Weird ticket checks on platform by Great Northern staff

[Recessio]

I feel people may be over thinking this. If there's been a problem at the station with people just waltzing in the second entrance without crossing over to the other side to buy a ticket first, then having a member of staff there asking to show your ticket could just be a way to ensure people do actually go over and buy one, rather than just slip in?

"May I see your ticket please?"
"I just need to pop over and get one from the machine" is a perfectly reasonable conversation in my opinion?

If the staff asked "Hey, are you going to go over and buy a ticket?" and it turned out the customer already had purchased a ticket digitally or had a season ticket, then their question sounds accusatory/incriminatory and could lead to escalation.

I think the check sounds perfectly reasonable to me in these circumstances.

 

[Sonic1234]

That's what I said to him but he just responded with something along the lines of "I'm just doing my job"

Good to see customer service standards are high.

There's an attitude that's come about in the past few years that you're only on the trains because you have to be, or because the alternatives are even worse. Bus companies were always like this.

 

[yorkie]

That's what I said to him but he just responded with something along the lines of "I'm just doing my job"

See my post above; any customer facing role involves communication as a part of the role, but not everyone sees it as important.

Tone of voice, body language as well as

People like that wouldn't get a job in a customer facing role in many other sectors, as many other sectors typically place a higher priority on communication skills.

Some people seem to think that speaking to people in a way that is robotic or makes a customer feel unwelcome is doing a good job. As they are the world differently to many other people, they are never going to change their minds.

It's absolutely possible to do revenue checks in a way that is appropriate, effective, and assertive but without being overbearing.

...There's an attitude that's come about in the past few years that you're only on the trains because you have to be, or because the alternatives are even worse...

Absolutely, I have experienced this on too many occasions. Unfortunately, those occasions tend to stick in the memory much more than when things go smoothly. It is an area in which the industry really should try harder, in my opinion.

However, as it's such a deep-rooted cultural issue, there are numerous people who disagree. As someone who wants to see the rail industry serve passengers well, I find that disappointing, but we just have to accept it, as we are never going to change the minds of these people.

 

[John R]

The absence of a scan record doesn't definitively mean it wasn't scanned.

In any case many staff don't consistently scan.

I presume the whole point of the exercise at Welwyn North was a revenue block, especially as there were four of them, in which case I would be highly surprised if staff did not scan every ticket presented to them. If they didn’t it would defeat the whole exercise.

And it seems as though the conversation was perfectly civil, and they were immediately let through. Remember, the object of such a block is not to catch out people boarding at Welwyn North, but those travelling from further afield buying an online ticket from there as a short ticket.

 

[yorkie]

I presume the whole point of the exercise at Welwyn North was a revenue block, especially as there were four of them, in which case I would be highly surprised if staff did not scan every ticket presented to them. If they didn’t it would defeat the whole exercise.

And it seems as though the conversation was perfectly civil, and they were immediately let through. Remember, the object of such a block is not to catch out people boarding at Welwyn North, but those travelling from further afield buying an online ticket from there as a short ticket.

Yes, but - depending on the systems used and various other factors - a ticket that has been scanned may not necessarily show up as being scanned.

So the lack of a scan record doesn't conclusively mean the ticket wasn't scanned.

Even if you could definitively conclude if the ticket was or wasn't scanned, the lack of scan doesn't necessarily mean the ticket isn't valid, as it depends on the actual journey being made (and, if applicable, any other tickets being held).

The short answer with any of this is "it depends" and without full knowledge of all the variables at play, you can't reach a conclusion.

A concern is that some staff appear to reach conclusions without being aware of the potential pitfalls.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

What's the situation at Rochdale station, where the ticket office appears to be up at platform level. Aren't there barriers that first have to be negotiated at street level before you can get up there?

 

[John R]

Yes, but - depending on the systems used and various other factors - a ticket that has been scanned may not necessarily show up as being scanned.

So the lack of a scan record doesn't conclusively mean the ticket wasn't scanned.

Even if you could definitively conclude if the ticket was or wasn't scanned, the lack of scan doesn't necessarily mean the ticket isn't valid, as it depends on the actual journey being made (and, if applicable, any other tickets being held).

The short answer with any of this is "it depends" and without full knowledge of all the variables at play, you can't reach a conclusion.

