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Were the 1950s 4 wheel railbuses a total failure?

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montyburns56

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I was looking at a picture of one of those little 4 wheel railbuses that BR used in the 1950s for small branch lines and it got me wondering, were they a total flop? By that I mean did rail users like them, hate them, not mind them? Did they actually improve the services in any way i.e. reliability, passenger comfort etc. Did they actually save any of the branch lines from total closure or improve passenger numbers in any way?
 
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D6130

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I was looking at a picture of one of those little 4 wheel railbuses that BR used in the 1950s for small branch lines and it got me wondering, were they a total flop? By that I mean did rail users like them, hate them, not mind them? Did they actually improve the services in any way i.e. reliability, passenger comfort etc. Did they actually save any of the branch lines from total closure or improve passenger numbers in any way?
As far as Scotland is concerned, I don't think that they saved any lines from total closure, but they probably prolonged services for a few extra years. As a child, I remember seeing them - and on one occasion riding on them - on the Craigendoran-Arrochar local service at the Southern end of the West Highland Line. Our local station at Rhu had been closed in 1956 and lost its signal box and passing loop. It was reopened, as a single-platformed unstaffed halt, when the service changed over from a steam-worked push-pull set to a diesel railbus in 1960. This undoubtably brought about a huge saving in operating costs, but the railbuses were not very reliable and frequently had to be replaced by a class 27 with two old suburban coaches. This increased traincrew and fuel costs and caused time loss because of the need to run round at each terminating station. Eventually, BR gave up and the service was withdrawn after the 1964 Summer season. Other Scottish services which used raibuses in the 'sixties were Grangemouth-Falkirk-Larbert-Alloa, Gleneagles-Crieff-Comrie, Aviemore-Craigellachie, Kilmarnock-Troon-Ayr and Ayr-Dalmellington....none of which were saved by them, although the Kilmarnock-Troon line, which had remained open for freight traffic, was subsequently reopened to passengers in the late 'seventies.
 

RT4038

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I was looking at a picture of one of those little 4 wheel railbuses that BR used in the 1950s for small branch lines and it got me wondering, were they a total flop? By that I mean did rail users like them, hate them, not mind them? Did they actually improve the services in any way i.e. reliability, passenger comfort etc. Did they actually save any of the branch lines from total closure or improve passenger numbers in any way?
With bus companies converting routes with that size of vehicle to one-man-operation, the possibility of a diesel railbus with a two man crew only stopping at a few stations and halts rather than roadside bus stops, being more economic than a replacement bus, was remote in the extreme. I don't think any of the routes that they regularly ran were saved from closure. I believe that they did attract additional custom on some lines, but starting from a very low base. Hopeless.
 

341o2

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Likewise, I don't think they actually saved any lines, but were cheap to build and run.

The Western (Ex Southern) line to Bodmin North was served by one 1964 to 1967, when the line was closed, a new exchange platform was built at Boscarne where the railbus connected with the Bodmin - Padstow trains. Smallbrook is not unique, likewise Boscarne had no other access apart from rail.

and they were the forerunners of Pacers
 

RT4038

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Likewise, I don't think they actually saved any lines, but were cheap to build and run.

The Western (Ex Southern) line to Bodmin North was served by one 1964 to 1967, when the line was closed, a new exchange platform was built at Boscarne where the railbus connected with the Bodmin - Padstow trains. Smallbrook is not unique, likewise Boscarne had no other access apart from rail.

and they were the forerunners of Pacers
They may have been a forerunner of the Pacer from a mechanical point of view, but commercially the Pacers had a much larger capacity (at least two double deck bus loads).

The service mentioned above (Bodmin North-Boscarne Junction) was a barmy hangover that should have been shut years before. How a small town like Bodmin could possibly justify two stations, (neither on a main line) long after common ownership of both, is just one example of the crackpot money wasting far into BR days.
 

Gloster

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I think that on a number of lines, presumably ones where they took over directly from steam, they caused passenger numbers to go up so much that they had to be replaced by DMUs or loco and coaches, which meant that part of the savings immediately disappeared. Just about the only ones of their services to survive were the Braintree branch and the stub to Sudbury of the Marks Tey-Cambridge one.
 

ChiefPlanner

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Good idea , but the overall fixed costs of the railway worked against them. Not a success really overseas either (though someone will put me right in a flash) )

Braintree was a success I guess - from DMU to 25kV......
 

The exile

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In one sense they were doomed to “ failure”. Where they were well received, traffic outgrew them; where they were sufficient for the traffic, the line was probably a basket case
Their German cousins lasted much longer (I believe one still operates) but once a line was down to a single rail bus pulling no trailers the writing was usually on the wall. Some still ( not really) earning their keep further east
 

30907

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Good idea , but the overall fixed costs of the railway worked against them. Not a success really overseas either (though someone will put me right in a flash)

If you insist :)

DB and DR both used them extensively, as did CSD/CD/ZSSK and MAV - the difference being that they weren't assumed to be single units, but often ran as multiple railcars and unpowered trailer(s)

From a passenger comfort point of view, they probably replaced 4-wheel coaches (which lasted into the 70s in those countries, West Germany excepted) and earlier versions of railbus - whereas on BR they replaced elderly movie stock.

