West Yorkshire bus franchising

[Bletchleyite]

You mean this one? I'm not certain they'll keep it but perhaps you're right. Seems like a bit of a missed opportunity, not integrating the liveries of bus and tram. Unlike in Manchester or, now, in Leeds.

As this is going a bit OT I have replied here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/west-midlands-bus-livery.286149/

 

[Mrwerdna1]

As this is going a bit OT I have replied here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/west-midlands-bus-livery.286149/

Cheers

 

[TUC]

I wonder how having Tracy Brabin's name on the side of buses will stand up legally when she is up for re-election and there are careful legal restrictions on what counts as election materials and promotion for a particular candidate, especially when that material on the side of the bus will have effectively come from a public body who will need to be neutral?

 

[GatwickDepress]

I wonder how having Tracy Brabin's name on the side of buses will stand up legally when she is up for re-election and there are careful legal restrictions on what counts as election materials and promotion for a particular candidate, especially when that material on the side of the bus will have effectively come from a public body who will need to be neutral?

I'm glad we have a mayor who is passionate about public transport, but having her name plastered across everything is a bit weird. Following Transport for London's lead with generic 'Mayor of West Yorkshire' branding would stop the accusations of egocentrism for starters (a lot of wags at uni were jokingly surprised she didn't go with 'Brabin Buses') and, as you say, might be less iffy during election season.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It can of course be used in different ways, but in most places in the world Metro relates to rapid transit in the context of transport branding. Perhaps the initial influence of the Metropolitan Railway and Paris’s Métropolitain have been crucial in that regard?

But we are surely going off topic!

Metro comes from Metropolis (Greek meaning mother city). That's where Metropolitan comes from.

It's been used in many bus operations - as mentioned, it's been used in Bristol, West Yorkshire, Sussex/Sth London as Metrobus, MCW built a few thousand of them. As Metro, Blackpool Transport used it as did Status Group in Milton Keynes, and it's also in Merseyside. It's been the brand name in West Yorkshire for about 50 years in various forms, and in the absence of a rapid transit system in West Yorkshire, I can't see too much issue.

I wonder how having Tracy Brabin's name on the side of buses will stand up legally when she is up for re-election and there are careful legal restrictions on what counts as election materials and promotion for a particular candidate, especially when that material on the side of the bus will have effectively come from a public body who will need to be neutral?

This was tested out in West of England. There was a wrap on a double decker that was never actually released where Dan Norris was promoting the Birthday Pass... with three large images of him. It was pulled when others suggested it was in breach of impartiality as the size of the imagery suggested more of a promotion of him rather than the scheme.

I tend to agree - no issue with the "role" being promoted as per TfL/Mayor of London but not the person's name.

 

[HarryL]

I wonder how having Tracy Brabin's name on the side of buses will stand up legally when she is up for re-election and there are careful legal restrictions on what counts as election materials and promotion for a particular candidate, especially when that material on the side of the bus will have effectively come from a public body who will need to be neutral?

The logo of her previous mayoral term with the rose in the shape of West Yorkshire, which was a lot more of a personal logo to her, is still used on the bikes in Leeds, so I imagine it has no impact legally. The current mayoral logo is a lot more neutral than that old one all they have to do is peel off her name and stick another up when it changes. I do think they should do away with the name half entirely and have the Mayor of West Yorkshire part only though.

 

[Leyland Bus]

Are we not getting abit "down the rabbit" with this?? It's one bus, used for the launch of the network name, in a livery that isn't even guaranteed to be the one they actually use... Her name might not be on the final scheme that's easily another year or so off from being nailed down...

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Are we not getting abit "down the rabbit" with this?? It's one bus, used for the launch of the network name, in a livery that isn't even guaranteed to be the one they actually use... Her name might not be on the final scheme that's easily another year or so off from being nailed down...

Possibly... If it's a one off for a network launch, then that's fine. If that's actually the livery that they go with, it'll be a real pain for operators. It was bad enough when First used the vinyl fades and that was one style. Trying to match it up like a wallpaper pattern...

As for Tracy Brabin's name, I not a fan personally of putting politician's names on things.

 

[johncrossley]

Go-Ahead's Surrey and Sussex-based division might have something to say about that.
And again, it's a nothing name. Any metropolitan area could call its network Metrobus, it has nothing that ties it explicitly to West Yorkshire.

Metrobus started in 1983 as an operator in south London, before franchising in London started. By then Metrobus had long been established as the brand name used for West Yorkshire PTE's bus operations. The fleetname can be seen from this classic TV advert:

13K views · 136 reactions | Kerching a West Yorkshire Saver Strip on Metro buses in 1983 | By UKADS | Facebook

Kerching a West Yorkshire Saver Strip on Metro buses in 1983

www.facebook.com

 

[tomoufc]

Metro comes from Metropolis (Greek meaning mother city). That's where Metropolitan comes from.

Exactly. It’s a word that predates modern public transport, and has been used in a huge variety of ways, as I already stated. However, globally its most associated with rapid transit, in the context of public transport, the M symbol being often used to denote an underground or light rail system.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Exactly. It’s a word that predates modern public transport, and has been used in a huge variety of ways, as I already stated. However, globally its most associated with rapid transit, in the context of public transport, the M symbol being often used to denote an underground or light rail system.