A concern is that some staff appear to reach conclusions without being aware of the potential pitfalls.

Station blocks are however how rail companies seek to combat short faring from known hotspots, of which I presume Welwyn North is one.

If someone turns up at WGC with an unscanned e-ticket from Welwyn North, when GTR knows it has scanned every ticket for people boarding there, they need to have a very good reason why it wasn’t scanned. The only one I can think of is if they have another paper ticket from further north which they conveniently have discarded in the three minutes between the two Welwyn stations. I’m sure if they suggest that’s the case CCTV at their boarding station will quickly be available to confirm or otherwise purchase of said ticket from the ticket office or machine and GTR would do so to provide firm evidence to submit to court if necessary.

 

[Sonic1234]

The only one I can think of is if they have another paper ticket from further north which they conveniently have discarded in the three minutes between the two Welwyn stations. I’m sure if they suggest that’s the case CCTV at their boarding station will quickly be available to confirm or otherwise purchase of said ticket from the ticket office or machine and GTR would do so to provide firm evidence to submit to court if necessary.

Or more likely there is no investigation, GTR demands a couple of hundred pounds in settlement from the accused which most will pay up to have an easy life. The odd one who claims to have a legitimate reason and is determined to fight it ends up with the case dropped, or maybe not because the administrative machine is now in process.

There won't be any checking of CCTV. This is rail company administrators running an investigation, not MI5.

 

[John R]

Or more likely there is no investigation, GTR demands a couple of hundred pounds in settlement from the accused which most will pay up to have an easy life. The odd one who claims to have a legitimate reason and is determined to fight it ends up with the case dropped, or maybe not because the administrative machine is now in process.

There won't be any checking of CCTV. This is rail company administrators running an investigation, not MI5.

I disagree. They will be asked at the gateline at WGC why their ticket hasn’t been scanned. In the vanishingly unlikely event that they say that they bought another ticket to Welwyn North and disposed of it (and they actually did) that would need to be on a witness statement that GTR put to court. So GTR would have to have firm evidence to contradict it else they would lose. And the only way they could do that is by capturing the CCTV.

But of course that won’t happen because as we see from numerous cases here, when it is put to people that it was impossible for them to have boarded without a scan, they eventually own up to short faring.

In my view it’s a highly effective way of catching fare dodgers, and so long as people are asked politely at the block station to produce their ticket or go and buy one (which seems to be the case here) I fully support it.

 

[Failed Unit]

i wonder why they don’t go back to the old fashioned way of giving people a piece of card.

welwyn north would be an odd station to split at ( but considering some the stations I have split at not impossible). if you were going to one of the unmanned stations you would probably change at Hatfield for the same platform Interchange rather then Welwyn Garden City. I personally do the short ticket a lot as my season is valid from Welwyn Garden City, so at times i get dropped off there. My e-ticket for the short hop is rarely scanned.

sometimes at Kings Cross staff have told me to get the 1724 (when the 1727) is cancelled and double back.i would hope in that situation the person on the platform would be advised people were advised to do this.that is a different thread.

 

[John R]

i wonder why they don’t go back to the old fashioned way of giving people a piece of card.

welwyn north would be an odd station to split at ( but considering some the stations I have split at not impossible). if you were going to one of the unmanned stations you would probably change at Hatfield for the same platform Interchange rather then Welwyn Garden City. I personally do the short ticket a lot as my season is valid from Welwyn Garden City, so at times i get dropped off there. My e-ticket for the short hop is rarely scanned.

Though the point is that on a day that GTR does a revenue block to catch those short ticketing to WGC it would be scanned. ( Along with the barriers at WGC being programmed to reject any e tickets from Welwyn North. )

 

[Failed Unit]

Though the point is that on a day that GTR does a revenue block to catch those short ticketing to WGC it would be scanned. ( Along with the barriers at WGC being programmed to reject any e tickets from Welwyn North. )

From experience WGC already rejects any kind of ticket with a discount (child or railcard) and carnets. they will also some days cover the readers and force all e-tickets to manually scan. Real pain at rush hour. today they wouldn’t operate the lift until they had scanned all tickets of the people about to use it.

revenue seems very active on the 717 operated services recently.

 

[800001]

What's the situation at Rochdale station, where the ticket office appears to be up at platform level. Aren't there barriers that first have to be negotiated at street level before you can get up there?

