Wensleydale Railway... Current goings-on?

[Pinza-C55]

To those of us, myself of course included, who don't really follow the heritage scene, why is this such a big important thing?

I think he has a lot of money plus (obviously) access to rolling stock and motive power.

 

[Techniquest]

I think he has a lot of money plus (obviously) access to rolling stock and motive power.

The rolling stock and locos, fair enough that makes sense. I wonder why he chose to buy an old railway station in the middle of the countryside!

 

[Pinza-C55]

The rolling stock and locos, fair enough that makes sense. I wonder why he chose to buy an old railway station in the middle of the countryside!

Reopening Aysgarth - Redmire is feasible for someone with a few million to spare. The major obstacle is a bridge over a stream at Redmire which was completely destroyed by a flood. Aysgarth station is beside the famous waterfalls and is a tourist honeypot whereas Redmire has nothing except nice scenery and a pub.

 

[Techniquest]

Fair enough with Aysgarth, it is not an area I know very well. I do not have the relevant Sustrans map it appears, so I cannot easily look at the area and get a better feel for what is where. Yes Maps would do a good job, but there's nothing quite like a proper, paper map to unfold and go through.

It makes one wonder then, is this proposed bridleway/cycle route going to involve crossing the same area which that flood destroyed a bridge in? If so, what defences might be involved to ensure it doesn't happen again? It certainly calls into question the likelihood of a railway making a permanent return.

 

[paul1609]

Fair enough with Aysgarth, it is not an area I know very well. I do not have the relevant Sustrans map it appears, so I cannot easily look at the area and get a better feel for what is where. Yes Maps would do a good job, but there's nothing quite like a proper, paper map to unfold and go through.

It makes one wonder then, is this proposed bridleway/cycle route going to involve crossing the same area which that flood destroyed a bridge in? If so, what defences might be involved to ensure it doesn't happen again? It certainly calls into question the likelihood of a railway making a permanent return.

The missing bridge is just beyond the buffer stops of the current Wensleydale Railway, Ape Beck rings a bell but I could be wrong.
A new footpath bridge has been built there but a replacement rail bridge and its associated embankments would be expensive.
Castle Bolton is only just over a mile from Redmire station and worth a visit. I think the Wensleydale in the past had initial ambitions for a short extensions to a new station on the road below Castle Bolton which halves the distance to the railway but Im sceptical you could justify the new bridge on those circumstances.
The Bridleway/ Cycleroute being proposed is at the other end of the missing section between Garsdale on the S&C and Hawes there's a lot of missing infrastructure in between!

 

[Techniquest]

The missing bridge is just beyond the buffer stops of the current Wensleydale Railway, Ape Beck rings a bell but I could be wrong.
A new footpath bridge has been built there but a replacement rail bridge and its associated embankments would be expensive.
Castle Bolton is only just over a mile from Redmire station and worth a visit. I think the Wensleydale in the past had initial ambitions for a short extensions to a new station on the road below Castle Bolton which halves the distance to the railway but Im sceptical you could justify the new bridge on those circumstances.
The Bridleway/ Cycleroute being proposed is at the other end of the missing section between Garsdale on the S&C and Hawes there's a lot of missing infrastructure in between!

Thank you for the insight, I have a better understanding of the area now I am more and more intrigued by this area, I think a proper explore is getting moved up The List. That list, basically days out and such like, is getting too long!

Understood with the proposed bridleway, I have to confess I thought it was nearer Redmire than that but it actually suits me better having it nearer Garsdale!

 

[quantinghome]

It would still require acquisition of the land and arguably Askrigg and Hawes Stations plus replacement of the 3 span girder river bridge at Hawes and a bridge to cross the road west of Hawes plus refurbishment of the tunnel, 18 miles of track plus pointwork and signalling, locomotives and rolling stock. If Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos fancied a crack it could be done. otherwise no.

