Were there ever any Waterloo-Waterloo via Addlestone roundabout services?

[AY1975]

Following on from the now locked thread from last year on trains that take circular routes at https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/trivia-trains-which-take-circular-routes.228523/ in which the Addlestone line was mentioned in entry #39, does anyone know if any Waterloo-Waterloo via Addlestone roundabout services ever ran, and if so when they last operated? Did they go via Richmond or the Hounslow Loop?

Or were there ever any trains that ran through onto the Addlestone line at Weybridge but didn't then go all the way back to Waterloo (e.g. Waterloo-Weybridge-Staines)?

I seem to remember a Network SouthEast map from the early days of NSE (1986/87/88ish) that showed the Addlestone line as having a limited peak hour only through service to/from Waterloo via Weybridge.

 

[Taunton]

Although not maybe the whole loop back, in my 1963 timetable there were a few peak hour trains between Waterloo and back to Staines, via this link, which obviously overlap with Weybridge to Waterloo via Staines ones.

Even more surprising are several Waterloo to Ascot trains, via the main line, an east-to-north curve (now lifted) before Farnborough, on to Frimley, Camberley and Ascot, which also overlap with the Aldershot-Ascot-Waterloo services. These are both peak hour and very first/last services, likely to get to/from some depot. I don't know if they were steam, or if, pre-Bournemouth electrification, the electrification extended beyond Brookwood as far as this link. Otherwise it's about a 2 mile gap for an otherwise all-electric set of services.

Although in the evening peak both these would need to cross right over the layout to branch off, the service at that time, particularly inbound, was nothing like now. And no worse than what we still have at Woking.

 

[JonathanH]

Prior to the 2004 simplification of the South West Trains timetable, indeed probably slightly earlier, maybe just until 2001, there was a 12-car morning peak service which started at Virginia Water, having come empty, and ran into London via Addlestone and Weybridge. There wasn't an equivalent service in the evening.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Prior to the 2004 simplification of the South West Trains timetable, indeed probably slightly earlier, maybe just until 2001, there was a 12-car morning peak service which started at Virginia Water, having come empty, and ran into London via Addlestone and Weybridge

Be interested out of curiosity if you can identify this. That doesn't ring true with something that would have formed part of the base plan back then (I may be mistaken), however during the transition from 400 to Desiro stock just prior to 2004, there may well have been a number of 'moves' that were put in place for a few weeks/months as part of that transition?

Conversely it was sometimes necessary to run ECS trains from Clapham Yard to Staines via the Down Main and Weybridge, due to a lack of paths down the Windsor side.

 

[30907]

There were certainly workings to/from Chertsey via Weybridge, if not true "rounders." The 1958 SR timetable on Timetableworld.com (T72) would be typical for 1937-67.

Edit: 8.8am ex Virginia Water, 5.7 and 6.7pm ex Waterloo - the 5.7 was a rounder.

 

[SWT_USER]

Prior to the 2004 simplification of the South West Trains timetable, indeed probably slightly earlier, maybe just until 2001, there was a 12-car morning peak service which started at Virginia Water, having come empty, and ran into London via Addlestone and Weybridge. There wasn't an equivalent service in the evening.

Presumably much easier to path in that direction as it didn't have to cross the mainline at Weybridge.

 

[jfollows]

Presumably much easier to path in that direction as it didn't have to cross the mainline at Weybridge.

There used to be, 17:02 from Waterloo, but it was removed from the timetable many years earlier. In the 1974 timetable but gone from the 1977 timetable.

Be interested out of curiosity if you can identify this. That doesn't ring true with something that would have formed part of the base plan back then (I may be mistaken), however during the transition from 400 to Desiro stock just prior to 2004, there may well have been a number of 'moves' that were put in place for a few weeks/months as part of that transition?

Conversely it was sometimes necessary to run ECS trains from Clapham Yard to Staines via the Down Main and Weybridge, due to a lack of paths down the Windsor side.

In 1997, for example, 07:33 14 Virginia Water to Waterloo, 07h49 at Weybridge, all stations to Esher, then Surbiton and Waterloo 08w19.

