Welsh automated announcements

[Greenback]

I just think that in Wales, Welsh should be first, and in England there is a strong case for the Welsh version to be played after the English version. I am not overly concerned about it, though, as long as Welsh is used!

Strangely enough, I don't speak more than a few words of Welsh, perhaps it's guilt that makes me want to see the language survive and thrive!

 

[Leslie Fletcher]

Ben Davies of ATW told us at a SCRUA meeting on Monday, ATW have been in consultation with the Welsh Language Board, in reference to Bi Ling announcements as to areas Welsh or English should come first, the findings he told us are being put into place, so as a Welsh speaker in Wrexham I hope common sense prevails and Station announcements at Wrexham are in English first which is this Border Counties prevailing language. Sorry Greenback

At the risk of repeating myself, not only are there no Welsh announcements at Dolwyddelan (and I guess at most (all?) other stations in Anglesey/Mon, Conwy and Gwynedd) to come first or second but the English ones are worse than useless because the technology used is inappropriate, paying no attention to Welsh pronunciation or orthography nor to the circumstances at individual stations.
Like Greenback, I am not a Welsh speaker but, unlike ATW, I do take care to pronounce the place names correctly - and I join in the Welsh parts of the bilingual services at Dolwyddelan church.
More generally, ATW's automated announcements seem to me to be shoddily put together. On North Wales trains these include the phraseology "We will be calling at the following principal stations ... " As this is spoken by a machine, who is the "we"? As all stops are included in these announcements, do non-principal stations exist(*)? Where is the oft-mentioned DeganWAY? Why the peculiar intonation in these announcements - e.g. Llandidner - and the rising inflection in many of them?
(*) For those few in the know about such things, this is indeed an intentional mathematical pun.

 

[Greenback]

I rmember an online Q&A session with a former MD of ATW, who seemed very surprised to receive complaints about the pronunciation of Welsh place names. IIRC, he claimed that the recordings were made by two members of staff who were fluent Welsh speakers, and had been raised to use Welsh as their first language.

At the tiem I was a little incredulous at this, as the female voice used in Swansea did, and still does, pronounce all sorts of places incorrectly. In contrast, the male voice used on recordings at Llanelli does sound like a native Welsh speaker and I can't fault his pronunciation at all.

I think there may be a problem with the systems that were used by the previous companies before the All Wales franchise was created. Swansea was run by FGW, whioch might account for the different voice used on announcements there.

 

[Leslie Fletcher]

I am pretty sure there is no human involvement in the announcements at Dolwyddelan.

 

[Greenback]

They are recordings in Swansea and Llanelli, played by a machine. But it's still the recording of a human voice!

 

[merlodlliw]

Neither of the two versions played at Wrexham General, have the magic word London, just Euston & Marylebone as though they are towns.

As for the mutations of the welsh Language that's another story,along with the area dialects.

 

[mickey]

I just think that in Wales, Welsh should be first, and in England there is a strong case for the Welsh version to be played after the English version. I am not overly concerned about it, though, as long as Welsh is used!

As is the almost universal practice across the world. Eurostar, for example, makes pains to ensure that they always use the main language of the country they're in at the exact time they make an announcement. I've even noticed on occasion some staff using French first when in Wallonia, then Flemish, then English. I see no reason the same can't apply in Wales.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

do non-principal stations exist?

I often used to wonder about this, and eventually came to the conclusion that it was an attempt to distinguish an inter-city service from a local one. I've seen it most on Voyagers (VXC, as was), which liked very much to consider itself an 'express' service stopping only at main places. I know it didn't work like that in practice but I do think this is what they meant.

 

[tbtc]

They are recordings in Swansea and Llanelli, played by a machine. But it's still the recording of a human voice!

...which is the case at a lot of stations in the UK

 

[Greenback]

Indeed, I was answering Leslie's comment about there being no human involvement!

 

[manaichain]

I think the Dolwyddelan resident means that it's not recordings, it's a computer program reading a typed script. I have a similar thing on my phone. It reads it with computer logic. For example one of my sisters is called Naomi, said nay-oh-mee but if I typed it in (i think it's voice dialling) it says na-om-eye. The computer thus doesn't realise about placenames. For example I got my hands on one, used for something else, and Carlisle and Leicester come out something along lines of car-liz-lee and licky-star.

