What changes would you like to see to Northern services?

[ChrisC]

Moderator note: split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ginal-plans-vs-what-actually-happened.168219/

I can understand if Nottingham to Bradford does not happen. I didn’t think it was very sensible to add that short extension to the route, including reversal at Leeds, when timekeeping is often not good on the current route. However, what would be a disappointment is if Leeds to Nottingham is not rerouted via Wakefield Westgate to speed things up a bit. The current journey of approximately 2 hours is not good enough for Nottingham to Leeds.

 

[Peter Bonner]

I can understand if Nottingham to Bradford does not happen. I didn’t think it was very sensible to add that short extension to the route, including reversal at Leeds, when timekeeping is often not good on the current route. However, what would be a disappointment is if Leeds to Nottingham is not rerouted via Wakefield Westgate to speed things up a bit. The current journey of approximately 2 hours is not good enough for Nottingham to Leeds.

Quite agree. Service needs ro be more robust and run; it is too prone to cancellations.
In terms of extension of the service if it were to go on to Leicester it wd give a real East Mids to Leeds service and prob be popular too.

 

[VT 390]

Quite agree. Service needs ro be more robust and run; it is too prone to cancellations.
In terms of extension of the service if it were to go on to Leicester it wd give a real East Mids to Leeds service and prob be popular too.

Would it not be much quicker to go via EMR to Sheffield and then Sheffield to Leeds, and even if it isn't adding a reversal at Nottingham and fitting in with other EMR/XC services around Leicester does not seam like a good idea and just adds more things to cause delays.

 

[Peter Bonner]

Would it not be much quicker to go via EMR to Sheffield and then Sheffield to Leeds, and even if it isn't adding a reversal at Nottingham and fitting in with other EMR/XC services around Leicester does not seam like a good idea and just adds more things to cause delays.

That may be so but having a THROUGH service wd be desirable. Is that not the key to connectivity?

 

[VT 390]

That may be so but having a THROUGH service wd be desirable. Is that not the key to connectivity?

Yes I do agree that having through services would be good (the same for the Bradford extension at the Leeds end) but when services can not be operated reliably as it is on a lot of Northern routes I think introducing more services will just make things worse.

 

[Peter Bonner]

Yes I do agree that having through services would be good (the same for the Bradford extension at the Leeds end) but when services can not be operated reliably as it is on a lot of Northern routes I think introducing more services will just make things worse.

I agree that it is getting the balance right that counts. Changing trains between franchises is the issue Leeds to Leicester and elsewhere. Its about ticketing options and validity, holding connections or even timetabling connections. On my line from Hull to Brid Northern connections onto TPE are an issue. If a Northern service is late TPE dont show any interest or vv. even on last trains. Joined up railway in north is needed if you cant run as many through services as you like.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

Surely there should be direct trains between Bradford and Sheffield, two of the ten biggest cities in England and in the same county.

 

[VT 390]

Surely there should be direct trains between Bradford and Sheffield, two of the ten biggest cities in England and in the same county.

I agree that having direct services from Bradford to Sheffield would be nice, however as the current services across Northern cannot be operated reliably extending services and adding reversals would most likely make them more unreliable.

 

[Freemo]

I was really hoping for another express tph Sheffield >< Leeds out of it. Saturdays actually seem to be the worst as the CrossCountrys are carrying more long distance leisure travellers.

 

[Whisky Papa]

Surely there should be direct trains between Bradford and Sheffield, two of the ten biggest cities in England and in the same county.

They may be considered to be in the same county or they may not: personally I don't think so. I never found Sheffield to be a particularly major destination from Bradford, certainly nothing like Manchester or even Liverpool as far as leisure travel was concerned. There were actually more wanting Meadowhall, which (as somebody who hates shopping) I find rather depressing.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Surely there should be direct trains between Bradford and Sheffield, two of the ten biggest cities in England and in the same county.

Is there actual demand for it that is not presently adequately met? That's the basis it should be done on, not a ceremonial basis.

 

[Peter Bonner]

They may be considered to be in the same county or they may not: personally I don't think so. I never found Sheffield to be a particularly major destination from Bradford, certainly nothing like Manchester or even Liverpool as far as leisure travel was concerned. There were actually more wanting Meadowhall, which (as somebody who hates shopping) I find rather depressing.

You are right that direct service from Bradford to Meadowhall wd be popular.

