Westerns to Redhill?

[izvor]

I have a distinct memory of seeing a "Western" class diesel loco passing through Betchworth, heading from Guildford towards Redhill, maybe around 1970, maybe hauling a parcels train. Could this have happened or is it a case of false memory syndrome? Did they get this far east? Beyond Redhill even? I realise they were built to a wider loading gauge, and the North Downs line was never broad gauge; but then the current "Turbos" are slightly above normal loading gauge. I've searched some books and online albums but not seen any photographic proof. Any info appreciated.

 

[alistairlees]

on this page there is one at reigate

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/forums/topic/130292-aggregate-trains-1970s/page/2/

 

[izvor]

on this page there is one at reigate

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/forums/topic/130292-aggregate-trains-1970s/page/2/

... and one at Betchworth! Fantastic! Many thanks for the quick response. Seems they were on a fairly short-lived working in connection with the building of the M25, and reached as far as Merstham. And for once I wasn't imagining things!

 

[Forty29]

on this page there is one at reigate

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/forums/topic/130292-aggregate-trains-1970s/page/2/

What some wonderful pictures l bet not so photogenic now.

 

[izvor]

Well the North Downs line is still quite scenic between Chilworth and Reigate, though the tree growth has changed its appearance quite a bit since then. The main problem for photography is the rather drab GWR livery, which is rather too similar to the surrounding vegetation, but I guess that applies across most of their network.

 

[Magdalia]

I have a distinct memory of seeing a "Western" class diesel loco passing through Betchworth, heading from Guildford towards Redhill, maybe around 1970, maybe hauling a parcels train.

The most photographed parcels train on the North Downs line was probably 4O16 2135 Bradford-Redhill. It had a long layover at Didcot, where I think it changed locos, and was through Reading at about 0900. The loco returned to Reading light engine, and was usually a Hymek or a Brush Type 2. I'm not aware of 4O16 getting a Western but its not impossible.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I have a distinct memory of seeing a "Western" class diesel loco passing through Betchworth, heading from Guildford towards Redhill, maybe around 1970, maybe hauling a parcels train. Could this have happened or is it a case of false memory syndrome? Did they get this far east? Beyond Redhill even? I realise they were built to a wider loading gauge, and the North Downs line was never broad gauge; but then the current "Turbos" are slightly above normal loading gauge. I've searched some books and online albums but not seen any photographic proof. Any info appreciated.

I was lead to believe Westerns made it to the paper mill at Sittingbourne with china clay wagons. That would have been sometime from late 1974 until 1977. I lived in Strood and always hoped to see one of my favourites - never did. No idea of route but possibly via the Kent coast not via Medway.

 

[Western Lord]

I have a distinct memory of seeing a "Western" class diesel loco passing through Betchworth, heading from Guildford towards Redhill, maybe around 1970, maybe hauling a parcels train. Could this have happened or is it a case of false memory syndrome? Did they get this far east? Beyond Redhill even? I realise they were built to a wider loading gauge, and the North Downs line was never broad gauge; but then the current "Turbos" are slightly above normal loading gauge. I've searched some books and online albums but not seen any photographic proof. Any info appreciated.

What makes you think that Westerns were built to a wider loading guage?

 

[Magdalia]

I realise they were built to a wider loading gauge, and the North Downs line was never broad gauge

There is possibly some confusion here. Some GWR steam locos were very restricted once out of GWR land, most notably Halls and Granges, which had big outside cylinders. But I think they were permitted Reading-Redhill?

 

[izvor]

What makes you think that Westerns were built to a wider loading guage?

There is possibly some confusion here.

I was, somehow, under the impression that the Westerns had a slightly larger profile than the Warships, to take advantage of the former GWR clearances. But feel free to prove me wrong!

 

[Gloster]

Official diagrams show Warships as 8’ 10 1/4” over footsteps and 13’ 0 3/4” over open ventilators. Westerns were 9’ and 13’ 1” over walkways. A Peak was 9’ 1 9/16” and 12’ 10 1/8”. A 47 was 9’ 2” and 12‘ 9 3/8”.

So if anything it looks as though overall height was more likely to be a limiting factor. Of course there are other factors to take into account, such as the effect on curve. However, I would t.honk that the main restricting factor would be driver knowledge.

 

[Rescars]

Back in the day, perhaps the appearance of the Class 206 Tadpoles might have given the illusion that there was something challenging about the loading gauge between Reading and Tonbridge, especially when viewed from the power car end.

 

[Bevan Price]

There is possibly some confusion here. Some GWR steam locos were very restricted once out of GWR land, most notably Halls and Granges, which had big outside cylinders. But I think they were permitted Reading-Redhill?

Only Manor class 4-6-0s were working from Reading to Redhill in the last years of steam on summer services from the GW to South Coast resorts. Trains revesed, and changed locos at Redhill. I suspect anything larger than a Manor was not allowed.

