Welsh rail network is worst in Britain

[merlodlliw]

I have to say, I know Prof Cole, he is very knowledgable and enthusiastic about railways, and is quite a switched on cookie. If he's proposing it (which I wasn't aware of), it's probably well worth considering...

Prof Cole proposed the HSTs & hourly service in his 30 odd page epistle to the Wales & Borders future Welsh Assembly Committee,the Committee had requested a one page from us contributors, he also acts as consultant to the WG Minister on transport.
He first discussed the HSTs use & hourly service earlier in the year when advising WG Rail officers.
How switched on about North East Wales needs is another matter.

 

[pemma]

Today's transport investment, by the way (road and rail) is only in England, but will have Barnett consequentials.
This means Wales will get some extra funds (or already had got it in the Autumn Statement).

Is that how politics works in Wales - England (population 53 million) gets additional infrastructure funds so Wales (population 3 million) is guaranteed to get some as well?

On the same basis that should mean every time London gets infrastructure funds then places like Sheffield should automatically get some as well.

 

[merlodlliw]

Today's transport investment, by the way (road and rail) is only in England, but will have Barnett consequentials.
This means Wales will get some extra funds (or already had got it in the Autumn Statement).
We'll have to see how it spends the money...
You could argue the Wrexham-Chester redoubling is part of it.

One could argue that, however with the WG Minister now having to come clean and produce costings about the redouble, plus the supposed savings,we should soon know why the
two miles of dual tracking has been culled between General Station and Gresford bridge.

 

[oldman]

Is that how politics works in Wales - England (population 53 million) gets additional infrastructure funds so Wales (population 3 million) is guaranteed to get some as well?

Basically yes, Scotland also (not sure about NI). It's because the UK is a multinational state. How the English money is distributed regionally is up to the UK government.

Of course Wales and Scotland can decide not to invest in railway infrastructure if they choose.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Is that how politics works in Wales - England (population 53 million) gets additional infrastructure funds so Wales (population 3 million) is guaranteed to get some as well?

On the same basis that should mean every time London gets infrastructure funds then places like Sheffield should automatically get some as well.

That's how it works with devolved matters (local government, NHS, schools etc).
It's not quite like that with rail, because it's not a fully devolved matter.
The HLOS and its funding for NR stays with the DfT for England and Wales (but not Scotland).
Thus the GW electrification in Wales, and the IEP programme in Wales, is wholly a UK DfT matter.
But roads are devolved, and local transport schemes, so when England awards itself some funds for these, there is a parallel award to Cardiff and Edinburgh and they get to decide what to spend it on.
So there's no guarantee that funds spent on local rail in England (eg stations) will get spent on rail in Wales.
I don't know how they funded the Cardiff Valleys electrification.
Some deal was cooked up between Cardiff and Westminster, probably a mix of UK and Welsh funds, but the detail is not clear.

There are big noises being made about HS2 funding.
The Welsh regard it as an English project and should deliver them parallel funds, but Westminster disagrees.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Is that how politics works in Wales - England (population 53 million) gets additional infrastructure funds so Wales (population 3 million) is guaranteed to get some as well?

On the same basis that should mean every time London gets infrastructure funds then places like Sheffield should automatically get some as well.

Barnet has been with us since 1979 its hardly new or shocking and were into our sixth PM 5 English and 1 Scottish who have not altered it.

 

[clc]

Is that how politics works in Wales - England (population 53 million) gets additional infrastructure funds so Wales (population 3 million) is guaranteed to get some as well?

On the same basis that should mean every time London gets infrastructure funds then places like Sheffield should automatically get some as well.

Some London infrastructure is deemed to be of benefit to the Uk as a whole and therefore doesn't result in Barnett consequentials for Scotland or Wales.

 

[merlodlliw]

Barnet has been with us since 1979 its hardly new or shocking and were into our sixth PM 5 English and 1 Scottish who have not altered it.

Indeed it as, however would the A483 (Oswestry to Chester road ) been culled at Rossett 30 odd years ago a couple of miles short of drawings & estimates NO, but with rail today Yes do half a job,whats two miles of rail even though it would cut the headway time by 50%,

 

[Gareth Marston]

Indeed it as, however would the A483 (Oswestry to Chester road ) been culled at Rossett 30 odd years ago a couple of miles short of drawings & estimates NO, but with rail today Yes do half a job,whats two miles of rail even though it would cut the headway time by 50%,

The Old Welsh Office existed seemingly solely to plan and build roads and nothing but nothing was allowed to get in the way. Remember how the Cambrian was moved at Welshpool for the A483 bypasss as well as the singling from Wrexham to Chester. The faults with the new station at Welshpool have been a running sore for 20 years.

 

[Squaddie]

Remember how the Cambrian was moved at Welshpool for the A483 bypasss as well as the singling from Wrexham to Chester. The faults with the new station at Welshpool have been a running sore for 20 years.