An alternative means of improving connectivity might be to extend the admittedly slow Sheffield to Huddersfield service to Halifax and Bradford. Wd remove underused and wasteful shuttle from BDF to HUDD. Free up space at HUDD too. Probably not possible to do but dont recall that current connections at HUDD instead are good.

 

[Whisky Papa]

You are right that direct service from Bradford to Meadowhall wd be popular.

An alternative means of improving connectivity might be to extend the admittedly slow Sheffield to Huddersfield service to Halifax and Bradford. Wd remove underused and wasteful shuttle from BDF to HUDD. Free up space at HUDD too. Probably not possible to do but dont recall that current connections at HUDD instead are good.

It won't be possible to link those two services at Huddersfield without taking capacity from the through platforms, I'm afraid. Unfortunately them terminating in bay platforms on the opposite corners of the station is not great from the pasengers point of view either, even if the times made for a reasonable connection, but it is the only option without a complete rebuild of the station with more through platforms.

 

[Peter Bonner]

It won't be possible to link those two services at Huddersfield without taking capacity from the through platforms, I'm afraid. Unfortunately them terminating in bay platforms on the opposite corners of the station is not great from the pasengers point of view either, even if the times made for a reasonable connection, but it is the only option without a complete rebuild of the station with more through platforms.

Thanks for that info re Huddersfield platforms. We all for better services but always that INFRASTRUCTURE snag that holds back progress.

 

[tbtc]

I was really hoping for another express tph Sheffield >< Leeds out of it. Saturdays actually seem to be the worst as the CrossCountrys are carrying more long distance leisure travellers.

This is an actual problem in need of a solution, rather than some of the suggestions on this thread (e.g. Leicester to Sheffield but with a reversal at Nottingham to make it take even longer... there's no major demand to get from Sheffield to Bradford either as far as I can see - the X33 was withdrawn many years ago and As Far As I Can See there are no National Express services other than those which go via Leeds, i.e. there can't be much demand if there's no "fast" coach service between the cities).

Frustratingly, the only hope for a second "fast" Sheffield - Leeds service was going to be a two coach 195 (with even fewer seats than the 158s that run via Barnsley) - it'd be much better to run such a service as an extension of the St Pancras services.

The prospect of a "fast" Sheffield - Leeds service was one of the few genuine service improvements that Northern Connect would give us to look forward to, rather than tarting up an existing service with better stock (although I'm not sure that replacing three coach 170s on Sheffield - Hull with two coach 195s will be much of an improvement!).

Generally, I've never been too fussed about Northern Connect - we already have a three tier railway in northern England (e.g. LNER/Avanti at the top, TPE/XC in the middle, Northern at the bottom) - so creating a fourth tier seems unnecessarily complicated - a map more born of a desire for Bradford's politicians to point to the fact that they had through services to Nottingham/ Chester/ Liverpool than any overwhelming demand. Bit of a vanity project when the Northern network has more than enough problems to deal with.

 

[Bantamzen]

This is an actual problem in need of a solution, rather than some of the suggestions on this thread (e.g. Leicester to Sheffield but with a reversal at Nottingham to make it take even longer... there's no major demand to get from Sheffield to Bradford either as far as I can see - the X33 was withdrawn many years ago and As Far As I Can See there are no National Express services other than those which go via Leeds, i.e. there can't be much demand if there's no "fast" coach service between the cities).

Frustratingly, the only hope for a second "fast" Sheffield - Leeds service was going to be a two coach 195 (with even fewer seats than the 158s that run via Barnsley) - it'd be much better to run such a service as an extension of the St Pancras services.

The prospect of a "fast" Sheffield - Leeds service was one of the few genuine service improvements that Northern Connect would give us to look forward to, rather than tarting up an existing service with better stock (although I'm not sure that replacing three coach 170s on Sheffield - Hull with two coach 195s will be much of an improvement!).

Generally, I've never been too fussed about Northern Connect - we already have a three tier railway in northern England (e.g. LNER/Avanti at the top, TPE/XC in the middle, Northern at the bottom) - so creating a fourth tier seems unnecessarily complicated - a map more born of a desire for Bradford's politicians to point to the fact that they had through services to Nottingham/ Chester/ Liverpool than any overwhelming demand. Bit of a vanity project when the Northern network has more than enough problems to deal with.

