What could be done to make the Whitby line better?

[yorksrob]

mod note- split from:

May 2023 changes

Question when would we likely start to see the timetable changes for May 2023. Heard TFW were going to run a improved swanline service in addition to the Manchester services just wondering if it will be a hourly service

www.railforums.co.uk

In spite of the timetable change, services between West Yorkshire and Whitby continue to deteriorate.

There's still no easement to enable people to use the cheaper route via Yarm for the 12:00 arrival in Whitby, except on Saturday, making it impossible any other day.

The evening situation is even worse. There's no satisfactory way to get back to Wakefield from the 19:42 departure - the only way is via Doncaster.

The 19:42 does get into York for 22:19. Guess when the last train to Wakefield via Leeds leaves York ! Yes, it's 22:19.

What a complete shambles the railway is.

 

[mangyiscute]

In spite of the timetable change, services between West Yorkshire and Whitby continue to deteriorate.

There's still no easement to enable people to use the cheaper route via Yarm for the 12:00 arrival in Whitby, except on Saturday, making it impossible any other day.

The evening situation is even worse. There's no satisfactory way to get back to Wakefield from the 19:42 departure - the only way is via Doncaster.

The 19:42 does get into York for 22:19. Guess when the last train to Wakefield via Leeds leaves York ! Yes, it's 22:19.

What a complete shambles the railway is.

I would argue that if you want to fix Whitby to West Yorkshire links, then get arriva to stop timetabling their buses to arrive into scarborough as the train to york leaves. Then this route would be much faster and also every hour

 

[yorksrob]

I would argue that if you want to fix Whitby to West Yorkshire links, then get arriva to stop timetabling their buses to arrive into scarborough as the train to york leaves. Then this route would be much faster and also every hour

At the end of the day, bus services are a different industry, so I would rather the rail industry got its own house in order and put in the necessary easements and connections to enable people to do a day trip by rail from one side of Yorkshire to the other for a reasonable price.

 

[mangyiscute]

Well the issue is that that journey is just such a long way round that i don't think many people will be doing it, so there's less incentive for them to make the times work. Realistically they should look into reopening the Scarborough to Whitby line (i can dream)

 

[Bald Rick]

At the end of the day, bus services are a different industry

They are within the transport industry, just like our trains.

 

[yorksrob]

They are within the transport industry, just like our trains.

They are not within the railway industry.

It really shouldn't be beyond the wit of the industry to arrange connections and prices so that someone from my part of West Yorkshire can undertake a day trip to Whitby by train for a not extortionate price.

 

[geordieblue]

They are not within the railway industry.

It really shouldn't be beyond the wit of the industry to arrange connections and prices so that someone from my part of West Yorkshire can undertake a day trip to Whitby by train for a not extortionate price.

Why not by bus?

 

[yorksrob]

Why not by bus?

York to Leeds is the limit my bladder can take by bus.

Trust me, I've tried it.

 

[Llandudno]

York to Leeds is the limit my bladder can take by bus.

Trust me, I've tried it.

Train to Malton then Coastliner to/from Whitby only £2 each way (£2.50 from November)

Mind you I think I would board the Coastliner at York as attempting to use TransPennine is like playing Russian Roulette!

 

[BrianW]

York to Leeds is the limit my bladder can take by bus.

Trust me, I've tried it.

For those with a stronger bladder (unless the bus has a toilet, or you are prepared to break journey en route) the 840/843 Coastliner is 2ph Leeds- York- Malton then alternately 1ph to Scarborough (Peasholme Park for miniature railway to Scalby Mills) and 1ph to Pickering (for North Yks Moors Railway) and Thornton-le-dale and every 2h to Whitby. Over 3h, of which much is very lovely, for £2 e.w. (or free for an old git goat like me!)

 

[Bald Rick]

York to Leeds is the limit my bladder can take by bus.

Trust me, I've tried it.

Train to Malton then Coastliner to/from Whitby only £2 each way (£2.50 from November)

Mind you I think I would board the Coastliner at York as attempting to use TransPennine is like playing Russian Roulette!

It’s only an hour on the X93/94 express bus Scarboro’ to Whitby, rather shorter than the journey time Leeds - York by bus and therefore @yorksrob will be fine.