It's an entirely speculative suggestion (sorry mods!) and not entirely serious. But that scope sounds similar to the WHR. If that project is anything to go by, we should start by setting up a separate company to build from the Garsdale end. Then the two companies could have a massive falling out and not talk to each other for years...

 

[paul1609]

Reopening Aysgarth - Redmire is feasible for someone with a few million to spare. The major obstacle is a bridge over a stream at Redmire which was completely destroyed by a flood. Aysgarth station is beside the famous waterfalls and is a tourist honeypot whereas Redmire has nothing except nice scenery and a pub.

at least £20 million plus volunteer labour plus land purchase costs Id have thought.

 

[Pinza-C55]

It's an entirely speculative suggestion (sorry mods!) and not entirely serious. But that scope sounds similar to the WHR. If that project is anything to go by, we should start by setting up a separate company to build from the Garsdale end. Then the two companies could have a massive falling out and not talk to each other for years...

I volunteered for Peak Rail in 1988 - 91 and that pretty much sums it up.

Thank you for the insight, I have a better understanding of the area now I am more and more intrigued by this area, I think a proper explore is getting moved up The List. That list, basically days out and such like, is getting too long!

Understood with the proposed bridleway, I have to confess I thought it was nearer Redmire than that but it actually suits me better having it nearer Garsdale!

If you open Google Earth and select the Historical Imagery tab from the side bar you can roll the slider back to January 2002 when there was less vegetation and you get a pretty good idea of the route.

 

[Techniquest]

I did not know you could do that on Google Earth, I might have to actually play around with that tomorrow. Tonight, well I'm still drooling at some of the hotels I've been eyeing up for my next cycling tour. Having expensive tastes is nice, but finding hotels to match such tastes takes some doing and of course costs a pretty penny! Google Earth will have to wait until I finish the planning, but thanks for the tip!

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's an entirely speculative suggestion (sorry mods!) and not entirely serious. But that scope sounds similar to the WHR. If that project is anything to go by, we should start by setting up a separate company to build from the Garsdale end. Then the two companies could have a massive falling out and not talk to each other for years...

And then one could build a line next to the other one rather than using the original. Which actually has an upside, as I quite like the "quirky" feel of the way the WHR(C) runs fast past a number of stations at the Porthmadog end, which alongside the longish trains, island platforms and a lot being to modern standards makes the whole thing feel like a scaled-down Gotthardbahn or something. I really must do it again, but it won't be until next year when they hopefully get rid of the COVID "buy a whole bay and remortgage your house" nonsense and revert to selling individual fares.

 

[paul1609]

And then one could build a line next to the other one rather than using the original. Which actually has an upside, as I quite like the "quirky" feel of the way the WHR(C) runs fast past a number of stations at the Porthmadog end, which alongside the longish trains, island platforms and a lot being to modern standards makes the whole thing feel like a scaled-down Gotthardbahn or something. I really must do it again, but it won't be until next year when they hopefully get rid of the COVID "buy a whole bay and remortgage your house" nonsense and revert to selling individual fares.

Hate to tell you this but the WHR/Ffestiniog post pandemic business model is seen as state of the art in terms of maximising income against limited and costly resources and won't be going anywhere soon, rather I suspect it will spread across the whole heritage railway industry.

 

[zin92]

Reopening Aysgarth - Redmire is feasible for someone with a few million to spare. The major obstacle is a bridge over a stream at Redmire which was completely destroyed by a flood. Aysgarth station is beside the famous waterfalls and is a tourist honeypot whereas Redmire has nothing except nice scenery and a pub.

I don't think that the bridge was destroyed by a flood, it was demolished by British Rail.

Regards

It's an entirely speculative suggestion (sorry mods!) and not entirely serious. But that scope sounds similar to the WHR. If that project is anything to go by, we should start by setting up a separate company to build from the Garsdale end. Then the two companies could have a massive falling out and not talk to each other for years...

