Elsewhere on GTR at Horsham station in the past couple of weeks, they have had multiple staff (Ontrak Revenue Support) positioned on the gateline at the back entrance. This is for the first time in years and for the majority of the day as well.

The gateline (like many unstaffed gatelines) has become increasingly circumnavigated over the years. I’m not sure if this is also happening at stations elsewhere on the GTR network. But this does support what has been said above about revenue protection crackdowns on the GTR network and elsewhere on the rail network (albeit on stations rather than on trains).

 

[Chriso]

I have seen the revenue protection support officers at Brighton and East Croydon too.

One place that really needs some staff is the platform 1 bridge entrance/exit at West Hampstead Thameslink . The gateline is always unstaffed and the amount of people barging the wide gate is incredible of an evening.

 

[Failed Unit]

Is the footbridge over the line at Welwyn North a public right of way? Granted you can get from the local shops near the station to the houses via other walking routes, but is this why it isn’t gated? (I must admit I would annoyed if I needed to walk from the West Car park the long way around to get to platform 1)

The whole thing of scanning / tapping tickets has a few interesting behaviours

At Welwyn Garden City people with paper tickets still put them through when the gates are open, I have said you don’t need to when the ticket gets rejected, but they are nervous they will get a fine.
When they are open, you don’t get the re-assurance the gate has open hence your ticket is read. I have had to correct a few “not scanned” as a result.
The e-tickets do seem to cause particular fun with not getting read so the staff need to read them. Interesting I have seen tfl staff at old street read them. I would never buy one if I was using old street or Moorgate.

 

[74A]

They do this so if they find someone on the train with an e ticket that has not been scanned they can investigate.

If you had an e ticket you would have shown it and it would have been scanned.

 

[Lockwood]

I'm guessing that them watching you go and buy a ticket is because you are by the railway and could not produce a ticket on request, proving that you "pay his fare from the place whence he started"

Which I guess raises the question of someone saying "I'm waiting for someone who is on the such and such train". You have failed to produce a ticket on request, you cannot pay a fare as there is no journey to be made - platform ticket, I suppose - which just leaves providing details?

Of course, this is taken from the perspective of having a member of staff who is having a very bad day and being very strict.

 

[milooo]

Then ig when the ticket office is closed i

I'm guessing that them watching you go and buy a ticket is because you are by the railway and could not produce a ticket on request, proving that you "pay his fare from the place whence he started"

Which I guess raises the question of someone saying "I'm waiting for someone who is on the such and such train". You have failed to produce a ticket on request, you cannot pay a fare as there is no journey to be made - platform ticket, I suppose - which just leaves providing details?

Of course, this is taken from the perspective of having a member of staff who is having a very bad day and being very strict.

Well that may be fair but what will happen if let's say the ticket office is closed? And the footbridge is often used by people to get from on side of the railway to the other like a public footbridge..

 

[Adam Williams]

They do this so if they find someone on the train with an e ticket that has not been scanned they can investigate.

If you had an e ticket you would have shown it and it would have been scanned.

Frontline staff should not be making inferences from the absence of scan records from the same day of travel.

I'd be very interested to hear if this was part of any RPI training

 

[AlterEgo]

Frontline staff should not be making inferences from the absence of scan records from the same day of travel.

I'd be very interested to hear if this was part of any RPI training

They can ask passengers if they boarded at that station and ask why their ticket wasn’t scanned there. The blockades are there really as proof of boarding. They can’t infer anything from the absence of scan records alone, and a response of “no comment” would be fine. They just let people talk themselves into trouble.

 

[yorkie]

The absence of a scan record doesn't definitively mean it wasn't scanned.

In any case many staff don't consistently scan.

I suspect some staff wouldn't accept "no comment".

Sometimes a station manager will tell staff at another station their staff member did not say/do something they did say/do (I experienced this recently)

One should always keep an open mind.

Customers should be given the benefit of any doubt

 

[Watershed]

I'm guessing that them watching you go and buy a ticket is because you are by the railway and could not produce a ticket on request, proving that you "pay his fare from the place whence he started"

Which I guess raises the question of someone saying "I'm waiting for someone who is on the such and such train". You have failed to produce a ticket on request, you cannot pay a fare as there is no journey to be made - platform ticket, I suppose - which just leaves providing details?

Of course, this is taken from the perspective of having a member of staff who is having a very bad day and being very strict.

I think you are referring to section 5 of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889. But this only applies to passengers - and mere presence on a platform does not make you a passenger.