 

[Deepgreen]

In the 1970s I believe there were at least some, headcode 14, also used for Chertsey/Webridge to Waterloo. Not sure how many, possibly even only one per day.

 

[jfollows]

In the 1970s I believe there were at least some, headcode 14, also used for Chertsey/Webridge to Waterloo. Not sure how many, possibly even only one per day.

See https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...rical-patterns-1967-2003.220711/#post-5253591 for 1974 services:

07:45 Chertsey-Waterloo (ecs from Staines Depot)
08:01 Chertsey-Waterloo (07:12 from Waterloo via Richmond)
08:15 Chertsey-Waterloo (ecs from Staines Depot)
08:27 Chertsey-Waterloo (07:34 from Waterloo via Richmond)
16:11 Chertsey-Waterloo (ecs from Staines Depot)
16:50 ecs Chertsey-Waterloo "conveys mails from Chertsey to Waterloo" starts from Staines Depot

Fewer services the other way in 1974 because of the flat junction at Weybridge, but there was one:
17:02 Waterloo-Waterloo via Weybridge, then stations to Chertsey and onwards

 

[Big Jumby 74]

In 1997, for example, 07:33 14 Virginia Water to Waterloo

Mm! Are you able to provide stock formation, previous working(s) and next working etc at Waterloo? May be it'll jog a misty memory....

 

[jfollows]

Mm! Are you able to provide stock formation, previous working(s) and next working etc at Waterloo? May be it'll jog a misty memory....

No, I only have the WTT!

 

[JonathanH]

Mm! Are you able to provide stock formation, previous working(s) and next working etc at Waterloo? May be it'll jog a misty memory....

The 0732 from Virginia Water to London Waterloo via Weybridge definitely continued into the Summer 2000 timetable. It was a 12-VEP formation, as it used to overhang the end of the platform at Virginia Water, having come via Staines.

In later timetables, from Summer 2003, this train was diverted to start from West Byfleet. (That coincided with the off-peak Reading via Hounslow service being diverted to Weybridge to remove the Staines to Weybridge shuttle that was blamed for poor performance on the Windsor lines.)

Also, at that time, the last Reading service from Waterloo was the 2335 from Waterloo to Reading and Wimbledon, splitting at Staines. I'd imagine this was a pair of 455s, the issue of course being that neither Winnersh and Earley, nor Chertsey and Addlestone could accommodate an 8-455 formation at that time, and of course the latter stations still can't.

 

[jfollows]

Mm! Are you able to provide stock formation, previous working(s) and next working etc at Waterloo? May be it'll jog a misty memory....

Ah, but the WH WTT at https://history.networkrail.co.uk/uncategorized/IO_a995e623-a52c-4e64-933d-df21fa2a077f/ shows the previous working as (probably) 06:17 13 Waterloo-Virginia Water via Hounslow and Staines, arriving 07:23.

 

[JonathanH]

Ah, but the WH WTT at https://history.networkrail.co.uk/uncategorized/IO_a995e623-a52c-4e64-933d-df21fa2a077f/ shows the previous working as (probably) 06:17 13 Waterloo-Virginia Water via Hounslow and Staines, arriving 07:23.

That will be a different train. No chance of a stopper on the Hounslow Loop running as 12-VEP. Is there a WTT for the 2000 summer timetable?

 

[Steven Taylor]

I don't know if they were steam, or if, pre-Bournemouth electrification, the electrification extended beyond Brookwood as far as this link. Otherwise it's about a 2 mile gap for an otherwise all-electric set of services.

From memory, around 1963, I am 90% plus certain the electrification did extend past the junction for Alton, westwards to the spur to Frimley. I think the conductor rails were only laid on the slow lines, and were not very shiny owing to the limited use of electric trains at this time.

 

[jfollows]

That will be a different train. No chance of a stopper on the Hounslow Loop running as 12-VEP. Is there a WTT for the 2000 summer timetable?

I agree, but there's nothing else in the WTT, so possibly that year (1997) it wasn't 12-VEP is all I can think of.

That will be a different train. No chance of a stopper on the Hounslow Loop running as 12-VEP. Is there a WTT for the 2000 summer timetable?

