West Coast weather warning to and from Scotland for Friday 30/12/2022

[Lewisham2221]

Update - apparently the M74 is open and has been passable since around midnight, so the “can’t provide road transport” thing is just looking sasarcastic

Just because the motorway is open, doesn't mean they can provide road transport.

Some years ago, I was involved on a job where Arrivs Trains Wales had cancelled the last train Crewe-Cardiff due to flooding. We weren't on the books as a rail replacement provider for ATW at the time, but everybody else had refused the job and industry contacts had pointed them in our direction. Even we refused the job initially, but they called back begging. The boss gave them a ridiculous quote and to his surprise they accepted. So out came the boss to do the job, dragging me (armed with road atlas and list of stations) along to assist. We didn't even have a coach to do the job, so at some time around midnight we rocked up at Crewe in a rather elderly service bus, complete with bench type bus seats, extremely limited luggage capacity, no toilet etc etc. Just getting to Shrewsbury was a nightmare as 3/4 of the way there, the road was closed due to flooding, requiring a lengthy diversion. The same thing occurred between other stations en route. We eventually arrived at (I think) Abergavenny at around 8am, spotted a train in the platform, confirmed with the guard that it was going to Cardiff, and chucked the rest of our passengers onto the train so we could head back home.

I wouldn't be surprised if, throwing New Years Eve into the equation, Avanti would struggle to get someone to accept the job.

 

[Huntergreed]

Is anyone able to confirm.

Does issuing a “do not travel” notice absolve TOC’s of their responsibility to provide (at their expense) meals, hotel accommodation (where possible) and alternative means of transport under regulation 1371/2007, and as outline in the NRCOT?

Heard mixed views so would be helpful to know the official stance.

 

[The Prisoner]

Revised two hourly Carlisle - Euston services are unbelievably maintaining their stopping patterns leaving Oxenholme and Penrith without a service south of Preston for four hour gaps. Passengers being advised to travel north to Carlisle and change there to go south.

Just when you think they can’t get any worse. Unusable in any form.

 

[Class15]

Revised two hourly Carlisle - Euston services are unbelievably maintaining their stopping patterns leaving Oxenholme and Penrith without a service south of Preston for four hour gaps. Passengers being advised to travel north to Carlisle and change there to go south.

Just when you think they can’t get any worse. Unusable in any form.

That’s mad. I do feel sorry for people trying to get to/from Oxenholme or Penrith!

 

[Huntergreed]

Revised two hourly Carlisle - Euston services are unbelievably maintaining their stopping patterns leaving Oxenholme and Penrith without a service south of Preston for four hour gaps. Passengers being advised to travel north to Carlisle and change there to go south.

Just when you think they can’t get any worse. Unusable in any form.

That’s absolutely ridiculous.

Avanti really could do with getting out of their habit of terminating everything short at Preston if anything happens no matter how far north.

It feels like, were the points just outside Glasgow Central to fail, they would turn everything around at Preston. It’s as if Carlisle - Preston doesn’t matter!

 

[43066]

How much does it cost to arrange ticket acceptance?

If LNER are struggling to accommodate their own passengers they may simply refuse it, hence it might not be an option.

 

[Class15]

That’s absolutely ridiculous.

Avanti really could do with getting out of their habit of terminating everything short at Preston if anything happens no matter how far north.

It feels like, were the points just outside Glasgow Central to fail, they would turn everything around at Preston. It’s as if Carlisle - Preston doesn’t matter!

Could a reason for this be the crew changes at Preston.
(I’m not trying to say that Avanti’s appalling service is good, but maybe there is a reason)

 

[Peter0124]

According to RTT/Tiger Worldline. It looks like the Shotts line is running with 7 car trains, is this a first or an error?

EDIT -- Is now formed of 4 coaches, so must have been an error.

 

[Class15]

If LNER are struggling to accommodate their own passengers they may simply refuse it, hence it might not be an option.

So now both LNER and Avanti are struggling - on the day after the sleepers got cancelled.

I was cancelled on Caledonian Sleeper on the 19th July, and it took me two further days to get to Inverness.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Dec 2022 ==

Looks like the Shotts line is running with 7 car trains, is this a first?