 

[Lockwood]

Yes, but if they are doing a check on potential passengers and in a particularly funny mood, would they be able to try arguing this?
It may not be a successful argument, but could someone doing these checks progress things to the point where the non-passenger is going to get a formal "please explain" letter?

 

[Watershed]

Yes, but if they are doing a check on potential passengers and in a particularly funny mood, would they be able to try arguing this?
It may not be a successful argument, but could someone doing these checks progress things to the point where the non-passenger is going to get a formal "please explain" letter?

If I were not a passenger I wouldn't be cooperating with the staff. They would have no lawful basis to take any action beyond asking you to leave the premises.

 

[urbophile]

What's to stop them installing a ticket machine on the platform nearest the car park?

 

[OscarH]

The absence of a scan record doesn't definitively mean it wasn't scanned.

In any case many staff don't consistently scan.

I suspect some staff wouldn't accept "no comment".

Sometimes a station manager will tell staff at another station their staff member did not say/do something they did say/do (I experienced this recently)

One should always keep an open mind.

Customers should be given the benefit of any doubt

Also, even if they do scan, some of the most popular eTVDs/scanning apps are garbage, and scans don't actually make it through

 

[yorkie]

What's to stop them installing a ticket machine on the platform nearest the car park?

Probably cost.

Ticket machines reached their peak years ago and are now declining in numbers; the vast majority of passengers (who aren't already Season ticket holders) book online or use PAYG.

 

[station_road]

Then ig when the ticket office is closed i


Well that may be fair but what will happen if let's say the ticket office is closed? And the footbridge is often used by people to get from on side of the railway to the other like a public footbridge..

It may be used as a public footbridge, but it isn't shown as a public right of way on the Hertfordshire County Council "Rights of Way - Definitive Map"

https://www.hertfordshire.gov.uk/se...current-rights-of-way/the-definitive-map.aspx

 

[Aaron1]

I haven't noticed this recently but only a few years ago at weekends Grimsby Town station which has no ticket barriers and the only ticket machines on the platform used to have 3 revenue protection officers standing on the entrance, asking for tickets, one of them used to be very polite and corteous, another one was very young and didn't seem to know the job or regulations and the other was always very pompous and self righteous and he used to snap at people for not having a ticket to show him if they only wanted to speak to ticket office staff about something or use the ticket machine on the platform.

Once before when I was collecting tickets I had booked online for the journey I was making, I arrived at station, I explained to the young one who didn't know the job that I am collecting my tickets from the ticket machine for the journey, he went and spoke to the pompous one who told me I should have collected them well before now and said "by rights you shouldn't leave it until the day as you are now entering the station without a valid ticket which isn't allowed" he duly walked me to the ticket machine, stood with me as I collected them and still insisted on checking them.

If you need a valid ticket to enter a station then why have the ticket machines on the platform (ironically they removed one which used to be outside the entrance) and why have a ticket office at all!

Luckily not seen these for a while.

 

[TheTallOne]

I haven't noticed this recently but only a few years ago at weekends Grimsby Town station which has no ticket barriers and the only ticket machines on the platform used to have 3 revenue protection officers standing on the entrance, asking for tickets, one of them used to be very polite and corteous, another one was very young and didn't seem to know the job or regulations and the other was always very pompous and self righteous and he used to snap at people for not having a ticket to show him if they only wanted to speak to ticket office staff about something or use the ticket machine on the platform.

Once before when I was collecting tickets I had booked online for the journey I was making, I arrived at station, I explained to the young one who didn't know the job that I am collecting my tickets from the ticket machine for the journey, he went and spoke to the pompous one who told me I should have collected them well before now and said "by rights you shouldn't leave it until the day as you are now entering the station without a valid ticket which isn't allowed" he duly walked me to the ticket machine, stood with me as I collected them and still insisted on checking them.

If you need a valid ticket to enter a station then why have the ticket machines on the platform (ironically they removed one which used to be outside the entrance) and why have a ticket office at all!

Luckily not seen these for a while.

If you collected them the day before you travelled, you'd still be entering a station without a ticket, just on a different day?!

 

[milooo]

It may be used as a public footbridge, but it isn't shown as a public right of way on the Hertfordshire County Council "Rights of Way - Definitive Map"

https://www.hertfordshire.gov.uk/se...current-rights-of-way/the-definitive-map.aspx

Ah yea

 

[Aaron1]

If you collected them the day before you travelled, you'd still be entering a station without a ticket, just on a different day?!

That's what I said to him but he just responded with something along the lines of "I'm just doing my job"