Is that the one where there's a main road between the railway platform and the station building? I noticed it when I travelled on the Cambrian sometime in 2006 or 2007, and remember thinking how ridiculous (and ugly) it looked.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Is that the one where there's a main road between the railway platform and the station building? I noticed it when I travelled on the Cambrian sometime in 2006 or 2007, and remember thinking how ridiculous (and ugly) it looked.

That's it the bypass is built down the formation of the railway , the station building remains as an Edinburgh Wollen Mill shop, the current station is only acccessable by lengthy ramps over the bypass or from the industrial estate on the other side. The surface has rusted through in parts and Powys CC did a bodge repair on it and there are now warning signs about uneven surfaces. There's a real danger that it could be closed for Heath and safety reasons and Welshpool won't have rail access. It saved 2 level crossings or building bridges.

Those that campaigned for the bypass thought it would be the magic answer to everything including economic development today the current town council discuss reversing the decline of Welshpool. As I've said many times Wales is a grand case study in how roads do not have the magic economic impact some people believe they have.

 

[The Planner]

whats two miles of rail even though it would cut the headway time by 50%,

That I would love to see figures for, how is two miles going to cut it by 50%?

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

The Old Welsh Office existed seemingly solely to plan and build roads and nothing but nothing was allowed to get in the way. Remember how the Cambrian was moved at Welshpool for the A483 bypasss as well as the singling from Wrexham to Chester. The faults with the new station at Welshpool have been a running sore for 20 years.

Yes, I'm sure that you are correct, it seems that the Welsh Office, having built a bypass on the former track formations at Dolgellau and Llanidloes in mid-Wales decided to do the same at Welshpool , ignoring the fact that the railway was extant.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Yes, I'm sure that you are correct, it seems that the Welsh Office, having built a bypass on the former track formations at Dolgellau and Llanidloes in mid-Wales decided to do the same at Welshpool , ignoring the fact that the railway was extant.

A certain Denzil Jones from the WO once remarked that the Cambrian line would make a good route for the Newtown bypass.

 

[pemma]

Barnet has been with us since 1979 its hardly new or shocking and were into our sixth PM 5 English and 1 Scottish who have not altered it.

Depends how you class Blair. His father was English but adopted by Glaswegians, while his mother was Irish and he was born in Edinburgh. His family moved to Durham when he was 7/8.

Brown was of course Scottish.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Is that how politics works in Wales - England (population 53 million) gets additional infrastructure funds so Wales (population 3 million) is guaranteed to get some as well?

On the same basis that should mean every time London gets infrastructure funds then places like Sheffield should automatically get some as well.

The Barnett formula (2 "t"s) is used to determine the local government settlement from the UK budget every year for each authority.
It takes into account things like sparse population or inner city problems etc.
All that happens differently in Wales and Scotland is that the amounts for each authority are summed up and given in a lump to Cardiff/Edinburgh, who get to recut it again for their priorities.
In England the authority (eg Sheffield) gets its money direct.
So nobody loses out (theoretically).
Wales and Scotland don't get any more than if they were not devolved, it's just distributed differently.
The upshot is that Welsh counties have less autonomy than English ones.

 

[jones_bangor]

The Barnett formula (2 "t"s) is used to determine the local government settlement from the UK budget every year for each authority.
It takes into account things like sparse population or inner city problems etc.
All that happens differently in Wales and Scotland is that the amounts for each authority are summed up and given in a lump to Cardiff/Edinburgh, who get to recut it again for their priorities.
In England the authority (eg Sheffield) gets its money direct.
So nobody loses out (theoretically).
Wales and Scotland don't get any more than if they were not devolved, it's just distributed differently.
The upshot is that Welsh counties have less autonomy than English ones.

I think your observation that Welsh counties have less autonomy than English counties is an interesting point - I think the upcoming meddling in LAs in Wales by Welsh Government will cause a lot of bitterness towards Cardiff.

 

[merlodlliw]

The original plans,drawings & comments submitted by Network Rail earlier this year to WG, then thrown out show 7.5 miles of dual tracks, 5.5 miles & 2 miles stated a vastly reduced headway from the current 20 minutes or three trains an hour.

Taking out two miles between Gresford & General station we are told by rail experts reduces this possible headway by 50%.Thats where I get this figure from Planner.

The Minister refused to give any details of the new plans agreed by WG & Network Rail(Wales) why the two miles were taken out,but under pressure from questions by North Wales AMs last week, the Minister has now finally agreed to release the plans & drawings plus reasons for culling two miles & cost saving.

You will of course already have access to the new plans/drawings/costings I presume

If the £millions to be spent, is just to allow an extra Cardiff/Holyhead HST service to satisfy politics,we might as well give up.

 

[Gareth Marston]

If the £millions to be spent, is just to allow an extra Cardiff/Holyhead HST service to satisfy politics,we might as well give up.