Is there a service reduction?

 

[92002]

No ticket acceptance with LNER, no alternative road transport. Lots of people who were told to wait til today being told not to travel, having booked hotels yesterday.

I’m trying to get from Penrith to Chester today with children and a dog. Currently no direct train to Warrington or Crewe showing between 1303 and 1703 (we were booked on the 1423). Despite cancelling 2/3 services through Cumbria a potential 1503 is sailing through Penrith without stopping.

I am done with Avanti. This is an abdication of responsibility. You can’t just say “Do not travel” and wash your hands of it all.

Update - apparently the M74 is open and has been passable since around midnight, so the “can’t provide road transport” thing is just looking sarcastic

TPE Were running buses as far as Lockerbie today.

The fist 3 Sourhbound Avanti were cancelled. A number were cancelled last night. So presumably a shortage of trains or crew in the wrong Place.

 

[M&NEJ]

Could a reason for this be the crew changes at Preston.
(I’m not trying to say that Avanti’s appalling service is good, but maybe there is a reason)

It is because of the crew change at Preston. But any closure north of Preston, whether a tree down at Penrith, flooding near Lockerbie or wires down on Beattock, leaves Lancaster (and often Carlisle) cut off from the rest of the network. Northern appear to have cancelled air-brushed out several services yesterday and TransPennine are hap-hazard at the best of times. That left a 3-hour gap in service between Lancaster and Preston in yesterday's morning peak, all for want of a few staff going an extra 20 miles and back.

I don't believe Lancaster should lose out every time there's an incident north of the border, just to suit Avanti's choice of change-over station. Does Preston - Euston route knowledge end at Preston station or is there some "overlap", e.g. signing for the south WCML means you can drive or conduct as far north as Carnforth loops? There should be much more flexibility in Avanti's arrangements!

I know there are efficiency and practical advantages in Avanti's approach; but the customer loses out to a ridiculous extent in this case. It's time the problem was recognised!

 

[Huntergreed]

Twitter doesn’t look good.

Avanti basically telling people there’s nothing they can do. Trains will not run, Ticket Acceptance won’t be arranged, alternatives won’t be provided, tickets won’t be valid on 2nd January.

Theoretically, are we looking at a breach of contract law here? Appreciate the line closing and buses not running is outwith their control, but refusing any provisions whatsoever and suggesting nothing but a refund (it certainly isn’t the case that hotels “aren’t available”, plenty going in Glasgow and Carlisle from my search!) seems like negligence on their responsibility, especially when people who are stranded also tried to travel yesterday.

I found one case on twitter where Avanti sent someone to Newcastle, telling them to use LNER, then LNER refused acceptance and Northern wouldn’t accept their ticket back to Carlisle.

 

[43066]

Twitter doesn’t look good.

Avanti basically telling people there’s nothing they can do. Trains will not run, Ticket Acceptance won’t be arranged, alternatives won’t be provided, tickets won’t be valid on 2nd January.

Theoretically, are we looking at a breach of contract law here? Appreciate the line closing and buses not running is outwith their control, but refusing any provisions whatsoever and suggesting nothing but a refund (it certainly isn’t the case that hotels “aren’t available”, plenty going in Glasgow and Carlisle from my search!) seems like negligence on their responsibility, especially when people who are stranded also tried to travel yesterday.

I found one case on twitter where Avanti sent someone to Newcastle, telling them to use LNER, then LNER refused acceptance and Northern wouldn’t accept their ticket back to Carlisle.

It might be a breach of the theoretical “absolute” obligations under the NRCOT. Whether it’s would be a breach of contract law separate to this is a slightly different question.

If LNER refuse ticket acceptance and there are no buses available, what can they realistically do? Hotels possibly.

Personally I would be making my own arrangements and looking to claim back.

 

[DanNCL]

I think without a shadow of a doubt, from how it appears from the outside anyway, contract law has likely been breached here by both Avanti and TPE in refusing to provide anything to those who have to travel North of Preston today.

First port of call should be ticket acceptance. I can see why LNER would refuse, they've had more than their fair share of issues the last two days, both with the weather and with a failed 91 causing trouble for much of yesterday leaving staff and crew out of place. However, could XC have been in a position to help out? I'm not sure.