I recall asking the PTE years ago (or it may have been a councillor, I've slept since then!) why it used the "Metro" brand when that means city, but West Yorkshire consists of three cities and several significant towns. The answer was that the PTE operated on behalf of the five Metropolitan boroughs (Bradford, Calderdale, Kirklees, Leeds, Wakefield).

 

[TUC]

Royal Mail and Consignia comes to mind. Will they never learn?

 

[SCH117X]

Then you have the Tyne & Wear Metro. At least this is somehat less clumsy than what has occurrred on Merseyside.

 

[AlastairFraser]

@Bletchleyite is absolutely right. In fact, I think you'd be hard pressed to find a greater differential in quality etc within one group. I assume that @Fox192 is basing their view on Go North East/East Yorkshire. If you were to experience Brighton & Hove/Metrobus, or Go South Coast, your views would be markedly different. Same with Oxford Bus (and dare I say it, they're beginning to get Carousel sorted now). Go North West took on work within Bee Network (Tranche 1 mainly so there were some additional bits later) and whilst there were some wobbles initially, it went reasonably well.

Conversely, Metroline are very highly regarded in London so naturally their takeover in Manchester would be peerless... Let's just see what the joys of public procurement bring

Indeed, Carousel do a great job these days. Arriva, on the other hand, is an operator you really would be unlucky to be saddled with, from my experiences travelling with them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed, Carousel do a great job these days. Arriva, on the other hand, is an operator you really would be unlucky to be saddled with, from my experiences travelling with them.

I should perhaps have said "except Arriva". I've seen good and bad Stagecoach, Go-Ahead and First operations, and while they're smaller Wellglade also have their high quality (Trent) and low quality (TM and Notts/Derby) operations, though those are perhaps more deliberate. I don't think I've ever seen any public transport operation of any kind in the UK operated by Arriva that wouldn't range from "a bit rubbish at times"* to "absolute and utter dross"**, to be honest. Clearly it is possible to have senior management so toxic that it rubs off on all operating divisions.

* Chiltern these days
** Arriva Milton Keynes

 

[AlastairFraser]

I should perhaps have said "except Arriva". I've seen good and bad Stagecoach, Go-Ahead and First operations, and while they're smaller Wellglade also have their high quality (Trent) and low quality (TM and Notts/Derby) operations, though those are perhaps more deliberate. I don't think I've ever seen any public transport operation of any kind in the UK operated by Arriva that wouldn't range from "a bit rubbish at times"* to "absolute and utter dross"**, to be honest. Clearly it is possible to have senior management so toxic that it rubs off on all operating divisions.

* Chiltern these days
** Arriva Milton Keynes

I forgot they operated Chiltern and Grand Central, which are actually quite pleasant and easy to use IMHO.
Their buses range from rubbish to dire though, certainly.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I forgot they operated Chiltern and Grand Central, which are actually quite pleasant and easy to use IMHO.

I do use Chiltern from time to time because it's just civilised, but it is not what it was in Adrian Shooter days, it's definitely picked up some Arriva cracks.

Grand Central, frankly, from my experience, shouldn't be in business, it's totally in keeping with the rest of Arriva.

Anyway, best leave that there I think.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I am somewhat sceptical of how much of an impact these changes will have... A friend of mine relies on what is currently an Arriva route (having previously been operated by Yorkshire Traction and their many successor guises. The schedule is hourly during the day, split between two route variations only one of which serves my friend's village. The timetable hasn't changed significantly in decades, and there are gaps in the schedule right at the end of the evening peak which have also existed for years, regardless of whose name was on the side of the bus. Will those gaps be filled? Will there be scope to exploit the potential of an underserved inter-urban route (231/232 Huddersfield to Wakefield, for the record)?

Or will it just be the same hell with a different smell?

 

[IanD]

Should have made it a red livery then they would just need to turn all the big M signs upside down.

 

[Andyh82]

Possibly... If it's a one off for a network launch, then that's fine. If that's actually the livery that they go with, it'll be a real pain for operators. It was bad enough when First used the vinyl fades and that was one style. Trying to match it up like a wallpaper pattern...

As for Tracy Brabin's name, I not a fan personally of putting politician's names on things.

One difference I suppose is that First were trying to apply the pink fades to all kinds of old vehicles like Atlanteans with old style drilled in panels rather than new style vehicles with glued smooth panels

Whereas on one hand the patterns are busy, on the other hand the livery would look a bit plain without them. Maybe they could be applied in a different way that isn’t on the skirt?

 

[Leyland Bus]

One difference I suppose is that First were trying to apply the pink fades to all kinds of old vehicles like Atlanteans with old style drilled in panels rather than new style vehicles with glued smooth panels

You clearly didn't try fitting those fades!!! They were an absolute nightmare whatever they went on!! didn't last long and were extremely expensive

 

[GoneSouth]

Should have made it a red livery then they would just need to turn all the big M signs upside down.