 

[yorksrob]

I have actually used the bus from Scarborough to Whitby before.

That still doesn't explain why the train service to Whitby from West Yorkshire is being allowed to deteriorate.

 

[Bald Rick]

I have actually used the bus from Scarborough to Whitby before.

That still doesn't explain why the train service to Whitby from West Yorkshire is being allowed to deteriorate.

The connections, rather than the service, surely.

perhaps because other connections have been prioritised, as almost everyone travelling West yorks to Whitby gets the bus? You can’t have good connections everywhere to everywhere.

 

[yorksrob]

The connections, rather than the service, surely.

perhaps because other connections have been prioritised, as almost everyone travelling West yorks to Whitby gets the bus? You can’t have good connections everywhere to everywhere.

You can have a connection in the evening by timing the earlier mentioned evening York - Leeds service to depart five minutes after the Middlesborough train arrives, instead of at the same time.

You could make the service affordable by allowing Whitby passengers on the TPE morning service that connects to get into Whitby at 12:00 to use off-peak fares.

None of this requires major timetable recasts or fares reform.

 

[mangyiscute]

You can have a connection in the evening by timing the earlier mentioned evening York - Leeds service to depart five minutes after the Middlesborough train arrives, instead of at the same time.

You could make the service affordable by allowing Whitby passengers on the TPE morning service that connects to get into Whitby at 12:00 to use off-peak fares.

None of this requires major timetable recasts or fares reform.

It's never as simple as "run this train 5 minutes later"
It gets to Leeds via cross gates just 3 minutes before a hull to Leeds train that uses the same track, so there is no way that this train could run 5 minutes later. It also runs through the junction at Todmorden about 5 minutes before a train that it crosses over tracks with, so it couldn't run any later here either. Plus what about all those passengers who's connections you destroy in Leeds. You have to understand that there are literally billions of possible journeys, and not every single one can have a connection that works.
In the morning, it's a lot faster and more frequent and probably cheaper to go via Scarborough, so I don't get your complaint.
I was quite annoyed when the southbound connection from the Avanti service from Carlisle onto the reading bound XC was destroyed, resulting in an hour longer journey. But this allows for much better reliability and Stafford passengers to have more direct services, so I understand that the passengers who used this change ( a much greater number than the ones you are talking about) will have to accept that it is an overall benefit even if they lose out.

If you want to suggest changes, you have to prove that a) they actually fit in the timetable (yours doesn't) and b) it won't negatively impact other passengers (yours will cause other missed connections)

 

[Greybeard33]

For those with a stronger bladder (unless the bus has a toilet, or you are prepared to break journey en route) the 840/843 Coastliner is 2ph Leeds- York- Malton then alternately 1ph to Scarborough (Peasholme Park for miniature railway to Scalby Mills) and 1ph to Pickering (for North Yks Moors Railway) and Thornton-le-dale and every 2h to Whitby. Over 3h, of which much is very lovely, for £2 e.w. (or free for an old git goat like me!)

I believe the Whitby Coastliner makes a toilet stop at Malton (it certainly used to a few years ago), so no need for a strong bladder.

 

[geordieblue]

I have actually used the bus from Scarborough to Whitby before.

That still doesn't explain why the train service to Whitby from West Yorkshire is being allowed to deteriorate.

Almost nobody will get the train to Whitby from West Yorkshire. It takes 3 hours from York alone. If you’re coming from Normanton that’s another hour. The prospect of an eight hour round trip when the bus is far far shorter (and the car even less) is hugely unappealing. Perhaps that’s why the service is being allowed to deteriorate!

 

[yorksrob]

Almost nobody will get the train to Whitby from West Yorkshire. It takes 3 hours from York alone. If you’re coming from Normanton that’s another hour. The prospect of an eight hour round trip when the bus is far far shorter (and the car even less) is hugely unappealing. Perhaps that’s why the service is being allowed to deteriorate!

I was once on a TPE service to Middlesborough that got diverted at the last minute to Darlington. There were large numbers asking about onward travel to Whitby and the station staff were telling people doing a daytrip not to bother. The remainder got the train over to Middlesborough which by this time had missed the intended connection to Whitby. Those of us remaining filled out a minibus.

