West Yorkshire Bus Franchising to go ahead

[Leeds1970]

The reason West Yorkshire is following the Manchester model, is because Manchester has gone through the whole legal process of objections etc from bus companies/operators/owners etc so there would be very limited grounds for court appeals in west Yorks as virtually everything that could be argued has been and resolved.

With regards to infrastructure: Bramley is life expired and requires a vast amount of money to bring it up to modern standards & Hunslet (which was adapted from being a printing works was) originally only meant to be temporary -- the plan was to replace both a big purpose built super depot on the Cross Green industrial park. Most of the other West Yorks depots are either old or not in great shape so would also require either substantial investment or relocation to new build.

With regard to enhanced partnerships, these are usually just gentleman's agreements and not always legally binding so are not really any good for the customer. For instance -- we said we will run every ten mins with new buses after 6 months becomes every 20 mins with second hand wrecks from elsewhere.

 

[TUC]

Rail franchising and other public sector procurements do not suggest government bodies, national or local , are very good at doing them well.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Rail franchising and other public sector procurements do not suggest government bodies, national or local , are very good at doing them well.

But equally commercial bus operation in the UK mostly doesn't indicate that commercial bus operation does very much well, either. There are exceptions, but it's mostly utterly mediocre. Can you blame people for a desire to at least try a different model?

 

[asw22]

Let's look at the effectively nationalised Northern Rail - strikes, delays, cancellations - I have at least one journey per week where I have to take the bus instead or I'm more than an hour late.

Then I look at Transdev, an arm's length subsidiary of the French sovereign wealth fund.
They have their faults but every time that the trains have packed up for the day sometimes as early as 7am, Transdev have got me there.

First Bus are more mixed as I have had occasions of 45 minute waits on a 15 minute frequency, but on other times they've run to time.

My main worry is that if staff have to TUPE to another operator, due to franchising, that they don't like then they'll leave en masse. And drivers work unsociable hours so finding replacements won't be easy so I expect a lot of cancelled services and disruption as a result.

Then what about industrial disputes? We saw how bad the bus strikes were in Wakefield and surrounding areas last year. Now imagine if that had been the whole of West Yorkshire, and it had coincided with an ASLEF / RMT strike. This can and will happen, look at the recent bus strikes in Birmingham, and North east. Franchising could spread strike action to all operators in the area rather than the major one.

I've worked in both the private and government sector with noticeably different cultures, in general private companies achieve the same results with fewer resources, although the bad ones manage decline.

Historically, bus and train services were started by small private companies, which grew (mainly by mergers) to become the big bus and train groups - nationalisation only came along in the 1940s and 1960s some 100 years after the first railway and 50 years after the early bus companies.

At present the mayor is trying to grow travel with the £2 single £4.50 day tickets. This is good ... until the money runs out, aka British Rail in 1950s and 1960s, or maybe through a change of government in 2029 or 2034. And can meagre bus companies compete for funds when there's the NHS, housing, schools, RAAC,social care, .....?

How are we to grow passenger use? Is Mr Mercedes or Ms Vauxhall going to walk past their car to the bus stop, wait for what seems like ages, then sit on a bus in traffic? No.
Unless they see the bus glide past them in bus lanes and through traffic light priority, then they might.

In my mind I think franchising is a foregone conclusion and also that this could be bad for bus services.
I would much rather the WYITA work with operators under a cap and collar agreement, where each party shares 50% of profit / loss in exchange for bus priority and only go for franchising in areas where this fails Then the ones who care about their business don't lose it because some of the others in the area misbehave.

 

[markymark2000]

My main worry is that if staff have to TUPE to another operator, due to franchising, that they don't like then they'll leave en masse.

Exactly like happened in Manchester which meant that hundreds of agency staff had to get brought in.

 

[Deerfold]

Let's look at the effectively nationalised Northern Rail - strikes, delays, cancellations - I have at least one journey per week where I have to take the bus instead or I'm more than an hour late.

Effectively nationalised, but having been in the private sector for a long time - with training backlogs that take a long time to correct.

Then I look at Transdev, an arm's length subsidiary of the French sovereign wealth fund.
They have their faults but every time that the trains have packed up for the day sometimes as early as 7am, Transdev have got me there.