Yes, May 2000 at https://history.networkrail.co.uk/uncategorized/IO_68a993b9-327b-41a9-864e-c8e6c63e5acd/ which shows the ECS was 06.57 from Clapham Yard, arriving 07.30.

 

[SWT_USER]

The 0732 from Virginia Water to London Waterloo via Weybridge definitely continued into the Summer 2000 timetable. It was a 12-VEP formation, as it used to overhang the end of the platform at Virginia Water, having come via Staines.

In later timetables, from Summer 2003, this train was diverted to start from West Byfleet. (That coincided with the off-peak Reading via Hounslow service being diverted to Weybridge to remove the Staines to Weybridge shuttle that was blamed for poor performance on the Windsor lines.)

Also, at that time, the last Reading service from Waterloo was the 2335 from Waterloo to Reading and Wimbledon, splitting at Staines. I'd imagine this was a pair of 455s, the issue of course being that neither Winnersh and Earley, nor Chertsey and Addlestone could accommodate an 8-455 formation at that time, and of course the latter stations still can't.

Chertsey and Addlestone platforms are both long enough for 10 carriage trains now. The issue with 8.455 is Virginia Water I think.

I hadn't realised prior to this thread that either station had quicker direct services to Waterloo. I guess the current situation is a compromise - more regular service than previously but a change required to get to Waterloo in a reasonable time.

 

[Helvellyn]

Wasn't the Shepperton branch originally planned to be extended to Addlestone? Wonder if that would have led to a circular service and an attempt to get a dive under/over in somehow from the Down Main Slow to the Addlestone branch.

 

[JonathanH]

Going back a little further, the 1991 timetable shows an actual London Waterloo to London Waterloo via Addlestone service.

It ran at 0635 from London Waterloo, all stops via Hounslow, had a three minute dwell at Virginia Water leaving at 0733, and ran into Waterloo via Weybridge.

The effect of the service in this path appears to have been to allow a train to run non-stop from Walton-on-Thames to Waterloo directly in front, with the Virginia Water starter picking up the stations between Walton-on-Thames and Surbiton.

Notable is that today, the service from Weybridge to Waterloo via Surbiton is somewhat more sparse than it was in 1991.
1991 departures between 0700 and 0805 were
0714 53 0642 Farnham to Waterloo 0748 (all stations to Surbiton, Clapham Junction)
0730 75 0710 Guildford to Waterloo 0803 (all stations to Surbiton)
0742 63 0655 Basingstoke to Waterloo 0809 (fast from Walton-on-Thames)
0746 13 0733 Virginia Water to Waterloo 0818 (all stations to Surbiton)
0755 53 0722 Farnham to Waterloo 0830 (all stations to Surbiton)
0805 10 0755 Woking to Waterloo 0838 (all stations to Surbiton)

2023 departures between 0700 and 0805 are
0711 10 0702 Woking to Waterloo 0745 (all stations to Surbiton)
0737 10 0725 Woking to Waterloo 0815 (all stations to Surbiton)
0743 64 0706 Basingtoke to Waterloo 0807 (fast from Weybridge, previous stop Farnborough)
0800 10 0746 Woking to Waterloo 0836 (all stations to Surbiton)

 

[30907]

Notable is that today, the service from Weybridge to Waterloo via Surbiton is somewhat more sparse than it was in 1991.
1991 departures between 0700 and 0805 were
0714 53 0642 Farnham to Waterloo 0748 (all stations to Surbiton, Clapham Junction)
0730 75 0710 Guildford to Waterloo 0803 (all stations to Surbiton)
0742 63 0655 Basingstoke to Waterloo 0809 (fast from Walton-on-Thames)
0746 13 0733 Virginia Water to Waterloo 0818 (all stations to Surbiton)
0755 53 0722 Farnham to Waterloo 0830 (all stations to Surbiton)
0805 10 0755 Woking to Waterloo 0838 (all stations to Surbiton)

2023 departures between 0700 and 0805 are
0711 10 0702 Woking to Waterloo 0745 (all stations to Surbiton)
0737 10 0725 Woking to Waterloo 0815 (all stations to Surbiton)
0743 64 0706 Basingtoke to Waterloo 0807 (fast from Weybridge, previous stop Farnborough)
0800 10 0746 Woking to Waterloo 0836 (all stations to Surbiton)

Pre-covid there was 0710, 0721 and a 10-min interval service 0741-0843.

