What can you do if somebody sits on your booked seat ?

[Falcon1200]

You'd simply introduce a penalty for not having a reservation, e.g. a base £50 Penalty Fare.

How would that be enforced though? There is no means of segregating access to Avanti services at say Preston or Wigan North Western, and no way that any full ticket inspection could take place in the 12 minute journey time between them!

Some may of course consider that being a worthwhile price to board the train without one if it's urgent.

Which is what everyone would do.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How would that be enforced though? There is no means of segregating access to Avanti services at say Preston or Wigan North Western, and no way that any full ticket inspection could take place in the 12 minute journey time between them!

Most people do as they are told. Just like the small number of peak Avantis that are pick up/set down only at MKC, the odd person would work it out and board anyway. As long as it's only the odd person, it isn't really a problem.

Which is what everyone would do.

Everyone would happily pay an extra fifty quid to board a train without a reservation? I very much doubt that. That would be confined to the very odd few well off people and people in a massive rush to something unmissable like a wedding. Again, most people do as they're told and would be mortified to be "fined".

 

[Falcon1200]

Everyone would happily pay an extra fifty quid to board a train without a reservation?

No, what I meant was that people would take a chance (and would be extremely unlucky to be caught and fined).

 

[Bletchleyite]

No, what I meant was that people would take a chance (and would be extremely unlucky to be caught and fined).

Most people, as I said, do as they're told. A few will take a chance, but a few don't really matter.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

On the 16:31 from Bristol Temple Meads to Edinburgh (10/09/23) on the 7-car HST, I was unaware my seat reservation in Coach G was 'Available'. A few were that. Not long after leaving Birmingham New Street, the train manager apologised that the seat reservations had failed to download.

Also, he said that if anyone had found someone sitting in their seat that could they please relocate to another part of the train. I'd say fair announcement but I felt sorry for any passengers who wanted a specific seat.

There was a small argument with parents who booked one of the middle table seats at Birmingham New Street where kids in their teens I think said that this and that seats not functioning.

Instead of arguing with the seat reservation holder, just get up and let them have the seat. That's the easiest thing to do!

 

[themeone]

My TOC no longer uses seat reservations and it’s one of the best things they’ve done and I hope it never comes back.

I agree, I think seat reservations are more trouble than they're worth. On trains south of London lack of seat reservations seems to work perfectly fine. I understand family groups etc want to sit together, but I usually find people will move to accommodate them if there's space.

 

[Peter0124]

Scenarios like this should automatically upgrade the person to first class (or Standard Premium with Avanti) if those coaches aren't full. Minus the food.

A reserved seat should only be for the person who reserved it. You can't just say "your younger and fitter" as an excuse to take people's reserved seats.


There was a time in 2019 though when I travelled back from London to Glasgow on a Voyager. I was in Coach C which I am highly sure was the designated unreserved coach (unless I made a mistake there as Avanti now say its D, but it was Virgin I travelled with). Someone wanted my seat at Birmingham New Street as they had reserved it, but I was in the unreserved coach so was convinced that Virgin had made a mistake or that the person booked a different train. So I stayed in the seat. Was I in the wrong here?

 

[route101]

The other issue with seat reservations is they bunch them together, Scotrail did this on the HSTs. You would move to get more space.

 

[trainophile]

And whatever you specify when booking (unless it’s an actual specific seat) you always get the backwards one with no window . It’s no wonder people finding that choose a different seat if there’s one free.

 

[Crepello]

A knucklehead tried this back in the (dearly missed) days of VT; departure from Euston to my beloved hometown. I'm only in the UK once every few years, and like to ensure I enjoy every journey.

"Ohh - the reservation indicators aren't working so it looks like you're not reserved any more - sorry!"

The guard gave not one fig - which I understand entirely, as I also work in a customer facing role. But I informed everyone the train wouldn't be leaving until BTP appeared, and I'd be blocking a door until they did. Knucklehead looked a bit less comfortable upon hearing this, but off I went. Didn't get the prompt response I was expecting, but wife texted me some time later - "I located his backpack and repositioned it above an empty seat. You might want to come sit next to me!"

I did, and all ended well. Later found an item he'd dropped below the seat, and politely returned it to him... he seemed surprised by my civility - yet this was all I'd wanted *him* to display, all along!

 

[Bletchleyite]

A knucklehead tried this back in the (dearly missed) days of VT; departure from Euston to my beloved hometown. I'm only in the UK once every few years, and like to ensure I enjoy every journey.

"Ohh - the reservation indicators aren't working so it looks like you're not reserved any more - sorry!"

This is correct. If the reservation displays are not working, the general case is that the reservations don't apply. The other option results in all manner of stupid games of musical chairs. GWR is particularly good at announcing this when it applies - a bit of a shame others are less good at it.