Even if it sounded really disjointed it'd be better than nothing. I always used to trust how the railways pronounced things as gospel. Until I got in trouble a few times. And they started calling the station I grew up next to Did-cut (rhyme with put) instead of Didcot (rhyme with pot). It does irritate locals when some far off company can't be asked to pronounce your town right
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
And personally I think in conwy gwynedd anglesey ceredigion pembroke carmarthen and all the bits that came from the Glamorgans should be Welsh first, with a review for Monmouth, Newport, Powys, Flint, Denbigh and Wrexham, for the northern counties, the rail line follows the coast along the "resorts" populated with retired Liverpudlians. For English stations served predominantly by Arriva Trains Wales, I can't see why they can't have Welsh second. It is the Welsh railway company so to speak. The timetables are bilingual, and they had French playing at Waterloo International. Thought people?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Examples i'd say that have good cause in England for Welsh would be everything from Chester, down to Shrewsbury, down to Newport, along to Gloucester, as an idea. Could have local petitions for example. Don't wanna irritate local English. But languages never stick to borders, why should Welsh?

 

[merlodlliw]

I think the Dolwyddelan resident means that it's not recordings, it's a computer program reading a typed script. I have a similar thing on my phone. It reads it with computer logic. For example one of my sisters is called Naomi, said nay-oh-mee but if I typed it in (i think it's voice dialling) it says na-om-eye. The computer thus doesn't realise about placenames. For example I got my hands on one, used for something else, and Carlisle and Leicester come out something along lines of car-liz-lee and licky-star.

Even if it sounded really disjointed it'd be better than nothing. I always used to trust how the railways pronounced things as gospel. Until I got in trouble a few times. And they started calling the station I grew up next to Did-cut (rhyme with put) instead of Didcot (rhyme with pot). It does irritate locals when some far off company can't be asked to pronounce your town right
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
And personally I think in conwy gwynedd anglesey ceredigion pembroke carmarthen and all the bits that came from the Glamorgans should be Welsh first, with a review for Monmouth, Newport, Powys, Flint, Denbigh and Wrexham, for the northern counties, the rail line follows the coast along the "resorts" populated with retired Liverpudlians. For English stations served predominantly by Arriva Trains Wales, I can't see why they can't have Welsh second. It is the Welsh railway company so to speak. The timetables are bilingual, and they had French playing at Waterloo International. Thought people?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Examples i'd say that have good cause in England for Welsh would be everything from Chester, down to Shrewsbury, down to Newport, along to Gloucester, as an idea. Could have local petitions for example. Don't wanna irritate local English. But languages never stick to borders, why should Welsh?

Where on earth do you get the idea the North Wales coast resorts are full of retired scousers, there are some of course,but not the majority.

 

[oglord]

I just think that in Wales, Welsh should be first, and in England there is a strong case for the Welsh version to be played after the English version.

That is dogmatic nonsense that takes no account of the practicalities of 100% of people in Newport being able to speak English versus 13% being able to speak Welsh.

 

[Soupdragon]

what also has to be taken into account is the fact that there are regional variations in the spoken Welsh language.

I lived for over 20 years in N Wales and, altho i never took any courses in speaking the Welsh language, I could understand and hold a pretty limited conversation in Welsh (dont ask me to try and write it down tho!!). Conversely, my grandaughters, who go to school in S Wales, look at me strange when i speak North Walian to them.. "you said that all wrong Grandad!!"

 

[The Decapod]

Never mind Welsh announcements, they need to have bilingual announcements in some parts of England - e.g.

The ...xt train....platf.....passeng.....d-d-d.......ing to alight at........should travel in....WOOOOO...[click].....[thump]....carriages.

 

[thefab444]

That is dogmatic nonsense that takes no account of the practicalities of 100% of people in Newport being able to speak English versus 13% being able to speak Welsh.

Fully agree.

 

[Greenback]

I think the Dolwyddelan resident means that it's not recordings, it's a computer program reading a typed script. I have a similar thing on my phone. It reads it with computer logic. For example one of my sisters is called Naomi, said nay-oh-mee but if I typed it in (i think it's voice dialling) it says na-om-eye. The computer thus doesn't realise about placenames. For example I got my hands on one, used for something else, and Carlisle and Leicester come out something along lines of car-liz-lee and licky-star.?

That may be the case, I haven;t been to Dolwyddelan, so it may be a computer voice, that may have been what FNW put in?

And personally I think in conwy gwynedd anglesey ceredigion pembroke carmarthen and all the bits that came from the Glamorgans should be Welsh first, with a review for Monmouth, Newport, Powys, Flint, Denbigh and Wrexham, for the northern counties, the rail line follows the coast along the "resorts" populated with retired Liverpudlians. For English stations served predominantly by Arriva Trains Wales, I can't see why they can't have Welsh second. It is the Welsh railway company so to speak. The timetables are bilingual, and they had French playing at Waterloo International. Thought people?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Examples i'd say that have good cause in England for Welsh would be everything from Chester, down to Shrewsbury, down to Newport, along to Gloucester, as an idea. Could have local petitions for example. Don't wanna irritate local English. But languages never stick to borders, why should Welsh?