That sounds like Transdev Keighley and Harrogate, but not Team Pennine - I've family live in their area and they're still seeing regular cancellations on hourly routes.

First Bus are more mixed as I have had occasions of 45 minute waits on a 15 minute frequency, but on other times they've run to time.

I'm catching them less often than I used to due to their massive frequency cuts making it easier to use other operators for some of my journeys, and I could be unlucky, but I almost always wait longer than the gap there's supposed to be between buses on their higher frequency routes.

My main worry is that if staff have to TUPE to another operator, due to franchising, that they don't like then they'll leave en masse. And drivers work unsociable hours so finding replacements won't be easy so I expect a lot of cancelled services and disruption as a result.

Then what about industrial disputes? We saw how bad the bus strikes were in Wakefield and surrounding areas last year. Now imagine if that had been the whole of West Yorkshire, and it had coincided with an ASLEF / RMT strike. This can and will happen, look at the recent bus strikes in Birmingham, and North east. Franchising could spread strike action to all operators in the area rather than the major one.

This can happen with or without franchising. There's no franchising in Birmingham and the North East. Presumably each operator still has its own terms and conditions. If they're all poor, you may get everyone striking, just as without franchising.

I've worked in both the private and government sector with noticeably different cultures, in general private companies achieve the same results with fewer resources, although the bad ones manage decline.

Historically, bus and train services were started by small private companies, which grew (mainly by mergers) to become the big bus and train groups - nationalisation only came along in the 1940s and 1960s some 100 years after the first railway and 50 years after the early bus companies.

At present the mayor is trying to grow travel with the £2 single £4.50 day tickets. This is good ... until the money runs out, aka British Rail in 1950s and 1960s, or maybe through a change of government in 2029 or 2034. And can meagre bus companies compete for funds when there's the NHS, housing, schools, RAAC,social care, .....?

Rail nationalisation origninally was to prevent the companies going bankrupt.

BR in the 80s ran far more mileage per £m (after accounting for inflation) than is run now.

How are we to grow passenger use? Is Mr Mercedes or Ms Vauxhall going to walk past their car to the bus stop, wait for what seems like ages, then sit on a bus in traffic? No.
Unless they see the bus glide past them in bus lanes and through traffic light priority, then they might.

Bus priority is essential, with or without franchising - and we're not very good at that in this country. And the decisions about it are often taken at a different level to transport planning.

In my mind I think franchising is a foregone conclusion and also that this could be bad for bus services.
I would much rather the WYITA work with operators under a cap and collar agreement, where each party shares 50% of profit / loss in exchange for bus priority and only go for franchising in areas where this fails Then the ones who care about their business don't lose it because some of the others in the area misbehave.

Is that an option legally? What happens if other operators are attracted to the new infrastructure and run lots more buses, but that's unsustainable and everyone makes a loss despite an increase in passenger numbers?

 

[asw22]

Thank you some good points. Mostly Transdev Keighley's 60, sometimes Harrogate 7 and 36 though the 36 can have big gaps around 3 to 4 pm some days probably due to traffic.

Sorry by foregone conclusion, I mean that I think more responses will be received in favour of franchising than those against.

In a cap and collar WYITA specifies an agreed service level based on demand to prevent under / over bussing on a rolling basis, but the ownership remains with the existing operator. Or maybe more formally like the 1980s Metro NBC joint company to maximise private sector investment which would otherwise be at risk under a , say 7 year, franchise.

I agree that the BR of the 1980s and early 1990s was financially very effective and innovative (intercity, regional, south east etc).

 

[WAB]

In a cap and collar WYITA specifies an agreed service level based on demand to prevent under / over bussing on a rolling basis, but the ownership remains with the existing operator. Or maybe more formally like the 1980s Metro NBC joint company to maximise private sector investment which would otherwise be at risk under a , say 7 year, franchise.

The trouble is that there is little sign of substantial investment by Arriva and First. Transdev is a little different but they don't cover nearly as many passenger miles.

 

[Andyh82]

The trouble is that there is little sign of substantial investment by Arriva and First. Transdev is a little different but they don't cover nearly as many passenger miles.