A separate company has been set up: https://upperwensleydalerailway.org.uk.

Regards

 

[Bletchleyite]

Hate to tell you this but the WHR/Ffestiniog post pandemic business model is seen as state of the art in terms of maximising income against limited and costly resources and won't be going anywhere soon, rather I suspect it will spread across the whole heritage railway industry.

Then they won't get my business again. Up to them!

They do need to provide a cost effective way of selling single seats because a lot of people like going alone and that business will be lost. Perhaps an airline seated coach?

The rest of it e.g. selling named train experiences is probably a good plan.

 

[paul1609]

I don't think that the bridge was destroyed by a flood, it was demolished by British Rail.

Regards

I think that Apedale Bridge was demolished by British Rail because of flood damage as recently as 1990. It roughly coincided with the end of the limestone trains from Redmire to Teeside.

Then they won't get my business again. Up to them!

They do need to provide a cost effective way of selling single seats because a lot of people like going alone and that business will be lost. Perhaps an airline seated coach?

The rest of it e.g. selling named train experiences is probably a good plan.

The brief that I've heard (I'm open minded about it) suggests that the cost of operating a heritage railway service in 2022 has increased by around 40% that's coal, electricity lubricating oil etc and that as the income is relatively fixed in terms of you can't increase the fares to cover the extra costs the traditional way of operating a heritage railway is no longer viable. The train where an individual turns up on the day and has a compartment or bay of seats to himself is hugely loss making. The plan acknowledges that you lose some customers and that you turn some turn up and go customers away when you don't have capacity but that you run more profitably. The plan is being touted by the HRA and I think you will see a large number of railways move towards it in one form or another. In the circumstances I think it really is a case of survival of the fittest.

 

[Techniquest]

Like Bletchleyite, I won't be having a journey with WHR either, if they can finance their operation entirely on families, and don't want the money from people travelling on their own which is a growing trend these days, then that is absolutely fine. I can quite happily spend my money on other things and at other places.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The brief that I've heard (I'm open minded about it) suggests that the cost of operating a heritage railway service in 2022 has increased by around 40% that's coal, electricity lubricating oil etc and that as the income is relatively fixed in terms of you can't increase the fares to cover the extra costs the traditional way of operating a heritage railway is no longer viable. The train where an individual turns up on the day and has a compartment or bay of seats to himself is hugely loss making. The plan acknowledges that you lose some customers and that you turn some turn up and go customers away when you don't have capacity but that you run more profitably. The plan is being touted by the HRA and I think you will see a large number of railways move towards it in one form or another. In the circumstances I think it really is a case of survival of the fittest.

I don't doubt that. But if there's demand for single seats, why turn it away? Because I simply won't pay £100 for a ride on the WHR(C), I'll go ride trains on the big railway instead, I can, with Advances, almost have a day out in Edinburgh for that. A bay to oneself may not be economic, but a coach of 2+1 airline seats would allow more economic purchases of single or double seats while filling the train.

Unlike others I also have no opposition to an advance booking requirement.

The whole thing is basically similar to the charter market, and they should probably look at that. Charters accommodate single passengers by seating them together. This wasn't possible during the height of COVID (which is why I supported the model when social distancing was in effect) but it is now.

 

[paul1609]

Like Bletchleyite, I won't be having a journey with WHR either, if they can finance their operation entirely on families, and don't want the money from people travelling on their own which is a growing trend these days, then that is absolutely fine. I can quite happily spend my money on other things and at other places.

I don't think it's a decesion that they particularly wanted to take!

I don't doubt that. But if there's demand for single seats, why turn it away? Because I simply won't pay £100 for a ride on the WHR(C), I'll go ride trains on the big railway instead, I can, with Advances, almost have a day out in Edinburgh for that. A bay to oneself may not be economic, but a coach of 2+1 airline seats would allow more economic purchases of single or double seats while filling the train.

