West Coast Franchise speculation

[driver_m]

Is there any more capacity to run additional services due to Norton Bridge? If so, could that be added - and could it run from Euston? Or Birmingham? Or both?

Think the issue has been shifted northwards to Crewe now, trying to get something through there. Via Stoke and Macc would be the easiest option to use up the capacity at Norton Bridge now I'd presume.

 

[OrangeJuice]

Think the issue has been shifted northwards to Crewe now, trying to get something through there. Via Stoke and Macc would be the easiest option to use up the capacity at Norton Bridge now I'd presume.

Although Northern are wanting to add an extra service between Macclesfield and Manchester. I'm not sure if this would affect any capacity on that route

 

[The Planner]

Cheadle Hulme is the issue, though if Northern add another stopper then it pretty much shuts the door on a fast path.

 

[pt_mad]

Plus the GNWR service is going to have to get 6 return paths on the WCML to fit in.

 

[The Planner]

They fit, they are taking the known existing paths.

 

[pt_mad]

They are taking the existing paths that were created due to Norton Bridge being finished though right?

 

[The Planner]

I have yet to see conclusively what paths Norton Bridge released/created to be honest.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Well it looks like regardless of the winning company, the return of London, Midland and Scottish Railway as the operator's name is inevitable, with the DfT having filed LMS as a Trademark last November: https://trademarks.ipo.gov.uk/ipo-tmcase/page/Results/1/UK00003270382

London Midland & Scottish Railway brand would fit with HS2 services as well. This list is interesting as I have also seen Great Eastern Railway as well.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I have yet to see conclusively what paths Norton Bridge released/created to be honest.

Best not tell the DfT then, or the NR folk who put up the business case for the funding...
100mph on the slow must have had some benefit though, and services are more reliable without the junction conflict.

 

[The Planner]

There may well be two paths extra, but between where and where could well be the crux. I don't believe they are full long distance Euston ones. Cannot deny the performance and resilliance side though.

 

[driver_m]

There may well be two paths extra, but between where and where could well be the crux. I don't believe they are full long distance Euston ones. Cannot deny the performance and resilliance side though.

Its tons better using the slows now. If we get sent on them we lose very little time now compared to previously if at all on some mainly voyager services. Certainly no eye rolling anymore getting no feather at Basford Hall or Stafford and being kept slow.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Best not tell the DfT then, or the NR folk who put up the business case for the funding...
100mph on the slow must have had some benefit though, and services are more reliable without the junction conflict.

I think the main reason for Norton Bridge Was to increase speed and also allows grade separation which means more services. It allows services towards Manchester to cross the WCML without conflict from the fast services (by Virgin) or south bound slow services.

 

[driver_m]

I think the main reason for Norton Bridge Was to increase speed and also allows grade separation which means more services. It allows services towards Manchester to cross the WCML without conflict from the fast services (by Virgin) or south bound slow services.

It does exactly that. One of the XC trains used to directly clash with two of ours and also an LM service. Also caused a knock to anything behind too. All now gone. No more worrying in autumn about getting two yellows at Mill Meece pumping station either now because the separation has virtually eliminated it. Some of the benefits can't be obviously seen or measured, but they're there. Norton Bridge is one such scheme.

 

[HowardGWR]

It does exactly that. One of the XC trains used to directly clash with two of ours and also an LM service. Also caused a knock to anything behind too. All now gone. No more worrying in autumn about getting two yellows at Mill Meece pumping station either now because the separation has virtually eliminated it. Some of the benefits can't be obviously seen or measured, but they're there. Norton Bridge is one such scheme.

Indeed, the whole point of GSJs on motorways or rail is to avoid crossing conflict. One would expect a 'motorway standard' express railway not to have any at level crossings at all. Essentially, HS2 provides an increase from 4 to 6 'lanes' for the WCML. I can't remember whether that is the case where HS2 bypasses Brum. Hope so.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The VT Blackpool 390s are extra since the grade separation, with the GNWR versions to come.
Nothing new on the Birmingham-Manchester corridor yet, but a bit of acceleration on XC.

 

[6Gman]

Its tons better using the slows now. If we get sent on them we lose very little time now compared to previously if at all on some mainly voyager services. Certainly no eye rolling anymore getting no feather at Basford Hall or Stafford and being kept slow.

On the Desiros Slow Line may actually be faster by avoiding the Doxey crossover.

 

[driver_m]

On the Desiros Slow Line may actually be faster by avoiding the Doxey crossover.

You could be right there. 10mph advantage on the fasts for the best part of about 24 miles, but then getting track approached for Doxey only doing 30mph. LM are booked to run up fast on Sunday so may be worth comparing.