 

[Crepello]

This is correct. If the reservation displays are not working, the general case is that the reservations don't apply. The other option results in all manner of stupid games of musical chairs. GWR is particularly good at announcing this when it applies - a bit of a shame others are less good at it.

I pointed out to the gentleman that I was holding a printed reservation (APTIS, no less!) for the seats, whereas he was not. This seemed reasonable grounds to claim what I had paid a supplement for - had the situation been reversed, I'd have moved and apologized. He continued to find this unreasonable, and seemed rather triumphant. Did I "big up" my northern accent to further my point? Yeah, possibly...

 

[Bletchleyite]

I pointed out to the gentleman that I was holding a printed reservation (APTIS, no less!) for the seats, whereas he was not.

This makes no difference. If the reservations are not displayed then they do not apply. That will be why the guard did not do anything about it.

I've long thought there should be signage to this effect which would solve any such arguments (also, French style, as to the default position for the blinds in the event of dispute).

This can be disappointing - it cost me my "ideal" reserved seat on a GWR Cornish service last time I used that service - but it's the only sensible approach on a railway with optional reservations, as otherwise people have no clue which seats are reserved and which not, so you end up with silly games of musical chairs.

This seemed reasonable grounds to claim what I had paid a supplement for

Seat reservations on all UK trains are free of charge. If you were charged, then you paid someone an unnecessary service fee which does not entitle you to anything as such.

- had the situation been reversed, I'd have moved and apologized.

He was in the right, he had nothing to apologise for.

He continued to find this unreasonable, and seemed rather triumphant.

Because he was right.

Did I "big up" my northern accent to further my point? Yeah, possibly...

I'd not have moved, and if you had attempted to move my property from the overheads I'd have been considering a text to 61016, you have no right to do that.

 

[HurdyGurdy]

I pointed out to the gentleman that I was holding a printed reservation (APTIS, no less!) for the seats, whereas he was not.

What if the seat had been occupied by a single parent travelling with young children? Would you have advised that because you had paid a supplement (I doubt you had) they had to travel separately from their kids? Or would you have prevented the train from departing until the entire group moved to another part of the train? And if they did move, with no seats marked as reserved, how could they find a place at which some oaf would not come along at the very next stop, holding a printed seat reservation and being obnoxiously northern at them?

Sometimes train companies don't manage to display the seats you've reserved. If that happens, just find somewhere to sit. Complain to the train company about it. Don't take it out on other passengers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What if the seat had been occupied by a single parent travelling with young children? Would you have advised that because you had paid a supplement (I doubt you had)

I did wonder if they had obtained the reservation from InterRail, which does incur a fee, but that fee is a service fee to InterRail (comparable to say Trainline's extra fees), and does not entitle anything as such.

There was a brief period when GWR (or was it GNER?) charged two quid for them, but to my recollection Virgin has never charged. But even if they had, then you'd be entitled to a refund of the reservation fee, provided another seat was available which it sounds like it was.

 

[HurdyGurdy]

Had this recently on Avanti. No seat reservations shown and no announcement made about it, but plenty of places to sit. Those, including me, who found their reserved seat occupied just found other places.

Except one passenger who insisted on sitting in their seat, occupied by someone else. But the other pax declined to move. A fuss was caused all the way from Milton Keynes. The train called at Rugby and the fuss continued until the train was approaching Coventry, at which point the Train Manager got involved. Told the pax to move as it was Avanti's policy that those with reservations sat in their booked seats, even when not displayed. Pax still declined to move. By now the train has stopped at Coventry and the Train Manager recruited Avanti staff from the platform to gang up on pax. Demanded vacate the seat or the train will be going no further! I am not making this up.

 

[BJames]

This makes no difference. If the reservations are not displayed then they do not apply. That will be why the guard did not do anything about it.

I've long thought there should be signage to this effect which would solve any such arguments (also, French style, as to the default position for the blinds in the event of dispute).

This can be disappointing - it cost me my "ideal" reserved seat on a GWR Cornish service last time I used that service - but it's the only sensible approach on a railway with optional reservations, as otherwise people have no clue which seats are reserved and which not, so you end up with silly games of musical chairs.



Seat reservations on all UK trains are free of charge. If you were charged, then you paid someone an unnecessary service fee which does not entitle you to anything as such.



He was in the right, he had nothing to apologise for.



Because he was right.



I'd not have moved, and if you had attempted to move my property from the overheads I'd have been considering a text to 61016, you have no right to do that.

The post you are responding to is ample evidence to suggest that not enough is done by TOCs to advise of the policy when displays are not working. The fact that someone frequenting a rail forum is unaware suggests that the ordinary person will have no idea. I agree that a simple sign, near reservation displays at semi-regular intervals across the carriage or just simply where someone can point to it, would put paid to a lot of these arguments.