The whole thing is basically similar to the charter market, and they should probably look at that. Charters accommodate single passengers by seating them together. This wasn't possible during the height of COVID (which is why I supported the model when social distancing was in effect) but it is now.

Not sure if its WHR or Ffestiniog or both but if you use the Friends of the HRA Interail card you have to phone them in advance and they will manually reserve you a ticket in a spare seat. I think the current model will probably evolve but in the immediate future the railways will just make the best use they can of their infrastructure particularly it systems. I don't think you could reasonably have expected the railways to have foreseen the pandemic and the current cost crisis. They do not have the government pouring in billions of taxpayers subsidy to enable them to adapt to survive like national rail does. Personally I don't think it will be long before you start to see financial failures of various heritage
railways sad though that is.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think it's a decesion that they particularly wanted to take!

For COVID, no. But the charter companies show quite clearly a model that works and fills the seats, while still selling single seats. Indeed, Indian Railways show it as well - basically, what you do is do the seating plan on the day or the day before, then you put all the single bookings together, and e-mail* people their seat numbers. In a way it surprises me Caledonian Sleeper and the Riviera don't work that way too as it'd allow for more flexible sale of rooms against the current situation of allocating some as singles and some as twins despite them all physically being twins.

I suspect it will evolve that way, but in the meantime I can't justify £100 to go from Caernarfon to Porthmadog and back when that could get me to Scotland or a day-trip to anywhere in Europe on easyJet.

The charter-style setup with named trains does make a lot of sense, because people want an experience, not a Taktfahrplan. And you can put one up for booking and when it fills add another, as that saves running half-empty trains.

* Before anyone wheels out the RailUK Standard Minority, they could ask what their seat number was at the ticket office or by telephone/textphone if preferred.

 

[paul1609]

For COVID, no. But the charter companies show quite clearly a model that works and fills the seats, while still selling single seats. Indeed, Indian Railways show it as well - basically, what you do is do the seating plan on the day or the day before, then you put all the single bookings together, and e-mail people their seat numbers. In a way it surprises me Caledonian Sleeper and the Riviera don't work that way too as it'd allow for more flexible sale of rooms against the current situation of allocating some as singles and some as twins despite them all physically being twins.

I suspect it will evolve that way, but in the meantime I can't justify £100 to go from Caernarfon to Porthmadog and back when that could get me to Scotland or a day-trip to anywhere in Europe on easyJet.

Do the charter companies actually use a it package for their reservations? I'd imagine that it's probably far easier to manually manage reservations on br standard stock for 2 trains a month than it is for heritage railway to manage 6 trains a day on various rolling stock combinations.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do the charter companies actually use a it package for their reservations? I'd imagine that it's probably far easier to manually manage reservations on br standard stock for 2 trains a month than it is for heritage railway to manage 6 trains a day on various rolling stock combinations.

I don't know, but if there isn't one it sounds like there's demand for one for an enterprising large preserved railway (such as the FfR/WHR)...

 

[Techniquest]

For COVID, no. But the charter companies show quite clearly a model that works and fills the seats, while still selling single seats. Indeed, Indian Railways show it as well - basically, what you do is do the seating plan on the day or the day before, then you put all the single bookings together, and e-mail* people their seat numbers. In a way it surprises me Caledonian Sleeper and the Riviera don't work that way too as it'd allow for more flexible sale of rooms against the current situation of allocating some as singles and some as twins despite them all physically being twins.

I suspect it will evolve that way, but in the meantime I can't justify £100 to go from Caernarfon to Porthmadog and back when that could get me to Scotland or a day-trip to anywhere in Europe on easyJet.

The charter-style setup with named trains does make a lot of sense, because people want an experience, not a Taktfahrplan. And you can put one up for booking and when it fills add another, as that saves running half-empty trains.

* Before anyone wheels out the RailUK Standard Minority, they could ask what their seat number was at the ticket office or by telephone/textphone if preferred.