Yes a strange set up, I’ve used it twice and needed to purchase my ticket from ticket office on both occasions, just said to barrier staff I need to use ticket office and they let me through no issue.

 

[DelW]

Once before when I was collecting tickets I had booked online for the journey I was making, I arrived at station, I explained to the young one who didn't know the job that I am collecting my tickets from the ticket machine for the journey, he went and spoke to the pompous one who told me I should have collected them well before now and said "by rights you shouldn't leave it until the day as you are now entering the station without a valid ticket which isn't allowed" he duly walked me to the ticket machine, stood with me as I collected them and still insisted on checking them.

A bizarre assertion, considering such tickets are routinely described as ToD standing for "ticket on departure".

 

[saismee]

A bizarre assertion, considering such tickets are routinely described as ToD standing for "ticket on departure".

While he is correct in suggesting that you should collect them earlier (I wouldn't say a day in advance, just an hour or so), if they had collected their ticket a day in advance, they'd still need to enter the station without a ticket! The RPI's sentence doesn't make any sense in any context

 

[Watershed]

While he is correct in suggesting that you should collect them earlier (I wouldn't say a day in advance, just an hour or so), if they had collected their ticket a day in advance, they'd still need to enter the station without a ticket! The RPI's sentence doesn't make any sense in any context

Do you regularly turn up to the station an hour before your train?

Thought not...

 

[saismee]

Do you regularly turn up to the station an hour before your train?

Thought not...

No, not when I use E-Tickets or Season Passes. I do turn up an hour in advance when collecting tickets though, as I can then double check that everything is sound (if the machine decides to not print half of them, I have time to visit the ticket office), then get food to eat on the train.

So yes.

 

[Watershed]

No, not when I use E-Tickets or Season Passes. I do turn up an hour in advance when collecting tickets though, as I can then double check that everything is sound (if the machine decides to not print half of them, I have time to visit the ticket office), then get food to eat on the train.

So yes.

You must be in a tiny minority there. Most stations don't even have facilities to buy food.

The point being, it is not at all reasonable to expect people to arrive an hour before departure. It's a train, not a plane.

 

[saismee]

You must be in a tiny minority there. Most stations don't even have facilities to buy food.

The point being, it is not at all reasonable to expect people to arrive an hour before departure. It's a train, not a plane.

Certainly not reasonable for everyone, but generally a reasonable thing to suggest. The way the RPI suggested it was just... wrong... though.
As you said, not all stations have the facilities to buy food, but I didn't buy food in the station. That's why I did it an hour in advance; I could walk 20 minutes to find somewhere to grab food. It also gave me plenty of time to check that all the tickets (must have been around 20 with two people and splits!!) made sense with the given itinerary.

Realistically, 5-10 minutes is a better time to arrive before your train especially when collecting tickets as random queues can certainly ruin your day!

 

[jon0844]

You can surely turn up whenever you want to collect tickets, but accept there might be a risk if you leave it too late - in that you may not have much time (if any) to correct issues. It's not up to staff to determine when that time will be. You might pick up tickets weeks in advance if you don't travel often, and likewise if you don't travel often then you may not be anywhere near a station until the day of travel.

 

[sheff1]

I've had exactly the same at a Northern station. Walking across the car park I was asked for my my ticket. I was nowhere near the ticket machine so had had no opportunity to buy one.

At Meadowhall there were staff asking for tickets outside the station. As the station bridge is the through route from the nearby housing estate to the shopping centre many people were not going to be using the train. Even if they were, the first TVM and the booking office are after the check.

What's the situation at Rochdale station, where the ticket office appears to be up at platform level. Aren't there barriers that first have to be negotiated at street level before you can get up there?

Indeed. Same at Blackburn. Seems a ricdiculous layout.

 

[Kite159]

..

Indeed. Same at Blackburn. Seems a ricdiculous layout

Especially as it's open to abuse (at least for outward journeys). Someone can claim they need to buy their ticket from the office to bypass the barriers and simply jump onto the train, especially if it's a pair of 195s or a pair of sprinters involving a 150/1 with that person aiming for the front unit.