They are only now disappearing on CD in particular, the crunch issue I suspect being accessibility rather than comfort.

The service mentioned above (Bodmin North-Boscarne Junction) was a barmy hangover that should have been shut years before.
Or, put another way, it was a convenient economy using the redundant cars from Tetbury and Cirencester that had already closed.
 

nw1

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They may have been a forerunner of the Pacer from a mechanical point of view, but commercially the Pacers had a much larger capacity (at least two double deck bus loads).

The service mentioned above (Bodmin North-Boscarne Junction) was a barmy hangover that should have been shut years before. How a small town like Bodmin could possibly justify two stations, (neither on a main line) long after common ownership of both, is just one example of the crackpot money wasting far into BR days.

At the other extreme, the fact that it no longer has even ONE station actually in the town is one of many, many examples of how Beeching went too far, in the sense that it closed not just obscure lines through sleepy villages, but also lines through multiple significantly-sized towns. One would think saving the route through Bodmin town and on to Wadebridge and Padstow would generate a fair amount of traffic.
 

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Whether the originals were successful is an interesting discussion, but they did of course have followers - Pacers, and indeed the Parry People Movers which in size are probably more true to the originals, albeit filling a very small niche with no more likely ever to be built.
 

nw1

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In one sense they were doomed to “ failure”. Where they were well received, traffic outgrew them; where they were sufficient for the traffic, the line was probably a basket case
Their German cousins lasted much longer (I believe one still operates) but once a line was down to a single rail bus pulling no trailers the writing was usually on the wall. Some still ( not really) earning their keep further east

Not sure exactly what these railbuses looked like but if we're talking about Germany, there are branch lines which were run, in the 1980s at least, with one-car DMUs which might have been a similar concept.

The Bad Krozingen-Muenstertal branch in the Black Forest was run as such: a (modern, white) one-car DMU during the day, generally as a shuttle with a few main-line extensions to Freiburg in the peaks and also for shopping/sightseeing visits (there was a 10:00 or so through service). The stations were mostly very small and unstaffed halts, but Staufen (the largest town) was bigger and staffed, as was Muenstertal itself, I think. This was run by a local company, SWEG, not DB. (This was 1986 and 1987). There was also an older, antique looking red DMU which ran one service in the peak and had a very loud horn which was guaranteed to wake you up in the morning; the campsite I was staying at was adjacent to the railway.

The sort of line that I'm sure would never have survived in the UK under Beeching. Glad to report it was still running in 2009, though even the more modern 1987 DMU had been replaced by a newer-style DMU (still one-car only though).
 
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AJG3

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Wasn't the Witham to Braintree branch worked by railbuses at one point? That line survived and prospered.
 

The exile

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Not sure exactly what these railbuses looked like but if we're talking about Germany, there are branch lines which were run, in the 1980s at least, with one-car DMUs which might have been a similar concept.

The Bad Krozingen-Muenstertal branch in the Black Forest was run as such: a (modern, white) one-car DMU during the day, generally as a shuttle with a few main-line extensions to Freiburg in the peaks and also for shopping/sightseeing visits (there was a 10:00 or so through service). The stations were mostly very small and unstaffed halts, but Staufen (the largest town) was bigger and staffed, as was Muenstertal itself, I think. This was run by a local company, SWEG, not DB. (This was 1986 and 1987). There was also an older, antique looking red DMU which ran one service in the peak and had a very loud horn which was guaranteed to wake you up in the morning; the campsite I was staying at was adjacent to the railway.

The sort of line that I'm sure would never have survived in the UK under Beeching. Glad to report it was still running in 2009, though even the more modern 1987 DMU had been replaced by a newer-style DMU (still one-car only though).
That one peak working was probably what kept the passenger service going ( schools traffic). An all-day single Schienenbus service with no peak strengthening probably meant no significant school traffic, so high up the endangered list when money was tight ( which it wasn’t quite so often in Baden-Wuerttemberg).
In the 1980s there were several West German branch lines where the entire service was a ( road) bus except for one train at about 7am and one back vaguely at lunchtime ( for the school traffic)
 

nw1

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That one peak working was probably what kept the passenger service going ( schools traffic). An all-day single Schienenbus service with no peak strengthening probably meant no significant school traffic, so high up the endangered list when money was tight ( which it wasn’t quite so often in Baden-Wuerttemberg).
In the 1980s there were several West German branch lines where the entire service was a ( road) bus except for one train at about 7am and one back vaguely at lunchtime ( for the school traffic)

Now you mention it, I think the timetable also showed bus services on the route as well as the trains - but there were trains quite often, about every 2 hours.