 

[geordieblue]

I was once on a TPE service to Middlesborough that got diverted at the last minute to Darlington. There were large numbers asking about onward travel to Whitby and the station staff were telling people doing a daytrip not to bother. The remainder got the train over to Middlesborough which by this time had missed the intended connection to Whitby. Those of us remaining filled out a minibus.

Most of whom, I imagine, had come from York (and a minibus is hardly encouraging either). The market for day trips from West Yorkshire is not covered by train; I had a look at Normanton-Whitby timings earlier (but you could extrapolate it to Bradford, or Huddersfield, or Cas) and the maximum time you could have in Whitby was four hours! Nobody is travelling eight hours for that length of time by the sea.

It would be great to have an improved rail link from West Yorkshire to Whitby - I have previously suggested a link from Battersby to the ECML, with a south-facing junction around Northallerton, which would cut journey times to York by around ninety minutes. But the line in its current form does not support a frequent service and the timetable will always be designed around schools traffic as opposed to a very small market (for rail at least) from West Yorkshire.

 

[yorksrob]

Most of whom, I imagine, had come from York (and a minibus is hardly encouraging either). The market for day trips from West Yorkshire is not covered by train; I had a look at Normanton-Whitby timings earlier (but you could extrapolate it to Bradford, or Huddersfield, or Cas) and the maximum time you could have in Whitby was four hours! Nobody is travelling eight hours for that length of time by the sea.

It would be great to have an improved rail link from West Yorkshire to Whitby - I have previously suggested a link from Battersby to the ECML, with a south-facing junction around Northallerton, which would cut journey times to York by around ninety minutes. But the line in its current form does not support a frequent service and the timetable will always be designed around schools traffic as opposed to a very small market (for rail at least) from West Yorkshire.

Considering how awkward the service is from the South, and how many people from the TPE had given up by that point, I'd say a full mini bus is pretty spectacular. It certainly shows that there is a desire to use the Whitby line from the South.

As for whether they all came from York, that's pure speculation.

Your final assertion that "the line doesn't support a more frequent service" is incorrect because there is also a large proportion of passengers from Middlesborough and Teeside who use the service, however I feel that this line of argument will quickly be shunted off to the speculative ideas section.

 

[mangyiscute]

Your final assertion that "the line doesn't support a more frequent service" is incorrect because there is also a large proportion of passengers from Middlesborough and Teeside who use the service, however I feel that this line of argument will quickly be shunted off to the speculative ideas section.

No it's because the line is single-track, so how are you meant to run extra trains without infrastructure investment?
Whether this investment should be made is another question, and I personally think it would be much better spent on improving the bus service and integrating it alongside the trains to offer better connections from trains to buses in scarborough and middlesborough - the buses to middlesborough are faster than the train. With just a small amount of investment, you could create integrated tickets and re time the buses to connect with the trains properly at both ends of the route, providing an hourly service to Whitby from the north and the south. But this really is more for the speculative discussion section. When i took this line in february, the train was pretty much empty besides from the way back when it was timed for schoolchildren to use - I don't think this is the right place for investment when there are other places in much greater need.

At the end of the day, I have listed the reasons why your wished change to the timetable cannot be made, and you have just ignored me. When are you going to accept that other peoples needs on the railway also matter?

 

[yorksrob]

No it's because the line is single-track, so how are you meant to run extra trains without infrastructure investment?
Whether this investment should be made is another question, and I personally think it would be much better spent on improving the bus service and integrating it alongside the trains to offer better connections from trains to buses in scarborough and middlesborough - the buses to middlesborough are faster than the train. With just a small amount of investment, you could create integrated tickets and re time the buses to connect with the trains properly at both ends of the route, providing an hourly service to Whitby from the north and the south. But this really is more for the speculative discussion section. When i took this line in february, the train was pretty much empty besides from the way back when it was timed for schoolchildren to use - I don't think this is the right place for investment when there are other places in much greater need.

At the end of the day, I have listed the reasons why your wished change to the timetable cannot be made, and you have just ignored me. When are you going to accept that other peoples needs on the railway also matter?

