West Midlands Trains (LNR route) Guards doing more ticket checks?

[Bletchleyite]

Have noted of late more LNR guards checking tickets than usual.

Have they been offered commission per scan or a similar scheme? If so it's working.

 

[800001]

Have noted of late more LNR guards checking tickets than usual.

Have they been offered commission per scan or a similar scheme? If so it's working.

They don’t get paid per scan.
They get 10% commission on daily sales of more than £200, and 5% for sales of less than £200 per day.

 

[185]

Some get this (ex Silverlink)

They don’t get paid per scan.
They get 10% commission on daily sales of more than £200, and 5% for sales of less than £200 per day.

Others are on 4% or 1% (ex Central)

Noone at WMT - LNR or WMR gets a per scan payment, that's only at Northern, however I think it's a good thing..

In the late 90s, the foolish, dopey mentality of "but they get paid to do that" no commission led to guards checking about three tickets per shift, and contractually there wasn't much the company could do about it in law.

Offering an incentive is about striking a balance, not enough equals diddly squat revenue... offer too much like GNER did, and you create a monster.

Adding 1-2p a scan isn't unreasonable and rewards the harder workers with £3 - nearly enough for a cappuccino per day, something that FirstGroup's TPE refused ...and many strike days ensued.

 

[RPI]

I believe that Hew Merriman has gone to all TOC's raising concerns about attitudes towards revenue protection in general, from a good but anonymous source.

 

[Russel]

Adding 1-2p a scan isn't unreasonable and rewards the harder workers with £3 - nearly enough for a cappuccino per day, something that FirstGroup's TPE refused ...and many strike days ensued.

Striking over £3 per day? That can't be serious, right?

I believe that Hew Merriman has gone to all TOC's raising concerns about attitudes towards revenue protection in general, from a good but anonymous source.

Good, it should have happened a long time ago, a lot of guards have forgotten that revenue protection is part of their job. They want a pay rise with no changes to T&Cs to pay for it yet aren't willing to do something which could help their cause!

 

[MP393]

Noone at WMT - LNR or WMR gets a per scan payment, that's only at Northern, however I think it's a good thing..

Not just Northern… TfW get 2p per ticket scan too

 

[185]

Striking over £3 per day? That can't be serious, right?

Yep. That was caused by a certain FirstGroup finance director's belief that - who cares if the revenue comes in? It's not our money, why should we pay commission on it?

Long before these strikes, the company were pushing more staff to scan tickets (which technically is not an agreed method with the union, nor is it in their contract of employment). Most were, until the union raised the point that ticket sales onboard had dwindled to zero due to barriers, RPIs, PFs and guards checking 70-85% of trains and the loss of commission wasn't being addressed coupled with no pay rise in three years. TPE flatly refused, and heavily reduced Sat & Sunday services were regular before the current strike - all due to a refusal to pay £3. Well, FirstGroup departed, not before time.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

They don’t get paid per scan.
They get 10% commission on daily sales of more than £200, and 5% for sales of less than £200 per day.

I wish! Our depot is 4% of WMT fares

 

[800001]

I wish! Our depot is 4% of WMT fares

Just what I’ve been told by my friend who is a guard based at Northampton.

 

[Kite159]

Makes a change from the guard hiding away in the middle cab (sometimes with the inter-unit gangway doors locked so those pesky passengers can't change units) with certain routes being very much pay only when challenged.

 

[alex17595]

It would certainly help if the barriers at Euston actually got used. Don't think I've seen them on apart from when we went into P10.

 

[Kite159]

It would certainly help if the barriers at Euston actually got used. Don't think I've seen them on apart from when we went into P10.

Remember only some of the platforms at Euston are barriered, quite often LNR services get put into one of the unbarriered platforms.

And even when they go into the barriered platforms, it's a gamble for those whom think payment is optional (i.e. travelling from say Leighton Buzzard or one of the other unbarriered stations on the WCML) if they will need to pay.

 

[Andrew1395]

Not seen any ticket checks at all on my LNR trains. Guards have virtually given up doing PA announcements too. Even trains from platform 12 never have a ticket check.

 

[Merseysider]

Gone from Brum up to Liverpool and back tonight. No ticket checks.

Went from Brum down to London and back on the weekend. No ticket checks.

Embarrassing to say that National Express West Midlands are more proactive with revenue - been checked three times in a week on the buses.

No wonder there's such a 'pay when challenged' mentality on LNR's routes.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Makes a change from the guard hiding away in the middle cab (sometimes with the inter-unit gangway doors locked so those pesky passengers can't change units) with certain routes being very much pay only when challenged.

It stuck me as odd that I not infrequently encounter inter-unit doors locked when the trains are mostly 8 car all day. You've hit on the reason - helps the conductor to have a quiet life.

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As far as announcements go, usually nothing when train is delayed.
In my experience, LNwR conductors often walk up and down the train without checking tickets. Can't understand why, unless it's to appear on the CCTV.
But very recently I've seen groups of three staff inspecting tickets and issuing excesses, not the conductor, but dressed in a black LNwR uniform. They seem to find a lot of passengers without a valid ticket.