 

[Snow1964]

Going back a little further, the 1991 timetable shows an actual London Waterloo to London Waterloo via Addlestone service.

It ran at 0635 from London Waterloo, all stops via Hounslow, had a three minute dwell at Virginia Water leaving at 0733, and ran into Waterloo via Weybridge.

The effect of the service in this path appears to have been to allow a train to run non-stop from Walton-on-Thames to Waterloo directly in front, with the Virginia Water starter picking up the stations between Walton-on-Thames and Surbiton.

Notable is that today, the service from Weybridge to Waterloo via Surbiton is somewhat more sparse than it was in 1991.
1991 departures between 0700 and 0805 were
0714 53 0642 Farnham to Waterloo 0748 (all stations to Surbiton, Clapham Junction)
0730 75 0710 Guildford to Waterloo 0803 (all stations to Surbiton)
0742 63 0655 Basingstoke to Waterloo 0809 (fast from Walton-on-Thames)
0746 13 0733 Virginia Water to Waterloo 0818 (all stations to Surbiton)
0755 53 0722 Farnham to Waterloo 0830 (all stations to Surbiton)
0805 10 0755 Woking to Waterloo 0838 (all stations to Surbiton)

2023 departures between 0700 and 0805 are
0711 10 0702 Woking to Waterloo 0745 (all stations to Surbiton)
0737 10 0725 Woking to Waterloo 0815 (all stations to Surbiton)
0743 64 0706 Basingtoke to Waterloo 0807 (fast from Weybridge, previous stop Farnborough)
0800 10 0746 Woking to Waterloo 0836 (all stations to Surbiton)

Just dug out my reprint of last Southern Railway timetable (October 6th, 1947 until further notice)

Trains from Weybridge (weekdays)
03:11 Walton, Esher, Waterloo only
05:46 ex Guildford 05:22, all stn Surb, then Wim, ClapJ, Wat 06:20
06:16 ex Guildford 05:52 all to Surbiton then Waterloo 06:46
06:46 ex Guildford 06:22 all to Surbiton then Waterloo 07:16
07:16 ex Haslemere 06:29 all to Surbiton then Waterloo 07:46
07:25 ex Woking 07:16 all stn to Surbiton then Waterloo 07:56
07:46 ex Guildford 07:22 all to Surbiton then Waterloo 08:17
07:53 ex P& Southsea 06:10 Walton, Esher, Surb, Waterloo 08:22
08:00 ex Farnham 07:27 all stn to Surbiton, then Waterloo 08:31
08:16 ex Bentley 07:33 all stn to Surbiton, then Waterloo 08:47
08:24 ex Chertsey all stn to Surbiton, then Waterloo 08:54
08:31 ex Alton 07:54, Walton and Waterloo 08:57
08:46 ex Ports&S 07:08 all stn to Surb, Waterloo 09:16

So basic service was half hourly, in 30 mins from Weybridge with peak extras. Some peak hour trains took 31 minutes. SWR is embarrassingly slow compared to post war Southern

The train starting at Chertsey doesn't appear to be via Virginia Water.

 

[JonathanH]

The train starting at Chertsey doesn't appear to be via Virginia Water.

Is it possible to work out whether the Chertsey starter came from?

 

[MichaelAMW]

See https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...rical-patterns-1967-2003.220711/#post-5253591 for 1974 services:

There was also a 1702 Waterloo-Waterloo via Chertsey and Hounslow in 1974.

I have a 1966 timetable:

0815 Chertsey-Waterloo, from Waterloo 0714 via Brentford
1707 Waterloo-Waterloo via Chertsey and Brentford
1807 Waterloo-Chertsey

The last couple of trains at night from both directions terminated at Chertsey. It's a massive table - 166 pages, 'Guildford, Woking, Hampton Court, Shepperton, Horsham, Dorking North and London', includes Chessington and through trains from Horsham and Epsom to Victoria and London Bridge.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Is it possible to work out whether the Chertsey starter came from?