Someone tried this with me not that long ago on GWR when the TM did not announce that the displays were not working. It was a packed 5 car service bound for the Cotswolds (ie via Oxford) - I refused to move on the grounds that the indicators on the platform at Paddington were displaying no seat reservations on this service. The man's partner informed him that I was probably right and to leave it. On the way back, the displays were again not working properly but having boarded north of Oxford, I had plenty of choice of seats. I asked the TM if he'd consider announcing it at Oxford on arrival, to be honest he looked very confused but said ok and then didn't (as I'd expected after his reaction).

 

[Bletchleyite]

The post you are responding to is ample evidence to suggest that not enough is done by TOCs to advise of the policy when displays are not working. The fact that someone frequenting a rail forum is unaware suggests that the ordinary person will have no idea. I agree that a simple sign, near reservation displays at semi-regular intervals across the carriage or just simply where someone can point to it, would put paid to a lot of these arguments.

I completely agree. It would be really easy to put up small signs at intervals in the coach stating these three points, which are the main sources of conflict. There's enough space for them.

1. If the seat reservations are not displayed, then they do not apply, please take any seat.

2. If there is a dispute as to whether the blind should be open or closed, it should be <whatever>.

3. Electronic devices must not be played out loud in any part of the train.

This would be so, so easy to do, and would avoid all manner of arguments.

 

[HurdyGurdy]

This would be so, so easy to do, and would avoid all manner of arguments.

But groups who find they can't sit together, or the incontinent who has to sit miles from a toilet, and every other passenger who feels inconvenienced by being told they can't ask anyone to move from their seat, will then direct angry emails to customer services.

Far better from the TOC's point of view to not make any announcement or post signs about it. Keep the policy ambiguous so pax annoyance is directed at other pax.

 

[py_megapixel]

I didn't think the intention was ever to guarantee seats to passengers with advance tickets. I was under the impression that it was just a bodge to work around the fact that the credit-card-sized tickets with the old printing format didn't have enough space for the usual ticket information plus the specific service details on one coupon, so "booked train only" was implemented by making the ticket valid only with a corresponding reservation and then forcing a reservation (on a separate coupon) to be issued with every sale.

Modern CCSTs can fit everything in one, and there is of course tons of space on a thermal roll print ticket and basically unlimited space on an e-ticket, so this isn't really a problem any more. Thus it would seem reasonable to me to stop automatically issuing seat reservations with advance tickets and give passengers the option of reserving if they choose to do so, in the same way as other ticket types.

 

[AdamWW]

I didn't think the intention was ever to guarantee seats to passengers with advance tickets. I was under the impression that it was just a bodge to work around the fact that the credit-card-sized tickets with the old printing format didn't have enough space for the usual ticket information plus the specific service details on one coupon, so "booked train only" was implemented by making the ticket valid only with a corresponding reservation and then forcing a reservation (on a separate coupon) to be issued with every sale.

Modern CCSTs can fit everything in one, and there is of course tons of space on a thermal roll print ticket and basically unlimited space on an e-ticket, so this isn't really a problem any more. Thus it would seem reasonable to me to stop automatically issuing seat reservations with advance tickets and give passengers the option of reserving if they choose to do so, in the same way as other ticket types.

That may have been the intention at the start, but it currently seems to be possible to issue advance tickets with a "reservation" with no seat number, even on trains that do offer such reservations.

I don't know why someone would want an advance ticket without a seat reservation, given the choice, though.

 

[greyman42]

This is correct. If the reservation displays are not working, the general case is that the reservations don't apply. The other option results in all manner of stupid games of musical chairs. GWR is particularly good at announcing this when it applies - a bit of a shame others are less good at it.

LNER announce it as well.

But I informed everyone the train wouldn't be leaving until BTP appeared, and I'd be blocking a door until they did.

When BTP did appear, i suspect it would of been you with the explaining to do.

 

[Lurcheroo]

LNER announce it as well.


When BTP did appear, i suspect it would of been you with the explaining to do.

When I read his statement I was thinking if I was the train manager / conductor on his service I’d have gone “no problem I’ll give them a call now” and then phoned to say some dude was preventing the train leaving.

 

[nuneatonmark]

Just no, god no!

As conductors all we can do (this is what we are instructed by our company) is to ask if they will move, if they won’t then, that’s it, nothing more we can do, we can’t force them or remove them from the train.
The BTP sure don’t have the time or resources to do it. And I certainly don’t think train crew or BTP *WANT* to do it either !

My TOC no longer uses seat reservations and it’s one of the best things they’ve done and I hope it never comes back.

In my opinion most train services don’t really suit seat reservations as it’s not like an airline where the train is going to 1 destination.

I believe Lumo do it where you can only ride the service if you have a reservation. Which is great. I can get behind that as there would be no one without a seat res and should never be overbooked.
Either do it 100% or not at all.