 

[Bald Rick]

... and one at Betchworth! Fantastic! Many thanks for the quick response. Seems they were on a fairly short-lived working in connection with the building of the M25, and reached as far as Merstham. And for once I wasn't imagining things!

To add to the excellent pictures, I vaguely remember seeing Westerns on the Norht Downs in the early 70s.

And very tenously related, but the construction of the M25 Merstham interchange had a bulldozer driver who then went on to much bigger and better things - one Bob Geldof.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Back in the day, perhaps the appearance of the Class 206 Tadpoles might have given the illusion that there was something challenging about the loading gauge between Reading and Tonbridge, especially when viewed from the power car end.

Nothing to do with the loading gauge on the North Downs line. They were cobbled together from redundant stock - two cars of a class 201 Hastings unit (the Hastings line did have a narrowwer loading gauge, hence the narrow "tail") and one EPB driving trailer (the wider "head"). As laodings picked up, on the Hstings line the units were reconstituted, and the driving trailers found their way into augmenting the few Hampshire units (classes 204 and 205) that had not had an extra trailer added shortly after introduction - a few of them had been left as two-car units to manage the steeply graded Alton to Winchester line, which closed in the 1970s and is, in part, now the Watercress Line.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jun 2025 ==

the rather drab GWR livery,

Agreed - GWR likes to hark back to its namesake, but soemone got the wrong end of the stick with liveries. Only its locos were dark green. Its units looked like this -

(can anyone photoshop a 165 or an IEP in that livery? - there's an HST and a 153 on the Fictitious Liveries website)

 

[Ashley Hill]

(can anyone photoshop a 165 or an IEP in that livery? - there's an HST and a 153 on the Fictitious Liveries website

Can’t do photoshop but here’s a photo from RMweb showing a GWR railcard in all over BR green with speed whiskers.

 

[Harpo]

I was lead to believe Westerns made it to the paper mill at Sittingbourne with china clay wagons. That would have been sometime from late 1974 until 1977.

Presumably OOC men with a route conductor? They collected and returned the depot fuel tanks from/to Hoo Jn via Hither Green.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Presumably OOC men with a route conductor? They collected and returned the depot fuel tanks from/to Hoo Jn via Hither Green.

Something else I would like to have kept an eye out for as Hoo Junction was a bike ride away from my home. I was hungry for locos, especially Westerns. My fix would come at New Street when visiting my Grandparents in Birmingham - a declining chance of seeing a Western in amongst all the other locos.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Can’t do photoshop but here’s a photo from RMweb showing a GWR railcard in all over BR green with speed whiskers.
View attachment 181274

Yes, they were standard DMU green towards the end. Also blood-and-custard

and maroon - although I cannot find any colour photos of the latter - here is a model.

The last were withdrawn in 1962 so they were never blue

 

[contrex]

I realise they were built to a wider loading gauge, and the North Downs line was never broad gauge

They weren't that broad! I used to see them at various places between Clapham Jn and Norwood Junction when they took freights to Norwood Yard. Also stone trains for M25/M23 via the Reading Redhill line, and stone trains from Tytherington to Bletchley, Bedford and Northampton. When they worked the Luton stone trains they went up the branch from Bletchley to Bedford and ran round before heading south, once unloaded at Luton they would return to the WR via Cricklewood, Dudding Hill and Acton Wells. They went to York more than once on service trains.

 

[izvor]

So it would seem, as Gloster explained (reply #11 above) the issue if anything was height rather than width, plus driver knowledge. From what you say, they were clearly more ubiquitous than I had realised.

 

[contrex]

So it would seem, as Gloster explained (reply #11 above) the issue if anything was height rather than width, plus driver knowledge. From what you say, they were clearly more ubiquitous than I had realised.

Class 52 height (13 ft 1 inch) was only half an inch more than Class 74 (13 ft 0+1⁄2 in) and 1 inch more than Class 92 (13 ft 0 in, panto down). All these measurements would be with new wheels, I should think. I believe the standard BR loading gauge allows maximum height of 13 ft 6 in from the top of the rails in the centre. I think route knowledge was the main factor.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jun 2025 ==

the construction of the M25 Merstham interchange had a bulldozer driver who then went on to much bigger and better things - one Bob Geldof.

He didn't do well, I gather, as he didn't like Mondays.

 

[Trainlog]

I was lead to believe Westerns made it to the paper mill at Sittingbourne with china clay wagons. That would have been sometime from late 1974 until 1977. I lived in Strood and always hoped to see one of my favourites - never did. No idea of route but possibly via the Kent coast not via Medway.

If there is any footage or photos available of the Westerns in Kent? (in commercial service, not preservation).

Whilst I am more of a steam enthusiast, Swindon Hydraulics are fascinating to me. It is interesting to think they might have made an occasional appearance down here in Kent in commercial service.

I certainly learnt something from this thread .