With the ticket acceptance route exhausted, next port of call should be replacement buses. With roads also suffering from the weather, and with it being New Year's Eve, again I can see why none of the coach companies can provide replacement transport.

So the next option which should have been provided by Avanti and TPE and clearly hasn't been is hotels until such a time that they can get people to their destination.

If passengers grouped together in taking legal action against Avanti and TPE over this, the two TOCs would likely find themselves in very deep **** with the courts.

 

[Class15]

It is because of the crew change at Preston. But any closure north of Preston, whether a tree down at Penrith, flooding near Lockerbie or wires down on Beattock, leaves Lancaster (and often Carlisle) cut off from the rest of the network. Northern appear to have cancelled air-brushed out several services yesterday and TransPennine are hap-hazard at the best of times. That left a 3-hour gap in service between Lancaster and Preston in yesterday's morning peak, all for want of a few staff going an extra 20 miles and back.

I don't believe Lancaster should lose out every time there's an incident north of the border, just to suit Avanti's choice of change-over station. Does Preston - Euston route knowledge end at Preston station or is there some "overlap", e.g. signing for the south WCML means you can drive or conduct as far north as Carnforth loops? There should be much more flexibility in Avanti's arrangements!

I know there are efficiency and practical advantages in Avanti's approach; but the customer loses out to a ridiculous extent in this case. It's time the problem was recognised!

Twitter doesn’t look good.

Avanti basically telling people there’s nothing they can do. Trains will not run, Ticket Acceptance won’t be arranged, alternatives won’t be provided, tickets won’t be valid on 2nd January.

Theoretically, are we looking at a breach of contract law here? Appreciate the line closing and buses not running is outwith their control, but refusing any provisions whatsoever and suggesting nothing but a refund (it certainly isn’t the case that hotels “aren’t available”, plenty going in Glasgow and Carlisle from my search!) seems like negligence on their responsibility, especially when people who are stranded also tried to travel yesterday.

I found one case on twitter where Avanti sent someone to Newcastle, telling them to use LNER, then LNER refused acceptance and Northern wouldn’t accept their ticket back to Carlisle.

And this is why you don’t travel on the WCML these days… (other than LNWR who seem to have a bit of sense)

 

[The Prisoner]

I know the press have picked up on various Avanti stories, but this is probably the worst. There are people abandoned in hotels they have had to pay for at their own expense (and at Avanti’s advice - yesterday - they were saying travel before midday today this time yesterday) and have been ex-communicated today.

Now they are being told their tickets are no longer valid and should be refunded (thus avoiding conditions of carriage?) and to buy new tickets, which are frequently far more expensive than the advance ticket held.

https://twitter.com/avantiwestcoast/status/1609107510329319426?s=46&t=9OvpWlWQxDGM6OmYfwPkEQ

Plenty more of those on the thread.

An abject and utter disgrace.

Yes I know the land slip is out of their control, and accept the motorway was flooded yesterday, but today’s response from them is abysmal. There will be vulnerable people, families and the elderly simply abandoned en route in large numbers.

 

[Class15]

I know the press have picked up on various Avanti stories, but this is probably the worst. There are people abandoned in hotels they have had to pay for at their own expense (and at Avanti’s advice - yesterday - they were saying travel before midday today this time yesterday) and have been ex-communicated today.

Now they are being told their tickets are no longer valid and should be refunded (thus avoiding conditions of carriage?) and to buy new tickets, which are frequently far more expensive than the advance ticket held.

https://twitter.com/avantiwestcoast/status/1609107510329319426?s=46&t=9OvpWlWQxDGM6OmYfwPkEQ

Plenty more of those on the thread.

An abject and utter disgrace.

Yes I know the land slip is out of their control, and accept the motorway was flooded yesterday, but today’s response from them is abysmal. There will be vulnerable people, families and the elderly simply abandoned en route in large numbers.

Surely the Oxenholme incident was worse?

 

[The Prisoner]

Surely the Oxenholme incident was worse?

Take your pick! Avanti…..setting the bar lower every week.