I think that would be sensible. I feel that Welsh deserves to be played first in Wales, as Wales has a seperate identity from England, but the importnat thing for me is that Welsh is used, whether it be in timetables, announcements or on posters. The more the language is seen, heard and used the more people will take an interest in it, which is why there are unprecented numbers of children learning in Welsh medium schools, and demand is increasing all the time.

That is dogmatic nonsense that takes no account of the practicalities of 100% of people in Newport being able to speak English versus 13% being able to speak Welsh.

Are you saying that 100% of people in newport can't recognise Caerdydd as Cardiff or Llundain as London? I don't speak Welsh but listening to a few announcements has meant that I udnerstand them! I could say it is in fact dogmatic nonsense to insist English is played first just because everyone speaks it. I could, but I won;t as it doesn't bother me that much. But to take that argument further, Everyone in the Netherlands seems to speak English, why not have all anouncements in English there?

what also has to be taken into account is the fact that there are regional variations in the spoken Welsh language.

I lived for over 20 years in N Wales and, altho i never took any courses in speaking the Welsh language, I could understand and hold a pretty limited conversation in Welsh (dont ask me to try and write it down tho!!). Conversely, my grandaughters, who go to school in S Wales, look at me strange when i speak North Walian to them.. "you said that all wrong Grandad!!"

The language is slightly different in North Wales. it doesn't mean that you can't be understood, it just sounds a little different, as your grand daughter has pointed out!

 

[merlodlliw]

That is dogmatic nonsense that takes no account of the practicalities of 100% of people in Newport being able to speak English versus 13% being able to speak Welsh.

Same in Wrexham.

I was on Wrexham General station last evening picking up a Guest speaker for Minera Quarry Trust, the train was HDD to Shrewsbury, the Welsh version lasted a good 60 seconds to dole out 4 stops plus mind the platform edge etc. It was repeated twice, Out of about 30 people waiting for the train, I was probably the only one who understood it.
The English version (2nd) lasted 30 seconds without repeat.

However this is devolution.it will only get worse.

 

[Greenback]

Some of the announcements are ridiculous whetehr they are in Welsh or English. Mind the platform edge is one, so is the no smoking one that is repeated on Llanelli station every 7-8 minutes.

It really annoys me when my train is delayed and the only announcements you hear constantly being repeated are don't leave your bags unattended and all of our trains and stations are no smoking areas (there's usually no staff about if someone lights up anyway). Rarely a hint of an apology or some useful information about when the train is likely to arrive.

 

[thefab444]

Rarely a hint of an apology or some useful information about when the train is likely to arrive.

The trouble with lack of delay announcements is generally down to forgetful staff. During major disruption, staff get annoyed with almost constant "We are sorry to announce..." so get the delay announcements switched off. It's all too often the case that nobody remembers to turn them back on afterwards.

 

[Greenback]

There aren't usually any staff at Llanelli after lunch time!

 

[thefab444]

I shouldn't think Llanelli's staff have direct control over the announcements anyway. Probably Swansea (if the ATW system has regional control points) or more likely wherever the ATW Control Centre is. Still, the staff can always ring in and ask for the delay announcements to be switched off.

 

[Greenback]

I'd guess Cardiff. I wish they'd cut donw on the number of repitions of their more irritating announcements, but no doubt it's some instruction from DaFt...

 

[Leslie Fletcher]

Greenback said: "That may be the case, I haven;t been to Dolwyddelan, so it may be a computer voice, that may have been what FNW put in?"

It is a computer voice and mangles the place names as Manaichain described with his mobile phone. The equipment on the platform, at the Blaenau Ffestiniog end, is all new - installed in the past year or so and not in this picture taken in 2008 - so I don't think FNW had anything to do with it.

 

[175001]

Hi Leslie! As a born and bread Penmachno-ite, just over the hill from Dolwyddelan, I was surprised to hear the auto announcments at Betws-y-Coed when I last visited home. I'm now a guard working out of Manchester Victoria but I know a few guards based at the Junction who speak Welsh and make announcements in Welsh! I'm also a Welsh 1st language speaker, so Tal-why-Cafn made me chuckle a bit. But its good to see the investment on our local branch line!

 

[Greenback]

Greenback said: "That may be the case, I haven;t been to Dolwyddelan, so it may be a computer voice, that may have been what FNW put in?"