And saved a few quid by picking up lots of red discarded buses from London when their mayor decides he wants a brand new fleet for no good reason

 

[johncrossley]

I am somewhat sceptical of how much of an impact these changes will have... A friend of mine relies on what is currently an Arriva route (having previously been operated by Yorkshire Traction and their many successor guises. The schedule is hourly during the day, split between two route variations only one of which serves my friend's village. The timetable hasn't changed significantly in decades, and there are gaps in the schedule right at the end of the evening peak which have also existed for years, regardless of whose name was on the side of the bus. Will those gaps be filled? Will there be scope to exploit the potential of an underserved inter-urban route (231/232 Huddersfield to Wakefield, for the record)?

Or will it just be the same hell with a different smell?

Even if the timetable doesn't change at all, there could be other ways that improvements could be seen. For example, improvements in reliability, vehicles and ticketing. I presume Arriva still have their own single company tickets, so there will no longer be a problem of having multiple ticket ranges within the conurbation.

 

[TUC]

Even if the timetable doesn't change at all, there could be other ways that improvements could be seen. For example, improvements in reliability, vehicles and ticketing. I presume Arriva still have their own single company tickets, so there will no longer be a problem of having multiple ticket ranges within the conurbation.

Why are multiple ticket ranges a problem? If the buses you use are all operated by the same company why would you want to waste money on a more expensive multi-operator ticket?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why are multiple ticket ranges a problem? If the buses you use are all operated by the same company why would you want to waste money on a more expensive multi-operator ticket?

Because you end up being penalised unfairly for having a journey requiring more than one operator. If the area is too big for flat fares, it's better that it is done based on distance or concentric zones.

 

[TUC]

Because you end up being penalised unfairly for having a journey requiring more than one operator. If the area is too big for flat fares, it's better that it is done based on distance or concentric zones.

I suspect many people's travel to work journeys do only involve one operator.

Why shouldn't people with simpler travel requirements get the cheapest deal?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suspect many people's travel to work journeys do only involve one operator.

Why shouldn't people with simpler travel requirements get the cheapest deal?

For the reason I explained. Distance based charging (either precisely or granularly based on concentric zones) is more appropriate than arbitrary operator boundaries. It's just like penalising people financially for not having a direct service is bad too, but it's taken the UK a long time to realise. Fortunately these regulated systems are going the right way on this - Germany did 30+ years ago and we are only now catching up!

 

[GoneSouth]

I suspect many people's travel to work journeys do only involve one operator.

Why shouldn't people with simpler travel requirements get the cheapest deal?

You do! And there’s nothing to say you won’t continue to do so.

On the other hand, if you need multiple operators to complete your journey through no fault of your own, but because somebody 40 years ago arbitrarily chopped up what used to be local transport authority run routes (Metro in this case) and gave them to private operators who then kept their own fares separate ever since, you can end up paying twice as much or more. That seems unfair and hopefully will be rectified with franchising and centrally controlled fares.

I suspect there won’t be many real savings for punters, the scheme will be expensive to run and local government isn’t known for having big budgets. That doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be done, anything that makes public transport easier to understand and more convenient to use should be applauded. I’ve been very frustrated for years with the fragmented nature of ticketing and information, it always made trips that used more than one operator a pain to plan.

Honestly, the brand name really is awful. Nostalgia does seem to be fashionable, but basing a brand on a local industry that is all but dead hardly matches the 'modern' talk of the press release. Having a geographical name would have been more sensible, and doesn't require a press release to explain what it's all about. As for the mayor's name, I can't help but think it has ego all over it. She is of course a former actress, and performers are not always known for their modesty. As others have noted, much more sensible to link projects such as this to the office (and team) that delivers it, not an individual.

I quite like the name, if Manchester can have its bees buzzing around, why can’t WY have its weavers shuttling and weaving around the county.

Nostalgia it maybe but that’s no bad thing. The region wouldn’t exist as a highly populated area without the cloth it once produced so to recognise that is what the area was built on works for me.

And it’ss nice clever use of the word to suggest bus services weaving around connecting people and places. Not a bad job.

Not my fav shade of green and the mayor shouldn’t have her name in it but apart from that, all good.

Obviously the majority of people won’t give it a second thought and they’ll just see it as the metro M turned upside down and painted green.

I wonder if this will eventually make its way onto trains in the area? I see Andy B over in Manchester is consuming some local trains into the Bee network so maybe. I think the green might look better on trains than his washed out yellow though!

 

[TUC]

I contacted West Yorkshire Combined Authority regarding the concern that including Tracy Brabin’s name on the side of buses could give rise to bias during election periods, and they have advised that the final livery design won't include the name of the mayor. It will just say “Mayor of West Yorkshire” The bus that was used on Monday was purely for the network identity unveil.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Why are multiple ticket ranges a problem? If the buses you use are all operated by the same company why would you want to waste money on a more expensive multi-operator ticket?

On the route I mentioned, up until a few years ago multiple operator tickets were a necessity. Daytime services were Yorkshire Tiger, evenings flitted between Tiger or First every 6-12 months, and Sundays were Arriva. It's now all Arriva but they're terrible (not helped by the Wakefield depot situation currently). The timetable however hasn't significantly changed from Yorkshire Traction days.