I'm absolutely with you on that, £100 for a pleasure ride on what is effectively a miniature railway is taking the redundant waters. When I can instead rock up at my local station, buy a ticket to London, book a hotel/Airbnb and have a night away AND bring back change from my £100 then I'd rather do that Granted, I'd have to travel at certain times to get the fare and be flexible on where exactly I stayed, but I'd rather a day in London with an overnight stay than spend £100 to sit on a small train for a few hours! Never mind the expense of getting there in the first place!

I don't know, but if there isn't one it sounds like there's demand for one for an enterprising large preserved railway (such as the FfR/WHR)...

Agreed!

 

[Marmaduke]

Who owns

Who does own Aysgarth station now?

Why David Smith of course...he of WCRC

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm not sure how significant that is. "Rail enthusiast who has plenty of money buys an old station" isn't exactly a front page scoop.

 

[43301]

I'm not sure how significant that is. "Rail enthusiast who has plenty of money buys an old station" isn't exactly a front page scoop.

He seems to be regarded as an extremely astute businessman, so probably not the type to throw money at what could well be a lost cause!

 

[Techniquest]

I'm not sure how significant that is. "Rail enthusiast who has plenty of money buys an old station" isn't exactly a front page scoop.

Maybe he should consider using some of that money to support the Wensleydale line and make it a more well-known tourist attraction, then there'd be plenty to discuss here.

 

[Bletchleyite]

He seems to be regarded as an extremely astute businessman, so probably not the type to throw money at what could well be a lost cause!

But has he bought it as a business, or to convert into a house to live in? And if it is a business, is it a business of running a railway, or was it foreseeing the cycle path option and perhaps to open as a cafe such as that one on the Monsall Trail?

Maybe he should consider using some of that money to support the Wensleydale line and make it a more well-known tourist attraction, then there'd be plenty to discuss here.

It's up to him what he spends his money on.

 

[Techniquest]

Of course it is, but I would be surprised if he hasn't at least considered it. The cafe thing, I can see that being very popular if it happens.

 

[Pinza-C55]

Maybe he should consider using some of that money to support the Wensleydale line and make it a more well-known tourist attraction, then there'd be plenty to discuss here.

I've read a few articles about it and supposedly the WR is very short of money and Aysgarth station needed extensive repairs plus of course being isolated from the line it contributed little to their bank balance. He may reopen the missing section or not, but whatever happens it won't cost the WR anything.

 

[Marmaduke]

I've read a few articles about it and supposedly the WR is very short of money and Aysgarth station needed extensive repairs plus of course being isolated from the line it contributed little to their bank balance. He may reopen the missing section or not, but whatever happens it won't cost the WR anything.

Its been well documented about Aysgarth station in a thread in about 2018, when it was sold. You should read it.
It brought out a lot of emotion from WR members and the like, probably as far as I can make out / understand because of how the sale was conducted. I believe the WR lost a lot of members over it?
The background behind the sale was cited as money issues and that by selling it, a financial burden would be released, not to mention somehow being tied into accessing a Lottery Grant for Leeming Bar.
Whether this indeed was the truth, only knows, but again from what was said at the time, given Aysgarth's location, its very complete site with platforms, Goods shed, signal box, waiting rooms, station house in an approx 2.5 acre site in the National Park, it was somewhat undersold at circa £400k?
So when the main factor detailed was money issues for the WR, why would you not maximise the sale to boost the finances?
The more I have read about it, via this and the RELAY (WR House Mag) at the time in the letters pages, (Relay Mag 76 or 77?) it appears to be quite a Pandora's box!!
Still its gone now and as people have expressed here, to get to Aysgarth was probably well beyond the WR and many organisations finances.
A case of a nice to have dream, but way too hard to achieve, not to mention pay back.
I think the same argument can be made against the Garsdale - Hawes connection. What justification is there financially?