I thought you were referring to demand.

You've listed potential reasons why some timetable changes might be difficult. However, since it was possible to get from the evening service through to Wakefield via Leeds last year, it stands to reason that it could be possible in future.

It would be well worth spending the money to get a 2-hourly service on the line itself at least, as this would be of great value to residents and visitors alike.

 

[geordieblue]

I thought you were referring to demand.

You've listed potential reasons why some timetable changes might be difficult. However, since it was possible to get from the evening service through to Wakefield via Leeds last year, it stands to reason that it could be possible in future.

Well, it doesn’t, because the number of people making day trips from West Yorkshire to Whitby by train is penny numbers. I doubt it is as many as one a day.
I note that speculation about how many could from York is dismissed yet speculation about how many could have come from West Yorkshire is seen as very natural and is used to support your argument! Despite York being an order of magnitude closer.
And the infrastructure on the line (and I guess the NYMR trains to an extent) is why a more frequent service cannot be run - I wasn’t referring to demand - there is clearly demand for trips to Whitby, it is just incredibly poorly served by train - *particularly* from West Yorkshire.

 

[yorksrob]

Well, it doesn’t, because the number of people making day trips from West Yorkshire to Whitby by train is penny numbers. I doubt it is as many as one a day.
I note that speculation about how many could from York is dismissed yet speculation about how many could have come from West Yorkshire is seen as very natural and is used to support your argument! Despite York being an order of magnitude closer.
And the infrastructure on the line (and I guess the NYMR trains to an extent) is why a more frequent service cannot be run - I wasn’t referring to demand - there is clearly demand for trips to Whitby, it is just incredibly poorly served by train - *particularly* from West Yorkshire.

Well, perhaps every passenger on the mini-bus (except me) was from York.

It still illustrates demand from the South and frankly that's one reason why the line needs to be improved to enable a two hourly service. This is a perfectly reasonable aspiration for users of the route.

And sorry, "penny numbers" has nowt to do with it. It was possible to have a series of connections to via Leeds to Wakefield in the very near past with the same infrastructure, therefore it is possible in future.

 

[geordieblue]

Well, perhaps every passenger on the mini-bus (except me) was from York.

It still illustrates demand from the South and frankly that's one reason why the line needs to be improved to enable a two hourly service. This is a perfectly reasonable aspiration for users of the route.

And sorry, "penny numbers" has nowt to do with it. It was possible to have a series of connections to via Leeds to Wakefield in the very near past with the same infrastructure, therefore it is possible in future.

I agree that the line should be improved. I’ve never said I don’t think it should. However I do not think the timetable should be arranged for the benefit of West Yorkshire passengers (as you originally argued - switching to ‘the South’ is a nice way of getting around the fact that York (not in West Yorkshire) is a much more likely destination).
The other thing is diagrams - not my forte - but I imagine there is a diagramming reason why there is no longer a connection (and, to be fair, providing a connection from Middlesbrough to Leeds to Wakefield or wherever is probably not paramount in planners’ minds).

 

[yorksrob]

I agree that the line should be improved. I’ve never said I don’t think it should. However I do not think the timetable should be arranged for the benefit of West Yorkshire passengers (as you originally argued - switching to ‘the South’ is a nice way of getting around the fact that York (not in West Yorkshire) is a much more likely destination).
The other thing is diagrams - not my forte - but I imagine there is a diagramming reason why there is no longer a connection (and, to be fair, providing a connection from Middlesbrough to Leeds to Wakefield or wherever is probably not paramount in planners’ minds).

I suspect the reason has more to do with TPE not running a proper service.

 

[geordieblue]

I suspect the reason has more to do with TPE not running a proper service.

Any engagement with the rest of my points?

 

[yorksrob]

Any engagement with the rest of my points?

Generally, I disagree with them. There was a route through recently and it needs to come back.

The longer term solution is a decent service on the Whitby line though.

 

[geordieblue]

it needs to come back.

Why?

 

[yorksrob]

Why?

Whitby line services start from a sub-standard base owing to their unusually low frequency. It is unacceptable to allow their onward connections to progressively decline continually.