 

[Ex-controller]

According to RTT/Tiger Worldline. It looks like the Shotts line is running with 7 car trains, is this a first or an error?

EDIT -- Is now formed of 4 coaches, so must have been an error.

6 car maximum on the Shotts line.

 

[py_megapixel]

If LNER refuse ticket acceptance and there are no buses available, what can they realistically do?

At the very least, they could offer to refund people if they buy their own ticket to travel via the east coast (or even just send someone out to buy a load of suitable tickets from a ticket office and hand them out to stranded passengers).

There's even people on Twitter being told that they won't be allowed to travel on Avanti's own trains later in the week. Usually when there's disruption bad enough for a train company to start saying "Do Not Travel", they are pretty much begging people to postpone their journeys

Refunding and buying a new ticket might be fine if you've paid a walk-up fare, but a lot of people will be travelling on cheaper tickets and will have no chance of re-booking at anything near the same price. I imagine at least some people will be left substantially out of pocket from this. (I also couldn't blame anyone who decided to just board a train with their technically invalid ticket and see what happens, though I wouldn't advocate it myself).

It does make me quite disappointed to see the way some people are acting on Twitter, though. People will be stressed and also angry with the company, and it is understandable that this comes through in what people are writing. However, directing insults towards members of customer service staff (who largely have no part in this, and are just relaying messages) is just downright unpleasant.

 

[Ex-controller]

Twitter doesn’t look good.

Avanti basically telling people there’s nothing they can do. Trains will not run, Ticket Acceptance won’t be arranged, alternatives won’t be provided, tickets won’t be valid on 2nd January.

Theoretically, are we looking at a breach of contract law here? Appreciate the line closing and buses not running is outwith their control, but refusing any provisions whatsoever and suggesting nothing but a refund (it certainly isn’t the case that hotels “aren’t available”, plenty going in Glasgow and Carlisle from my search!) seems like negligence on their responsibility, especially when people who are stranded also tried to travel yesterday.

I found one case on twitter where Avanti sent someone to Newcastle, telling them to use LNER, then LNER refused acceptance and Northern wouldn’t accept their ticket back to Carlisle.

That’s terrible. At the very least tickets should be made valid on the next full service day.

 

[Skiddaw]

I found one case on twitter where Avanti sent someone to Newcastle, telling them to use LNER, then LNER refused acceptance and Northern wouldn’t accept their ticket back to Carlisle.

They were definitely telling people that yesterday morning at Carlisle- I personally heard them make an announcement to that effect.

 

[The Prisoner]

That’s absolutely ridiculous.

Avanti really could do with getting out of their habit of terminating everything short at Preston if anything happens no matter how far north.

It feels like, were the points just outside Glasgow Central to fail, they would turn everything around at Preston. It’s as if Carlisle - Preston doesn’t matter!

They have just added an oxenholme stop in to the 1248 from Carlisle to plug that gap. No Penrith stop yet added to the 1449.

Why do it with an hour to go? Is everyone on leave today?

 

[Class15]

I think Avanti are trying to cut the WCML at Preston.

 

[Moonshot]

I was on 2 Avanti services yesterday..... absolutely nothing wrong with them. Got me there and got me back.

 

[JamieL]

I was on 2 Avanti services yesterday..... absolutely nothing wrong with them. Got me there and got me back.

Which ones?

 

[Class15]

I was on 2 Avanti services yesterday..... absolutely nothing wrong with them. Got me there and got me back.

Then you are one of 0.00000001% of passengers.

 

[Soundwave]

For what it's worth, I think around one train an hour of some sort (either Avanti or TPE) to/from Carlisle stopping at Penrith and/or Oxenholme heading South is appropriate given the likely numbers that are boarding only at Carlisle, and the Lakes. If there were connecting buses from Edinburgh/Glasgow, that is another matter.

 

[P Binnersley]

Replacement coaches operating Glasgow-Carlisle (I'm on one). G&SW via Dumfries is also closed.

Glasgow Central - Edinburgh trains rammed and turning passengers away.

 

[londonmidland]

LNER ARE now accepting Avanti West Coast tickets between Edinburgh and London.

As for why most services are being spun round at Preston, and cannot continue on to Carlisle, it’s because of train crew issues.