Just to put the Bradford issue into context, local politicians (and one prominent one is a family friend so I do have this first hand) were keen for the city to have more visible connectivity via the Connect brand because they were at the time lobbying the government to move with a planned government hub in the city (at Jacobs Well). So by encouraging this, they thought it might improve the city's chances in getting this hub built, especially as it meant securing thousands of jobs and the associated footfall in the city centre, less than 10 minutes stroll from the new shopping centre. And indeed for a short while it seemed this would be successful until the government moved to a plan for a new hub in Leeds, ironically at Whitehall more or less on the footprint of the old station that was once there.

So with this now off the table, if you were to ask local politicians about their preferred connectivity right now London would be up there obviously (and soon to be fulfilled), along with Leeds now that the two cities are starting to work together, then Manchester Airport, Manchester, Liverpool, with Meadowhall & Sheffield way down the list, and Nottingham probably not even on it now.

Incidentally I used to use the X33 a lot when I lived in Wakefield for a while. They used to be very popular amongst Sheffield students heading to Bradford for a night out, so much so that they were often full to standing arriving into Wakey, sometimes even with a duplicate service running alongside. That was when Bradford had the music scene in the region, something a lot of people here are starting to push for again here. So if by some chance the DfT resurrect the Connect brand, you might here Bradford politicians chelping up again about an improved connective service, albeit probably more centred along the Leeds-Manchester-Liverpool alignment. Just a heads up really, I know how you love Bradford & it's wishes so.....

 

[Peter Bonner]

Just to put the Bradford issue into context, local politicians (and one prominent one is a family friend so I do have this first hand) were keen for the city to have more visible connectivity via the Connect brand because they were at the time lobbying the government to move with a planned government hub in the city (at Jacobs Well). So by encouraging this, they thought it might improve the city's chances in getting this hub built, especially as it meant securing thousands of jobs and the associated footfall in the city centre, less than 10 minutes stroll from the new shopping centre. And indeed for a short while it seemed this would be successful until the government moved to a plan for a new hub in Leeds, ironically at Whitehall more or less on the footprint of the old station that was once there.

So with this now off the table, if you were to ask local politicians about their preferred connectivity right now London would be up there obviously (and soon to be fulfilled), along with Leeds now that the two cities are starting to work together, then Manchester Airport, Manchester, Liverpool, with Meadowhall & Sheffield way down the list, and Nottingham probably not even on it now.

Incidentally I used to use the X33 a lot when I lived in Wakefield for a while. They used to be very popular amongst Sheffield students heading to Bradford for a night out, so much so that they were often full to standing arriving into Wakey, sometimes even with a duplicate service running alongside. That was when Bradford had the music scene in the region, something a lot of people here are starting to push for again here. So if by some chance the DfT resurrect the Connect brand, you might here Bradford politicians chelping up again about an improved connective service, albeit probably more centred along the Leeds-Manchester-Liverpool alignment. Just a heads up really, I know how you love Bradford & it's wishes so.....

Thanks for those observations. Very interesting indeed

 

[Andyh82]

You are right that direct service from Bradford to Meadowhall wd be popular.

An alternative means of improving connectivity might be to extend the admittedly slow Sheffield to Huddersfield service to Halifax and Bradford. Wd remove underused and wasteful shuttle from BDF to HUDD. Free up space at HUDD too. Probably not possible to do but dont recall that current connections at HUDD instead are good.

Isn’t that the same thing they’ve done in Manchester?

Stich together two stoppers and then declare a new direct link between two places.

In reality, the link is a torturous service stopping about 20 Times, and it’s no quickler the previous set up where you’d change half way and travel on fast or semi fast services.

 

[Mathew S]

Isn’t that the same thing they’ve done in Manchester?

Stich together two stoppers and then declare a new direct link between two places.

In reality, the link is a torturous service stopping about 20 Times, and it’s no quickler the previous set up where you’d change half way and travel on fast or semi fast services.

A lot of people don't like changing trains, especially at big stations like those in Manchester, so without those direct links they wouldn't use fast or semi-fast trains, they'd go by car (if at all).

As well as bringing in passengers in that way, though, the cross-Manchester Northern services provide a real, cheaper, alternative to TPE. For example, £8.50 Wigan - Leeds, or £10 Wigan - York, which is really good value for money, if you don't mind the longer journey time.

Far from fewer point to point journey opportunities, I would contend that most passengers want more of them. Again, people don't like changing trains; for a huge proportion of the population, it's a flat 'no'.

 

[Bantamzen]

In reality, the link is a torturous service stopping about 20 Times, and it’s no quickler the previous set up where you’d change half way and travel on fast or semi fast services.