 

[father_jack]

You can surely turn up whenever you want to collect tickets, but accept there might be a risk if you leave it too late - in that you may not have much time (if any) to correct issues. It's not up to staff to determine when that time will be. You might pick up tickets weeks in advance if you don't travel often, and likewise if you don't travel often then you may not be anywhere near a station until the day of travel.

The TVM being faulty is a red herring now because so few take cash and because so few people use them so the rolls can't run out !!!

I'm in the industry and I actively DETER people from collecting earlier. I usually say the process is called "TOD Ticket On Departure" meaning you collect on departure.

So after years of experience if they get-
washed
lost
forgotten where you put them
pussycat or fido eat them-
you've done your money.

But also the serious one- if they're not collected it's way easier to get a refund.

 

[Lockwood]

I tend to get ToD the day before - the supermarket and the station are close enough it is not a huge pain.
If the machine is not working, I can try again the next day.
If I'm running behind, I don't have to stress about how long the collection process may take (or queues)

I guess the thing there is just flexibility

 

[Starmill]

That's what I said to him but he just responded with something along the lines of "I'm just doing my job"

It's so frustrating that public money is being wasted on this approach to revenue protection which doesn't serve anyone, and gives a very poor impression of the railway industry.

"Can I see your ticket please?"
"No."
"Why not?"
"Because I don't have one."
"You must buy a ticket travel on a train."
"Precisely. I don't need one."

And so on...

Certainly not reasonable for everyone, but generally a reasonable thing to suggest.

It's not a reasonable thing to suggest in the first. Are you seriously suggesting people show up an hour in advance at stations like Brockenhurst, and thereby watch several long-haul trains before the one they intended to catch departing while they sit on the platform with nothing to do?

Even for those who need extra time to get about there aren't any stations in the country where 20-30 minutes is insufficient to go from the entrance and ticket office / machine to the platform. Your advice is entirely divorced from reality I'm afraid. The only exception is Eurostar who have three extra checks before departures.

 

[saismee]

If they get-
washed
lost
forgotten where you put them
pussycat or fido eat them-
you've done your money.

Definitely a risk and that's why I personally opt to collect them an hour before getting the train and then spend the rest of the time getting food. I guess my case is slightly different as I would travel from A (unstaffed) to B (staffed + ticket office) on a single, then get food, then B to C, and so on. I only use ToD tickets for long distance cross-London journeys, as I prefer it over contactless.

In any case, the RPI was wrong in saying that the passenger is supposed collect their tickets the day before, it's entirely up to them.

It's not a reasonable thing to suggest in the first. Are you seriously suggesting people show up an hour in advance at stations like Brockenhurst, and thereby watch several long-haul trains before the one they intended to catch departing while they sit on the platform with nothing to do?

Even for those who need extra time to get about there aren't any stations in the country where 20-30 minutes is insufficient to go from the entrance and ticket office / machine to the platform. Your advice is entirely divorced from reality I'm afraid. The only exception is Eurostar who have three extra checks before departures.

I'm not saying its reasonable in every scenario, but the person whose post I was replying to said that they were travelling from Grimsby Town. I'm sure there's something that they could do in the hour between collecting their tickets and travelling.

 

[Starmill]

I'm sure there's something that they could do in the hour between collecting their tickets and travelling.

Like what? Sounds like you've never been to Grimsby Town to me.

 

[Lockwood]

I don't understand the RailUK obsession with getting to stations unreasonably early.

 

[TheTallOne]

I like to collect the day before, especially for long journeys / multi day trips, just in case there's any issues.

But agree with the comments you shouldn't need to do that. You should be able to collect them five minutes before travelling if you want to.

I guess if there was a problem at short notice you could always buy new tickets and then try to sort it out later. E.g. get a refund for the more expensive ticket you had to buy to replace the ones that failed to print at a machine.

 

[John R]

I like to collect the day before, especially for long journeys / multi day trips, just in case there's any issues.

But agree with the comments you shouldn't need to do that. You should be able to collect them five minutes before travelling if you want to.

I guess if there was a problem at short notice you could always buy new tickets and then try to sort it out later. E.g. get a refund for the more expensive ticket you had to buy to replace the ones that failed to print at a machine.

I wouldn’t leave it as late as five minutes if collecting from a TVM. You only need one person in front who is unfamiliar with the machine and how to get the ticket they want to leave you with insufficient time.