There's no indication if these are additional trains between Shrewsbury and Chester and onto the NWML or are in lieu of existing services. My fear is that far from uniting the Welsh nation an hourly Cardiff to Holyhead service will be the reason that the north Wales coast does not get wired and if Chester/Crewe/Warrington triangle does get wired North Wales becomes change at Chester disadvantaging the vast majority.

I drove to Bridgend Industrial Estate today rail not a realistic option, lots of the trackbed of the mid Wales railway still intact best time of year to see it.

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

There's no indication if these are additional trains between Shrewsbury and Chester and onto the NWML or are in lieu of existing services. My fear is that far from uniting the Welsh nation an hourly Cardiff to Holyhead service will be the reason that the north Wales coast does not get wired and if Chester/Crewe/Warrington triangle does get wired North Wales becomes change at Chester disadvantaging the vast majority.

I drove to Bridgend Industrial Estate today rail not a realistic option, lots of the trackbed of the mid Wales railway still intact best time of year to see it.

Quite agree! (with your latter point)...for years when I regularly drove to Cardiff (until that nice Ieuan Wyn Jones put on a train for me!) I would indulge in lots of trackspotting, and had my favourites places, one of which was Tylwch nr Rhaeadr.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Quite agree! (with your latter point)...for years when I regularly drove to Cardiff (until that nice Ieuan Wyn Jones put on a train for me!) I would indulge in lots of trackspotting, and had my favourites places, one of which was Tylwch nr Rhaeadr.

Between Rhayader and Llanidloes it is virtually intact you can find ballast along the entire route, theirs still gangers huts in situ in places, if you get above the Marteg tunnel looking south its a very impressive line one which was sadly not recorded enough on film. One of the reasons given why the Moat Lane Junction to Brecon line closed was that it was lightly built examining that section dispels that as a myth.

 

[Tiny Tim]

Welsh railways are not (as already said) a cohesive network. South Wales has a reasonable population and some industry, whilst the North is sparsely populated with little industry. Most of the railways other than the most Southerly are single track and very slow. I recently had cause to travel extensively by train in Wales, and progress was, at best, glacial. The amount of investment required to upgrade these railways is difficult to justify considering the lack of potential customers. Having said that, the road network is equally slow and underdeveloped. The justification to double track and realign for faster track speeds can only be on the basis of social need, the economic case (CBR) isn't going to work.

 

[merlodlliw]

Welsh railways are not (as already said) a cohesive network. South Wales has a reasonable population and some industry, whilst the North is sparsely populated with little industry. Most of the railways other than the most Southerly are single track and very slow. I recently had cause to travel extensively by train in Wales, and progress was, at best, glacial. The amount of investment required to upgrade these railways is difficult to justify considering the lack of potential customers. Having said that, the road network is equally slow and underdeveloped. The justification to double track and realign for faster track speeds can only be on the basis of social need, the economic case (CBR) isn't going to work.

North East Wales is well populated,Wrexham industrial estate is the largest in Wales & 2nd largest in the UK,Airbus site at Broughton is one of the largest single site employers in the UK. Totally disagree with social need only in North East Wales for dual tracks.

 

[Gareth Marston]

North East Wales is well populated,Wrexham industrial estate is the largest in Wales & 2nd largest in the UK,Airbus site at Broughton is one of the largest single site employers in the UK. Totally disagree with social need only in North East Wales for dual tracks.

plenty of English people commute into NE Wales to work as well Deeside Industrial Estate is huge also. Cambrian has higher line speeds and av journey times from Shrewsbury to Talerdigg than Shrewsbury to Birmingham.

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

North East Wales is well populated,Wrexham industrial estate is the largest in Wales & 2nd largest in the UK,Airbus site at Broughton is one of the largest single site employers in the UK. Totally disagree with social need only in North East Wales for dual tracks.

....but how many workers at Broughton or Wrexham Industrial Estate travel by train?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Not much for commuting but there is considerable Airbus business rail travel to/from Chester.
Its main links are with London and Filton (Bristol).
None of it goes anywhere near Cardiff.

 

[merlodlliw]

....but how many workers at Broughton or Wrexham Industrial Estate travel by train?

Many travel by train from Wrexham Industrial Estate on business,however Chester is the best option according to many,due to Wrexham only having an hourly service,I am not aware of any going to Cardiff on business, but a few might,

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

Not much for commuting but there is considerable Airbus business rail travel to/from Chester.
Its main links are with London and Filton (Bristol).
None of it goes anywhere near Cardiff.

Yes, that's a fair point in relation to business rail travel. I would imagine then that the taxi drivers at Chester have a good business running people over to Broughton.

 

[cymro inside]

most journeys to Filton Abbey Wood are easier via Newport so they would use a Cardiiff train

 

[Gareth Marston]

most journeys to Filton Abbey Wood are easier via Newport so they would use a Cardiiff train

As it will be an all day job they probably start from a station close to home rather than work. Crewe even Manchester will be in mix then.