 

[Class 170101]

I can easily see VT pulling out if they are forced to use a none Virgin name... Essentially they only bid to expand their brand.

I thought the DfT said any operator could use their own brand providing if they lost next time around that they paid for the re-branding exercise?

 

[pt_mad]

So what is the current timetable for the refranchising process as things stand? When is the winner likely to be announced?

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

So what is the current timetable for the refranchising process as things stand? When is the winner likely to be announced?

May 2019

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Franchise award for WCP is due "April to May 2019".
Note this is later than the equivalent date for East Midlands, which is "March to April 2019", even though that competition started later than WCP (bids due in this week).

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Railway Gazette is reporting that RENFE of Spain has joined the MTR bid team for the WCP franchise.
Given that the bids have been in for months, this is an odd situation.
Presumably it means that their Chinese high-speed partner (Guangshen) do not give DfT enough confidence on deliverability of their bid.
RENFE has as much high-speed experience as SNCF or Trenitalia in the Virgin/Stagecoach and FirstGroup bids respectively.
It also parallels the presence of Spain's Talgo and CAF in the bidding for the HS2 rolling stock contract.
https://www.railwaygazette.com/news...ins-mtrs-west-coast-partnership-bid-team.html

MTR said that RENFE would bring ‘specific experience of bringing new high speed lines into operation’, reflecting its role as an operating partner for the recently opened Haramain high speed line in Saudi Arabia and the planned Texas Central project in the USA.

 

[KashmireHawker]

That has formally been confirmed, by all parties involved.

They have quite the team and with such money within all three firms, there bid is going to be pretty strong.

https://saladeprensa.renfe.com/renf...ervicio-de-alta-velocidad-hs2-en-reino-unido/

 

[kensal rise]

Railway Gazette is reporting that RENFE of Spain has joined the MTR bid team for the WCP franchise.
Given that the bids have been in for months, this is an odd situation.
Presumably it means that their Chinese high-speed partner (Guangshen) do not give DfT enough confidence on deliverability of their bid.
RENFE has as much high-speed experience as SNCF or Trenitalia in the Virgin/Stagecoach and FirstGroup bids respectively.
It also parallels the presence of Spain's Talgo and CAF in the bidding for the HS2 rolling stock contract.
https://www.railwaygazette.com/news...ins-mtrs-west-coast-partnership-bid-team.html

The timing of the announcement is odd - this was reported in the Spanish press months and months ago well before the bids were submitted

 

[EE Andy b1]

Sounds like Virgin/Stagecoach continue with a direct award of West Coast Franchise until March 2020 with DfT option to terminate award in November 2019.
So no investment continues. 8 years of stagnation by March 2020 and whose to say the DfT don't defer again!

 

[dk1]

Sounds like Virgin/Stagecoach continue with a direct award of West Coast Franchise until March 2020 with DfT option to terminate award in November 2019.
So no investment continues. 8 years of stagnation by March 2020 and whose to say the DfT don't defer again!

Why not just give it to them till HS2 & be done with it? They seem to be doing a good job & passenger numbers are still climbing. Saves all that bidding grief & cost for let's face it what's a very short franchise. I

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why not just give it to them till HS2 & be done with it? They seem to be doing a good job & passenger numbers are still climbing. Saves all that bidding grief & cost for let's face it what's a very short franchise.

That's not a bad point. Even with no big changes/upgrades it is as you say ticking along reasonably well and seems popular with passengers. Not a part of the railway that really needs any faffing about with.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Why not just give it to them till HS2 & be done with it? They seem to be doing a good job & passenger numbers are still climbing. Saves all that bidding grief & cost for let's face it what's a very short franchise. I

That's not a bad point. Even with no big changes/upgrades it is as you say ticking along reasonably well and seems popular with passengers. Not a part of the railway that really needs any faffing about with.

There's also brand identity.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Well to put it simply, you can't make a long direct award to the incumbent, as it's against EU competition rules.
That's why VT have had a succession of 2-year do-nothing awards.
DfT then chose to link the new franchise to the startup of HS2, while at the same time denying the operator any real say on HS2 services.
They also want a new flavour on the West Coast, even if the Virgin/Stagecoach bid wins (SNCF would also play an active part).
First and MTR and their partners would also kick up a stink if DfT pulled the competition after all the bids were in (and DfT would have to repay their bid costs)l.

 

[HH]

First and MTR and their partners would also kick up a stink if DfT pulled the competition after all the bids were in (and DfT would have to repay their bid costs)l.

I think "kick up a stink" would be a very mild reaction. DfT would be very worried about the words "Judicial Review"; so worried that they would never contemplate such an action as pulling the competition, unless they had a very, very good reason.