As you say Meadowhall / Sheffield via Huddersfield & Barnsley would be too long a journey to be very popular. A through service would take the best part of two hours, so a four hour round trip to either would not attract the leisure passenger, after all London would only be a slightly longer journey. And as I've suggested above, I'm not sure there really is that much demand for train services to either place. Leeds & Manchester are much more accessible for rail passengers, and for those determined to go to Meadowhall the drive is a heck of a lot quicker.

What would be more popular for Bradford & Calder Valley based passengers would be the link to Manchester Airport. But until Manchester's infrastructure gets the investment it needs, this is probably going to have to remain a pipe dream. However a more reliable & regular connection at Huddersfield, where boarding the TPE Airport services would be easier than in central Manchester might be an idea. So if the two companies could somehow link up to use the Bradford-Huddersfield shuttle as a feeder onto the TPEs, this would keep that service viable and make it more attractive to passengers who otherwise might not bother with the train at all for Manchester Airport. And if somehow it could be made half hourly, it might even prove to be some competition with the X63, being now somewhat quicker than the bus which is timetabled at 45 minutes without any traffic delays.

 

[AndyHudds]

You are right that direct service from Bradford to Meadowhall wd be popular.

An alternative means of improving connectivity might be to extend the admittedly slow Sheffield to Huddersfield service to Halifax and Bradford. Wd remove underused and wasteful shuttle from BDF to HUDD. Free up space at HUDD too. Probably not possible to do but dont recall that current connections at HUDD instead are good.

It's a travesty for Brighouse is the curtailing of the service at Bradford, meaning it only has one service an hour direct to Leeds. I'm surprised Calderdale Council haven't erupted over that.

 

[Glenn1969]

TBH it wasn't much use because it was almost always overtaken by the via Dewsbury service so they were effectively left with a useful hourly service anyway. I suggested on a HADRAG Facebook post that the Brad- Hudd shuttle be linked to the Hudd-Picc stopper if that is returned to Northern. That would fulfil the TSR 3 per hour Bradford/Halifax to Manchester

 

[IanXC]

Frustratingly, the only hope for a second "fast" Sheffield - Leeds service was going to be a two coach 195 (with even fewer seats than the 158s that run via Barnsley) - it'd be much better to run such a service as an extension of the St Pancras services.

There are currently 1x CrossCountry (presumably your 'first' express) and 2x Northern fast (Wakefield Kirkgate, Barnsley, Meadowhall) each hour (which load reasonably well for end to end journeys).

There's nothing to say that the proposed Nottingham to Bradford via Westgate and Leeds would be a 2 car. The constraint is platform 17 at Leeds. From Westgate and going to Bradford you wouldn't use that platform in a month of Sundays.

I suggested on a HADRAG Facebook post that the Brad- Hudd shuttle be linked to the Hudd-Picc stopper if that is returned to Northern. That would fulfil the TSR 3 per hour Bradford/Halifax to Manchester

The Piccadilly to Huddersfield stopper is being extended by TPE to Wakefield Kirkgate in May which pretty much ends that idea. Probably higher priority that Wakefield gets a Manchester service than Halifax and Bradford get a third one too.

 

[Glenn1969]

The 3rd service Bradford- Manchester was one of the unfulfilled TSR commitments. Will the Wakefield extension actually happen or will it be vetoed by NR at the last minute?

 

[IanXC]

The 3rd service Bradford- Manchester was one of the unfulfilled TSR commitments. Will the Wakefield extension actually happen or will it be vetoed by NR at the last minute?

Well it's been uploaded (and can be seen on Real Time Trains and the like) but we're not at the cut off yet...

 

[Kite159]

A completely crayonist idea, put 170s on Leeds - Nottingham/Lincolns and the 195s on Harrogate loop services.

Although you will have the issue of platform 17 at Leeds not being long enough to handle a 170 + something else

 

[Bletchleyite]

A completely crayonist idea, put 170s on Leeds - Nottingham/Lincolns and the 195s on Harrogate loop services.

Although you will have the issue of platform 17 at Leeds not being long enough to handle a 170 + something else

Yes, definitely do. 170s are awful for local stopping services - slow and fuel inefficient.

Northern in my view made a massive mistake ordering new stock for longer distance services. They'd have been better doing what LM did with the Class 172s and ordering it as direct Pacer and 150 replacements, using 170s and 158s on long distance services and 156s on the branches. To be fair, they could still just put 195s on local services - while they have a low density seating layout they do also have standbacks which are ideal for busy commuter services - in my observation they are almost as good as people eaters as Thameslink 700s.