Probably Chertsey. The steam shed closed in 1937, after which a handful of sidings were 'juiced'. In 1962 Chertsey's stock allocation was 26 cars, consisting of 2 x 4 EPB, 5 x 2 EPB and an 8 SUB. This had increased (total cars) to 30 by Winter 1972, in the form of 4 x 4 EPB and 7 x 2 EPB. Not forgetting the crew depot as well of course, albeit not a very large establishment. In 1962 there appeared to be 6 starts (a.m.) and 6 finishes (p.m.), while in 1972 appeared to be 6 starts (a.m.) but 7 finishes (p.m.).
Chertsey closed as a stabling point and crew depot during 1974 IIRC.

I agree, but there's nothing else in the WTT, so possibly that year (1997) it wasn't 12-VEP is all I can think of.

1993 it was an 8 Vep for what's it's worth. Being a Clapham start and running non stop to Virginia, it was likely a Waterloo crew. Shouldn't have thought the rear end side were too happy having to work a 12 car around the Chertsey section, even though most passengers would be joining at that hour of day.

 

[Bikeman78]

There used to be, 17:02 from Waterloo, but it was removed from the timetable many years earlier. In the 1974 timetable but gone from the 1977 timetable.


In 1997, for example, 07:33 14 Virginia Water to Waterloo, 07h49 at Weybridge, all stations to Esher, then Surbiton and Waterloo 08w19.

I think I went on that train once. The Staines to Weybridge shuttle was a 455 in the 1990s so this train was the only way to do the line on slam door stock.

 

[JonathanH]

The Staines to Weybridge shuttle was a 455 in the 1990s so this train was the only way to do the line on slam door stock.

By the late 1990s the shuttle was typically a CEP or CIG unit.

 

[Undaunted]

Probably Chertsey. The steam shed closed in 1937, after which a handful of sidings were 'juiced'. In 1962 Chertsey's stock allocation was 26 cars, consisting of 2 x 4 EPB, 5 x 2 EPB and an 8 SUB. This had increased (total cars) to 30 by Winter 1972, in the form of 4 x 4 EPB and 7 x 2 EPB. Not forgetting the crew depot as well of course, albeit not a very large establishment. In 1962 there appeared to be 6 starts (a.m.) and 6 finishes (p.m.), while in 1972 appeared to be 6 starts (a.m.) but 7 finishes (p.m.).
Chertsey closed as a stabling point and crew depot during 1974 IIRC.


1993 it was an 8 Vep for what's it's worth. Being a Clapham start and running non stop to Virginia, it was likely a Waterloo crew. Shouldn't have thought the rear end side were too happy having to work a 12 car around the Chertsey section, even though most passengers would be joining at that hour of day.

At the risk of going horribly off topic, an unexpected fact about Chertsey depot is that the drivers (not sure about the guards) had route knowledge to Portsmouth Harbour, working the 16.50 down from Waterloo and the 18.45 back up as far as Guildford in summer 1973. The last part of the driver's diagram saw them relieved at Staines on the 22.12 from Waterloo to Weybridge, travelling home on the same train. The consequence of this was that the mileage of the diagram was 193m 48ch...had they worked the train to Chertsey they would have gained another 6m 54ch and a mileage bonus. Must have been a mean lot in the Waterloo train planning office in those days...

 

[Bikeman78]

By the late 1990s the shuttle was typically a CEP or CIG unit.

Yes that's true. Looking through my records I did Egham to Clapham Junction via Weybridge in May 1997 on a VEP. I doubt the shuttle was slam door at that time or I wouldn't have got up at silly o'clock in the morning to cover the peak time train.

 

[Juniper Driver]

Yes I remember doing them on an early morning train head code 13 when I first transferred and started driving at Waterloo.
Not sure of the departure time from Waterloo was it 0615?
All stations to Surbiton via Hounslow and Staines then fast to Waterloo.

 

[jfollows]

Yes I remember doing them on an early morning train head code 13 when I first transferred and started driving at Waterloo.
Not sure of the departure time from Waterloo was it 0615?
All stations to Surbiton via Hounslow and Staines then fast to Waterloo.

Post 13 above?