First have just replaced almost the entire Leeds fleet

 

[WAB]

First have just replaced almost the entire Leeds fleet

It's not much to brag about, replacing life-expired vehicles almost like-for-like.

 

[Cesarcollie]

It's not much to brag about, replacing life-expired vehicles almost like-for-like.

you wouldn’t say that if it was your money………!

 

[asw22]

The trouble is that there is little sign of substantial investment by Arriva and First. Transdev is a little different but they don't cover nearly as many passenger miles.

What I seem to be thinking is to reverse deregulation rather than franchising , where operators can bid to operate routes but with WYITA (West Yorkshire Integrated Transport Authority) having a greater say, or even the final say, on routes, frequency, punctuality, reliability and county wide ticketing.
Otherwise all investment would be down to the WYITA, and this might prove difficult if either a future change of government or a change in economic circumstances means that the funding falls significantly.
A promising operator would be able to keep investing as if it is their own business, whereas franchisees probably would be less likely to invest (both new vehicles and possibly maintenance?)

To be fair, First Leeds has had a fairly young fleet for its core routes for most of the last 20 years, whereas Huddersfield and Halifax ...

Although Transdev have 15 plus year old vehicles on their 662, 60, 7, k9 and some other routes, they are well maintained, and the age profile will change as the electrics start to arrive.

 

[noddingdonkey]

It's not much to brag about, replacing life-expired vehicles almost like-for-like.

And sending the life expired crap to Huddersfield and Halifax rather the scrapper

 

[Andyh82]

It's not much to brag about, replacing life-expired vehicles almost like-for-like.

What is the life of a vehicle?

I wouldn’t say B9TL/Gemini’s were ready for the scrap yard

 

[WAB]

What is the life of a vehicle?

I wouldn’t say B9TL/Gemini’s were ready for the scrap yard

Have those been leaving First West Yorkshire in large numbers, or are they mainly being redeployed to replace even older stock elsewhere?

 

[Mwanesh]

In the current environment. Who would invest in a business you may not have in a few years time. It's a double edged sword

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

What is the life of a vehicle?

I wouldn’t say B9TL/Gemini’s were ready for the scrap yard

First Bus depreciate over 17 years but they'll last longer.

Have those been leaving First West Yorkshire in large numbers, or are they mainly being redeployed to replace even older stock elsewhere?

The B7TLs have been heading for scrap; First are looking to exterminate the B7TL asap.

 

[Andyh82]

Have those been leaving First West Yorkshire in large numbers, or are they mainly being redeployed to replace even older stock elsewhere?

They’ve been mostly transferred to Halifax and Huddersfield completely removing the B7TL/ALX400 and almost but not quite removing the B7TL/Gemini. Leeds also got rid of their own examples of the latter. Similar aged (54/05 etc) single deckers have also been removed.

This is one clear benefit that will be the case with franchising. First deploy their newest buses where they make the most money, so mostly Leeds and to some degree Bradford. If the combined authority was running things they’d spread them across all districts so every councillor can see the investment. There might not be more new buses but they’d be better spread out.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

They’ve been mostly transferred to Halifax and Huddersfield completely removing the B7TL/ALX400 and almost but not quite removing the B7TL/Gemini. Leeds also got rid of their own examples of the latter. Similar aged (54/05 etc) single deckers have also been removed.

This is one clear benefit that will be the case with franchising. First deploy their newest buses where they make the most money, so mostly Leeds and to some degree Bradford. If the combined authority was running things they’d spread them across all districts so every councillor can see the investment. There might not be more new buses but they’d be better spread out.

Isn't it the same with a Quality Partnership / Enhanced Partnership? Stick new buses on a newly launched route with a decent frequency which screams investment which in turn moves the rejects previously used on to marginal routes or for scrap.

How I see it is if the Combined Authority were running things, the investment would be mostly spent in the Labour voting areas with the Conservative areas getting the crumbs - one only has to look at the state of the roads in the lower Calder Valley to see that we're fobbed off.

 

[mattb7tl]

Isn't it the same with a Quality Partnership / Enhanced Partnership? Stick new buses on a newly launched route with a decent frequency which screams investment which in turn moves the rejects previously used on to marginal routes or for scrap.

