What counts as London?

[CrazyRupes]

I appologise if this has been discussed before. I was looking up the price for a rail ticket from Three Bridges to Twickenham for the rugby internationals. The suggested route on the website was Three Bridges to Clapham Juntion and Clapham Junction to Twickenham. The website also said "ROUTE OF TICKET NOT VIA LONDON". Therefore I was actually wondering, as Clapham Junction and Twickenham are in London's Metropolitan area, what counts as London in this case?

Thanks in advance for any responses

 

[Ivo]

In this sense, London means the stations designated as London Terminals. As a general rule of thumb, this means avoid Zone 1, but there is a specific list of stations that can and can't be used. I believe Elephant & Castle is permissible, but only it, and even then I'm not sure.

 

[Eagle]

The definitive list of London Terminals.

Shoreditch High Street is also permissible despite being wholly in Zone 1 (although obviously it's not permitted on the OP's ticket as it's not a valid mapped route for that journey to begin with).

 

[CrazyRupes]

Thats interesting. Thanks for the info Ivo and Eagle

 

[RJ]

I appologise if this has been discussed before. I was looking up the price for a rail ticket from Three Bridges to Twickenham for the rugby internationals. The suggested route on the website was Three Bridges to Clapham Juntion and Clapham Junction to Twickenham. The website also said "ROUTE OF TICKET NOT VIA LONDON". Therefore I was actually wondering, as Clapham Junction and Twickenham are in London's Metropolitan area, what counts as London in this case?

Thanks in advance for any responses

Where "London" is referred to under the Route part of the ticket, the correct answer is the London Routeing Group. The stations can be found on Page 3 of the Group Stations document on the ATOC website. The railway's definition of London Terminals is an irrelevant and seperate concept.

In this sense, London means the stations designated as London Terminals.

The definitive list of London Terminals.

There is some confusion here between the concept of Station Groups (i.e London Terminals, shown under the origin/destination) and Group Stations (shown under "Route.") The question the OP is asking is referring to the definition of "London" for routing purposes, not for ticket retailing purposes. The two are not interchangeable or mutually exclusive, as you can buy tickets to some London Terminals routed Not Via London. In some cases, it's the only route option.

 

[wintonian]

Yes it is confusing and occasionally we do seem to get them mixed up here.

'London Terminals' is only relevant as the collection of stations referred to as such in the destination field of most tickets to London.

The London stations 'group' as defined by the ATOC routing guide is relevant to determining the route you may take to your destination.

Unless I have missed something?

 

[craigwilson]

...as you can buy tickets to some London Terminals routed Not Via London. In some cases, it's the only route option.

Are there any examples of this that you could quote? I've been trying to work out what flows might have this routeing, but nothing pops out at me!!

 

[wintonian]

Are there any examples of this that you could quote? I've been trying to work out what flows might have this routeing, but nothing pops out at me!!

No idea,

But you can buy a City Thameslink to London Terminals and Moorgate to London Terminals, despite both City Thameslink and Moorgate being London Terminals.

 

[RJ]

Are there any examples of this that you could quote? I've been trying to work out what flows might have this routeing, but nothing pops out at me!!

Try flows like Peckham Rye to Vauxhall.

 

[wintonian]

Try flows like Peckham Rye to Vauxhall, or South Bermondsey to Elephant and Castle.

Elephant and Castle isn't a 'London Terminal'.

 

[RJ]

Elephant and Castle isn't a 'London Terminal'.

No, it's not.

 

[CrazyRupes]

Thanks for everyone who has replied.
Your discussions bring up a point in my mind. If I ask for a Three Bridges to Twickenham ticket why doesnt the national enquiries websites tell me the valid / invalid routes in detail without having to visit other pages. And additionally where is the information at Three Bridges station? Not all the staff members at Three Bridges have given me sound information in the past, for example a member of staff there encourged me to get on a Southern train when I believed I had a FGW only ticket.

 

[wintonian]

Thanks for everyone who has replied.
Your discussions bring up a point in my mind. If I ask for a Three Bridges to Twickenham ticket why does the national enquiries websites tell me the valid / invalid routes in detail without having to visit other pages. And additionally where is the information at Three Bridges station? Not all the staff members at Three Bridges have given me sound information in the past, for example a member of staff there encourged me to get on a Southern train when I believed I had a FGW only ticket.