The timetable also showed Staufen to Sulzburg, the next valley south - but there were no actual trains, that was all buses. Nonetheless it looked like it was also run by SWEG. Not sure if the Sulzburg branch was fully closed by then, or just abandoned in the Barlaston and Wedgwood sense.
 

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Now you mention it, I think the timetable also showed bus services on the route as well as the trains - but there were trains quite often, about every 2 hours.

The timetable also showed Staufen to Sulzburg, the next valley south - but there were no actual trains, that was all buses. Nonetheless it looked like it was also run by SWEG. Not sure if the Sulzburg branch was fully closed by then, or just abandoned in the Barlaston and Wedgwood sense.
According to the German Wikipedia pages the train service from Staufen on the Munstertalbahn to Sulzburg was withdrawn in 1969 and the goods service in 1973; this section was lifted within a few years. Goods remained as far as an industry at Grunern (1.8 km) until it went bust in 1996.
 

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Not sure exactly what these railbuses looked like but if we're talking about Germany, there are branch lines which were run, in the 1980s at least, with one-car DMUs which might have been a similar concept.
I was thinking specifically of the 4-wheeled Uerdingen Schienenbus (class 795/798 an trailers) and the DR 771/772; there was other similar designs for Non-DB operators.
I suspect SWEG were using a bogie car by the date you mention, but it's not my specialist subject :)
 

Taunton

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The BR railbuses were an experiment out of control. 20-odd vehicles as a trial, a bit too much, but five different types from five different manufacturers ...???

Better, conceptually, were the slightly earlier by a couple of years 11 "flying brick" cars from ACV, so it's not clear why a second attempt at the experiment was needed. Here : ACV / BUT (railcar.co.uk) . These had multiple unit controls and there were some trailers, so trains could be formed of them where needed. Of the more recent type, only the German cars had couplings and buffers. They may have lacked buffing strength, to save weight, but anyone on the Western Region could have told of the difficulties with the original GWR railcars that lacked these, especially when broken down on the line!
 

30907

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Are these railbuses the same type as the one that Airfix produced a kit for many years ago?
Airfix did one of the 5, can't remember which.

The BR railbuses were an experiment out of control. 20-odd vehicles as a trial, a bit too much, but five different types from five different manufacturers ...???
About par for modernisation plan stuff!

I don't know if there's any official back story, but I wonder if BR were pushed (externally or internally) into the experiment by people who'd seen/heard about the early Schienenbusse and were desperate to head off the branch line closures they could see coming?
 
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306024

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Incidentally the vehicle at the East Anglian Railway Museum at Chappel & Wakes Colne has recently been restored to working order. Click on the Summer Diesel Days video in the link for a couple of glimpses.

https://www.earm.co.uk/
 

nanstallon

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Airfix did one of the 5, can't remember which.


About par for modernisation plan stuff!

I don't know if there's any official back story, but I wonder if BR were pushed (externally or internally) into the experiment by people who'd seen/heard about the early Schienenbusse and were desperate to head off the branch line closures they could see coming?

The Airfix kit was a Park Royal railbus. I rode on one from Aviemore to Craigellachie in 1965, just before that scenic line closed to passengers. It wasn't overcrowded!
 

magpiespy

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Incidentally the vehicle at the East Anglian Railway Museum at Chappel & Wakes Colne has recently been restored to working order. Click on the Summer Diesel Days video in the link for a couple of glimpses.

https://www.earm.co.uk/
I was lucky enough to see it moving around the yard this time last year, and took this photo.
 

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24Grange

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At the other extreme, the fact that it no longer has even ONE station actually in the town is one of many, many examples of how Beeching went too far, in the sense that it closed not just obscure lines through sleepy villages, but also lines through multiple significantly-sized towns. One would think saving the route through Bodmin town and on to Wadebridge and Padstow would generate a fair amount of traffic.

If you think of the traffic Newquay & St Ives generates, probably yes ( although both bigger places)
 

The exile

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I was thinking specifically of the 4-wheeled Uerdingen Schienenbus (class 795/798 an trailers) and the DR 771/772; there was other similar designs for Non-DB operators.
I suspect SWEG were using a bogie car by the date you mention, but it's not my specialist subject :)
This being the DR version - unsurprisingly, the route it was working here in 1996 was gone before the year was out19960411 GRUNOW - 202 254 heads for Königs Wusterhausen, while 772 107 waits with RB5505 to Co...jpg.
 

Western Lord

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If you think of the traffic Newquay & St Ives generates, probably yes ( although both bigger places)
If only they had known about a chap called Rick Stein in the sixties. A (Plymouth)-Bodmin Road-Bodmin-Wadebridge-Padstow service would, today, probably make money, in summer at least, but it wasn't just Beeching, the Western Region was determined to eliminate as much of the old Southern in its patch as possible.
 
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