But, to be fair, there are a few conductors who do a thorough job (check tickets, make useful announcements) - the same few!

 

[Mzzzs]

Should this be part of the job of being a guard? Doing ticket checks when possible and safe

 

[RHolmes]

Yep. That was caused by a certain FirstGroup finance director's belief that - who cares if the revenue comes in? It's not our money, why should we pay commission on it?

Long before these strikes, the company were pushing more staff to scan tickets (which technically is not an agreed method with the union, nor is it in their contract of employment). Most were, until the union raised the point that ticket sales onboard had dwindled to zero due to barriers, RPIs, PFs and guards checking 70-85% of trains and the loss of commission wasn't being addressed coupled with no pay rise in three years. TPE flatly refused, and heavily reduced Sat & Sunday services were regular before the current strike - all due to a refusal to pay £3. Well, FirstGroup departed, not before time.

In fairness the TPE Sunday strikes wasn’t just in regards to scanning but productivity in general including overtime payments made for RDW and overtime after the previous deal ended but the requirement for voluntary overtime increased ten-fold during the various stages and phases of Covid

It would also be fair to mention for balance the First Group TPE productivity deal that was proposed and rejected by TPE staff late 2019/Early 2020 included payment for scanning in exchange for reduced commission

 

[Silverlinky]

It stuck me as odd that I not infrequently encounter inter-unit doors locked when the trains are mostly 8 car all day. You've hit on the reason - helps the conductor to have a quiet life.

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As far as announcements go, usually nothing when train is delayed.
In my experience, LNwR conductors often walk up and down the train without checking tickets. Can't understand why, unless it's to appear on the CCTV.
But very recently I've seen groups of three staff inspecting tickets and issuing excesses, not the conductor, but dressed in a black LNwR uniform. They seem to find a lot of passengers without a valid ticket.

But, to be fair, there are a few conductors who do a thorough job (check tickets, make useful announcements) - the same few!

I do think LNWR have stepped up their revenue protection as I too have seen the RPI's (they are the ones in the blue/black with bodycams) checking tickets and issuing penalty fares both on trains and at stations. I've also noticed increased BTP presence at station barriers too. Some conductors i'm sure do revenue as a matter of course, its part of their job after all and you'd think that they would want to do all they could to protect their jobs in these uncertain times. DCO or even DOO is bound to raise its head again in the near future, their new trains will be equipped to operate in that way if necessary.

As for the middle doors, yes i've noticed that too. Surely this would not be company policy? Whats the use of having gangwayed units if the gangway is closed off? I would also expect gangwayed units pointing passengers to certain exits or towards the other unit if there was a fire or an accident? Imagine following the signs and coming up against locked doors.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

It stuck me as odd that I not infrequently encounter inter-unit doors locked when the trains are mostly 8 car all day. You've hit on the reason - helps the conductor to have a quiet life.

---------------------------

As far as announcements go, usually nothing when train is delayed.
In my experience, LNwR conductors often walk up and down the train without checking tickets. Can't understand why, unless it's to appear on the CCTV.
But very recently I've seen groups of three staff inspecting tickets and issuing excesses, not the conductor, but dressed in a black LNwR uniform. They seem to find a lot of passengers without a valid ticket.

But, to be fair, there are a few conductors who do a thorough job (check tickets, make useful announcements) - the same few!

There can be legitimate reasons for the gang ways being closed, often when having a ride out it is done as you can't fit more than 1 person in the cab when doors are in the open gangway position. The only other time to lock out the gangway is for extra space when cashing up. All other times it is expected to be available to passengers.

Revenue is very depot specific, you will find less staff doing revenue in the evenings on certain routes due to a broken safe at one depot meaning machines have to be back prior to 10pm (or the break prior) due to cash regulations.

There has been more RPIs recruited, and the company is pushing this side hard. As a minimum you should see a conductor scanning once per journey, so it's only if you do the full trip that you should definitely be checked.

As for walking through but not selling tickets, again as per above. Guards may not have a machine (or a faulty one), so the emphasis is then on being visible if possible and checking the train for antisocial behavior, train faults etc.

There was a new guide for announcements this year which the first point on the 'Do Not' page was 'duplicate automated announcements' so other than mandatory, UDS and delay announcements we are meant to leave it to the train to do.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Should this be part of the job of being a guard? Doing ticket checks when possible and safe

It is, but most Bletchley guards are traditionally too lazy to bother. Only 3-4 of them (who you recognised as such) tended to bother.

There was a new guide for announcements this year which the first point on the 'Do Not' page was 'duplicate automated announcements' so other than mandatory, UDS and delay announcements we are meant to leave it to the train to do.

Good, I've always found guards talking over the autoannouncers really quite annoying, and it's bad for accessbility too.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

It is, but most Bletchley guards are traditionally too lazy to bother. Only 3-4 of them (who you recognised as such) tended to bother.