How I see it is if the Combined Authority were running things, the investment would be mostly spent in the Labour voting areas with the Conservative areas getting the crumbs - one only has to look at the state of the roads in the lower Calder Valley to see that we're fobbed off.

We're already in a partnership.
The services getting improvements won't even be recieving new buses either. (Clapped out, incapable, E400Ds from a combination of different operations. SY, Oldham, and the Potteries) An EP+ is the same partnership with slight meaningless modifications authorities have been in for years but dressed up in a mustache presented as something new and for some reason people continue to be gullible enough to eat it up, despite not a single example of a partnership working long term.

 

[TUC]

The £2 fare cap is unlikely to aid the cause for investment in new buses in Halifax and Huddersfield. It's a poorly thought out gimmick.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The £2 fare cap is unlikely to aid the cause for investment in new buses in Halifax and Huddersfield. It's a poorly thought out gimmick.

Before the price cap, First were charging £3.70 single from Queensbury to Halifax, a distance of about three miles.

That’s not going to attract anyone to the bus either.

The problem with the First fleet in Halifax is not the age of the fleet, it’s the fact that First haven’t done anything to them internally for fifteen years. A lick of paint and new seat covers and people would be cooing over the new buses. Hopefully that will come as part of the franchising, because it certainly hasn’t come at First’s own commercial initiative over the last decade.

 

[Deerfold]

The £2 fare cap is unlikely to aid the cause for investment in new buses in Halifax and Huddersfield. It's a poorly thought out gimmick.

Why not? First are getting more than that.

 

[noddingdonkey]

Before the price cap, First were charging £3.70 single from Queensbury to Halifax, a distance of about three miles.

Although a £2.00 single was available on their app. There was a deliberate strategy to overprice paper tickets to incentivise ticketing methods with faster boarding.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Although a £2.00 single was available on their app. There was a deliberate strategy to overprice paper tickets to incentivise ticketing methods with faster boarding.

I think that is the charitable interpretation of what they were doing with those fares. I think it was a manipulation of the reimbursement rates for ENCTS.

Either way it doesn’t attract occasional users- who aren’t going to download an app, register their details and register their bank card before travelling- back to the bus.

It’s also interesting that First use the higher figure, not the app figure, in their reimbursement claims related to the £2 cap.

 

[TUC]

I think that is the charitable interpretation of what they were doing with those fares. I think it was a manipulation of the reimbursement rates for ENCTS.

Either way it doesn’t attract occasional users- who aren’t going to download an app, register their details and register their bank card before travelling- back to the bus.

It’s also interesting that First use the higher figure, not the app figure, in their reimbursement claims related to the £2 cap.

Speaking as someone who only occasionally uses the bus, downloading the app was exactly was I did when I discovered fares via that option were cheaper. People regularly download apps for all kinds of purposes these days. It's not regarded as a difficult task.

 

[AndyHudds]

Speaking as someone who only occasionally uses the bus, downloading the app was exactly was I did when I discovered fares via that option were cheaper. People regularly download apps for all kinds of purposes these days. It's not regarded as a difficult task.

You'd be surprised what an enigma catching the bus can be to people who don't catch them it regularly. Work colleagues have often asked me what to do 'it's been 30 years since I used one, what do I do?' let alone downloading an app.

 

[WAB]

Speaking as someone who only occasionally uses the bus, downloading the app was exactly was I did when I discovered fares via that option were cheaper. People regularly download apps for all kinds of purposes these days. It's not regarded as a difficult task.

And remember that for most people, the alternative to getting the bus is just getting in the car and driving.

 

[mattb7tl]

Speaking as someone who only occasionally uses the bus, downloading the app was exactly was I did when I discovered fares via that option were cheaper. People regularly download apps for all kinds of purposes these days. It's not regarded as a difficult task.

People always complain about the amount of apps they have for car parks. One or two bus apps is very insignificant in the grand scheme of things, although of course it would be better with just one, and mcard isn't quite there yet.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Speaking as someone who only occasionally uses the bus, downloading the app was exactly was I did when I discovered fares via that option were cheaper

The discovery is the big enigma though.

In reality people will catch it once, get rinsed for £3.70 for what is a very short journey, and then decide to drive or take a private hire taxi next time. It’s what I did.