And as has already been mentioned people just get on and think “oh that seats nicer, so I’ll sit there instead” and then they’re reserved seat goes unoccupied for a lot of the journey for no reason.
AWAY WITH RESERVATIONS

One of the main advantages of long distance rail travel, for me, is being able to reserve a seat, so if seat reservations would be abolished, it's much less likely we'd use the train. I suspect a lot of people are the same. Yet again, the customer would have to be inconvenienced because of a few idiots and a lack of enforcement.

 

[LCC106]

“What can you do if somebody sits on your booked seat?” Haven’t read all six pages so apologies if it’s already been suggested, but sit on their knee? EDIT: @tony6499 and @norbitonflyer got there before me. Great minds eh?

 

[ChrisC]

One of the main advantages of long distance rail travel, for me, is being able to reserve a seat, so if seat reservations would be abolished, it's much less likely we'd use the train. I suspect a lot of people are the same. Yet again, the customer would have to be inconvenienced because of a few idiots and a lack of enforcement.

I agree. Most of the time I don’t bother reserving a seat. However, for long distance travel, on trains like XC Voyagers, which are regularly overcrowded, being able to reserve a seat is important. For example, I wouldn’t want to be boarding a train at Derby, for a journey to the South West without having a reserved seat.

 

[Crepello]

LNER announce it as well.


When BTP did appear, i suspect it would of been you with the explaining to do.

Oh, I'd have happily explained that I had a reservation for that seat, and that he'd refused to move when politely requested.

When I read his statement I was thinking if I was the train manager / conductor on his service I’d have gone “no problem I’ll give them a call now” and then phoned to say some dude was preventing the train leaving.

"Some dude" - that's how you'd refer to a fare paying passenger?? But yep, preventing the train leaving as I'd concerns about a trouble-causer who may endanger public safety after the train departed Euston? Absolutely. Responding officers would have the opportunity to identify and background check him (and me), and I'd feel much happier thereafter.
Some years ago, I equally "prevented a takeoff" (by making my concerns known) from Gatwick as I'd felt under my seat, and found no inflatable vest. If your answer to such a concern is to encourage intimidation then I fear you and I have little common ground.

 

[BJames]

Oh, I'd have happily explained that I had a reservation for that seat, and that he'd refused to move when politely requested.



"Some dude" - that's how you'd refer to a fare paying passenger?? But yep, preventing the train leaving as I'd concerns about a trouble-causer who may endanger public safety after the train departed Euston? Absolutely. Responding officers would have the opportunity to identify and background check him (and me), and I'd feel much happier thereafter.
Some years ago, I equally "prevented a takeoff" (by making my concerns known) from Gatwick as I'd felt under my seat, and found no inflatable vest. If your answer to such a concern is to encourage intimidation then I fear you and I have little common ground.

Someone not giving up a seat which they were entitled to versus no inflatable vest under your seat in a plane are not comparable situations.

I can't quite believe that I'm reading the sentence a 'trouble-causer who may endanger public safety' in relation to someone who won't get up for you when they didn't need to do so.

Just to reiterate what is said above: no reservations displayed renders seat reservations null and void. It is a real shame staff are not able to make this clearer (or, better yet and at risk of repeating myself and others, signs to this effect displayed to save staff the need to do so in the first place).

 

[Crepello]

no reservations displayed renders seat reservations null and void.

But as previously mentioned - I'd PAID for that reservation - the able-bodied, shifty-looking occupant of the seat had not. All very well to claim "computer says no" as justification for a freeloader's paradise -yet again.

No reservations displayed - It seems you feel the TOC's failure should become the customer's problem? Not acceptable - I regard that as total abdication of responsibility by the company, and by the train manager as their senior representative. Hence my desire to get this "all sorted" prior to departure from Euston - much to the disgust of one above commentator!

 

[BJames]

But as previously mentioned - I'd PAID for that reservation - the able-bodied, shifty-looking occupant of the seat had not. All very well to claim "computer says no" as justification for a freeloader's paradise -yet again.

No reservations displayed - It seems you feel the TOC's failure should become the customer's problem? Not acceptable - I regard that as total abdication of responsibility by the company, and by the train manager as their senior representative. Hence my desire to get this "all sorted" prior to departure from Euston - much to the disgust of one above commentator!

Sorry to say but you have been ripped off if that's the case - reservations are free. I'm not clear where you got the reservation from but in the future, if you wish to obtain a free seat reservation you can contact the TOC in question and they will provide you with one. You can do this by phone or via any social media channels. And to take LNER as an alternative example, they have an excellent reservations system (probably one which should be replicated by other TOCs to be honest).

I admit that I do understand your frustration because you paid in this instance but sadly that's not the other passenger's fault. In future obtain your reservation through one of the channels mentioned above and you won't have to pay for the reservation.