Good, I've always found guards talking over the autoannouncers really quite annoying, and it's bad for accessbility too.

Whether any staff follow the guide is another matter obviously.

Things may change once these individual stats card start being rolled out. Managers should be challenging non-compliance.

There's no need to be constantly walking through, but once per train really isn’t that hard most of the time

 

[sk688]

Noticed an uptick in LNWR revenue protection recently , barriers closed at Euston and Watford Junction for far longer , as opposed to it's usual practice of being open 90% of the time

Barriers at Watford also set to reject railcard discounted tickets etc etc

Also had ticket checks between Kings Langley and Watford , which rarely, if ever happens

 

[Russel]

Not seen any ticket checks at all on my LNR trains. Guards have virtually given up doing PA announcements too. Even trains from platform 12 never have a ticket check.

In regards to PA announcements, in my experience of the Trent Valley services, I've noticed the opposite, a lot of guards seem to thrive on repeating every auto announcement, it's actually rather irritating.

 

[wildcard]

Not exactly a ticket check - but a couple of days ago I was asked to show my ticket to a couple of LNR uniformed youngsters doing a ticket survey. I had a paper travelcard , the young lady waved what looked like an oversized phone in its direction . I assume she took a photo . The only question she asked was the purpose of my trip - work , business or leisure . That was it . What struck me was their age - both looked under 20 , maybe college students or YTS . The check was on a quiet mid afternoon train to London but I would be concerned if they had met an argumentative or ticketless passenger . Both were wearing hijabs - which should be irrelevant but mentioned anyway.

 

[GWVillager]

If guards are paid by scan, what happens with paper tickets?

 

[CharlieSpotted]

I'm not sure if I'm seeing more checks on trains, but what I have noticed lately on several occasions are people in front of the gatelines at Wolverhampton, scanning QR code tickets using mobile devices before you can pass through the gates. I had thought this was a bit redundant (yes, I know barriers don't do all restrictions, railcards etc) but if they're getting paid per scan..

 

[Kite159]

If guards are paid by scan, what happens with paper tickets?

If it's like Northern, some look at you with disgust at not getting their scan commission.

@CharlieSpotted I suspect that's more down to checking for railcards, checking purchase time and where the ticket was purchased from. Ie if someone comes up with a ticket from Coseley* and there hasn't been a stopper for 20odd minutes it can be challenged (*assuming Coseley - Wolverhampton is the cheapest fare for doughnuters to bypass the barriers)

 

[JW4]

It would certainly help if the barriers at Euston actually got used. Don't think I've seen them on apart from when we went into P10.

Platform 11 on Monday. Didn’t let me through with my ticket tho so staff had to

On the WMR Cross-City Line ticket checks have started to happen around Gravelly Hill on some services out of Birmingham.

If it's like Northern, some look at you with disgust at not getting their scan commission.

@CharlieSpotted I suspect that's more down to checking for railcards, checking purchase time and where the ticket was purchased from. Ie if someone comes up with a ticket from Coseley* and there hasn't been a stopper for 20odd minutes it can be challenged (*assuming Coseley - Wolverhampton is the cheapest fare for doughnuters to bypass the barriers)

Coseley is £2.90
Bilbrook, Tipton £3

 

[SCDR_WMR]

In regards to PA announcements, in my experience of the Trent Valley services, I've noticed the opposite, a lot of guards seem to thrive on repeating every auto announcement, it's actually rather irritating.

There are mandatory announcements to be made at Crewe, Rugeley, Lichfield, Tamworth, Atherstone and Nuneaton..... Doesn't leave many that you don't have to repeat unfortunately

Not exactly a ticket check - but a couple of days ago I was asked to show my ticket to a couple of LNR uniformed youngsters doing a ticket survey. I had a paper travelcard , the young lady waved what looked like an oversized phone in its direction . I assume she took a photo . The only question she asked was the purpose of my trip - work , business or leisure . That was it . What struck me was their age - both looked under 20 , maybe college students or YTS . The check was on a quiet mid afternoon train to London but I would be concerned if they had met an argumentative or ticketless passenger . Both were wearing hijabs - which should be irrelevant but mentioned anyway.

Ticketless travel survey, nothing more, nothing less. And absolutely no need to mention the hijabs at all!

I'm not sure if I'm seeing more checks on trains, but what I have noticed lately on several occasions are people in front of the gatelines at Wolverhampton, scanning QR code tickets using mobile devices before you can pass through the gates. I had thought this was a bit redundant (yes, I know barriers don't do all restrictions, railcards etc) but if they're getting paid per scan..

Nobody at WMT gets paid per scan, it's to catch out short farers and railcards

 

[MP393]

Two “Surveyors” checking peoples tickets on the 21:32 out of Liverpool - Birmingham this evening. A haven for fare evasion, in fact almost everybody else in my carriage has no ticket to show, or an excuse.. they’ve all been directed to speak to the conductor, not that he can do much, it’s almost unenforceable when it’s the whole train!