It is a computer voice and mangles the place names as Manaichain described with his mobile phone. The equipment on the platform, at the Blaenau Ffestiniog end, is all new - installed in the past year or so and not in this picture taken in 2008 - so I don't think FNW had anything to do with it.

That's interesting. It seems completely at odds with everything ATW have doen in the South. Perhaps there has been a change in policy? If so, it's probably to save money!

 

[oglord]

Are you saying that 100% of people in newport can't recognise Caerdydd as Cardiff or Llundain as London? I don't speak Welsh but listening to a few announcements has meant that I udnerstand them!

Whether Newportonians recognise place names or not is not the issue. The rest of the announcement contains the important information and it should be arranged so it is of maximum benefit to maximum people. In any case, as a junction, there are plenty of non-Newportonians at the station wanting to change trains who categorically will have no knowledge of Welsh or Welsh-language placenames.

Talking about place names, the Welsh language announcement farcically seems to just pronounce the exact same English-language place names (in an exaggerated accent) with a few Welsh-language ones thrown in. How does that help? What benefit is it knowing the Welsh-language name for Salisbury? When you get there no-one will have a clue what you're talking about.

I could say it is in fact dogmatic nonsense to insist English is played first just because everyone speaks it.

But is it isn't though. It's a pragmatic reality.

But to take that argument further, Everyone in the Netherlands seems to speak English, why not have all anouncements in English there?

Please don't throw logical fallacies around. English is the everyday language of Newport and Monmouthshire. It is not the everyday language of the Netherlands.

 

[jon0844]

A decent text-to-speech system should allow phonetic data to be added (as Navteq now does with place names for satnav systems, should a customer opt to use it - a customer being someone like Garmin, not you or me).

That solves place names in an instant, but still allows bespoke announcements to be created quickly and easily.

It's only a software issue - and, given how good translation services are (such as Google translate), you could even do a pretty good job of letting someone enter a custom announcement in one language and having the system translate it into any other. Okay, that might be a little hit and miss, but not impossible.

Meanwhile, we have companies like FCC investing in the rubbish ATOS system that offers none of these features!

 

[merlodlliw]

If as seems the announcements at Wrexham have to be Bi Ling, then make them to the point and cut out the banter of, Mind the edge, dont smoke etc etc which prolongs the agony to the traveller who should come paramount before political ideology.

 

[Greenback]

Whether Newportonians recognise place names or not is not the issue. The rest of the announcement contains the important information and it should be arranged so it is of maximum benefit to maximum people. In any case, as a junction, there are plenty of non-Newportonians at the station wanting to change trains who categorically will have no knowledge of Welsh or Welsh-language placenames.

Talking about place names, the Welsh language announcement farcically seems to just pronounce the exact same English-language place names (in an exaggerated accent) with a few Welsh-language ones thrown in. How does that help? What benefit is it knowing the Welsh-language name for Salisbury? When you get there no-one will have a clue what you're talking about.

But is it isn't though. It's a pragmatic reality.

Please don't throw logical fallacies around. English is the everyday language of Newport and Monmouthshire. It is not the everyday language of the Netherlands.

I have to say I agree with some of the nonsenical parts of the announcements such as the Welsh version of Salisbury that you mention. I think some common sense has to be used! As I say, it doesn't really matter a great deal about which version is played first. It's just my opinion that it would be sensible to have a common standard that allows Welsh first in Wales, and English first in England, rather than having it decided on an area by area or town by town basis.

If as seems the announcements at Wrexham have to be Bi Ling, then make them to the point and cut out the banter of, Mind the edge, dont smoke etc etc which prolongs the agony to the traveller who should come paramount before political ideology.

I think thsoe should be cut out in English as well as Welsh!

 

[AlexS]

I have to say I agree with some of the nonsenical parts of the announcements such as the Welsh version of Salisbury that you mention. I think some common sense has to be used! As I say, it doesn't really matter a great deal about which version is played first. It's just my opinion that it would be sensible to have a common standard that allows Welsh first in Wales, and English first in England, rather than having it decided on an area by area or town by town basis.



I think thsoe should be cut out in English as well as Welsh!

You seem to be missing the point though fella. The announcement is played, for information. I have no objection at all to the Welsh language, I can't speak it but I have to speak to customers in Wales every day and I make it a common courtesy to learn the correct pronunciation of towns/streets where appropriate.

However the railway network is for the use of the United Kingdom's public as a whole. Play Welsh annoucements by all means, but far more people in Wales understand English (everyone, even if some probably wouldn't admit it) than do Welsh. So in the case of, for example, a short notice platform alteration, the information isn't getting out to the majority of people who need it, as quickly as it could, because information for the minority is being played our first, for no other reason than dogmatic political ideology.