The journey planners are 'programmed' with the routing guide in order to present valid itinerarys - however they are not always correct in their interpretations.

Permitted routes are defined by the Routing Guide which is given authority by section 13 of the NRCoC.

Section 10 of the NRCoC deals with tickets restricted to one TOC or another and this restriction will be shown on the ticket, if one applies.

 

[dzug2]

Not all the staff members at Three Bridges have given me sound information in the past, for example a member of staff there encourged me to get on a Southern train when I believed I had a FGW only ticket.

Given that FGW do not serve Three Bridges at all that's a curious belief.

 

[Paul Kelly]

The journey planners are 'programmed' with the routing guide in order to present valid itinerarys - however they are not always correct in their interpretations.

The problem there is that they are all programmed to first determine a route based on fastest journey time, minimum number of changes etc. without any reference to the routeing guide, and then they only apply the routeing guide as a last step to check whether or not the route they've picked is permitted.

Analysing the routeing guide to show all permitted routes is an incredibly complicated computing problem (due mainly to the immense complexity of the routeing guide) which has not been fully mastered by anyone in the 15 years or so that the routeing guide has been in existence. TransCanBeCheaper and CORE (the latter no longer in operation) have come much closer than any "official" source of information.

 

[wintonian]

The problem there is that they are all programmed to first determine a route based on fastest journey time, minimum number of changes etc. without any reference to the routeing guide, and then they only apply the routeing guide as a last step to check whether or not the route they've picked is permitted.

Analysing the routeing guide to show all permitted routes is an incredibly complicated computing problem (due mainly to the immense complexity of the routeing guide) which has not been fully mastered by anyone in the 15 years or so that the routeing guide has been in existence. TransCanBeCheaper and CORE (the latter no longer in operation) have come much closer than any "official" source of information.

Again I ask; what was wrong with 'any reasonable route'? - Too complicated perhaps? :roll:

 

[Eagle]

Again I ask; what was wrong with 'any reasonable route'? - Too complicated perhaps? :roll:

Because you can't guarantee consistency.

Reasonability is subjective; the RG is objective.

 

[CrazyRupes]

Given that FGW do not serve Three Bridges at all that's a curious belief.

Well ok its some First company then. Im sorry i said First Great Weastern instead of First Capital Connect, the comments still valid though imo.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Because you can't guarantee consistency.

Reasonability is subjective; the RG is objective.

But why can't you guarantee consistency, if a computer with less computing power thn my wristwatch can land a man on the moon 40 odd years ago, why cant a computer give you all the information you want?

 

[wintonian]

Because you can't guarantee consistency.

Reasonability is subjective; the RG is objective.

and we have consistency now in the way the RG is interpreted and enforced do we?

 

[Eagle]

But why can't you guarantee consistency, if a computer with less computing power thn my wristwatch can land a man on the moon 40 odd years ago, why cant a computer give you all the information you want?

No you misunderstand me, I was saying that the old-fashioned way of "Any reasonable route" (that is, let the ticket inspector essentially decide on the spot whether it's valid) was inherently inconsistent. The current method using the routing guide, although there are a few ambiguities here and there, is logically consistent, and as you say it's actually pretty easy to work it out with a computer, assuming it's programmed correctly of course...

 

[CrazyRupes]

No you misunderstand me, I was saying that the old-fashioned way of "Any reasonable route" (that is, let the ticket inspector essentially decide on the spot whether it's valid) was inherently inconsistent. The current method using the routing guide, although there are a few ambiguities here and there, is logically consistent, and as you say it's actually pretty easy to work it out with a computer, assuming it's programmed correctly of course...

Ok then sorry i misunderstood

 

[maniacmartin]

if a computer with less computing power thn my wristwatch can land a man on the moon 40 odd years ago, why cant a computer give you all the information you want?

The computers that put the man on the moon were less powerful than the original Playstation. We aren't talking about computing one person's journey though, as these websites are used by millions of people who want a result quickly. Putting a man on the moon was all calculation, whereas routeing is about exploring masses of data and trying different permutations.

 

[RJ]

Thanks for everyone who has replied.
Your discussions bring up a point in my mind. If I ask for a Three Bridges to Twickenham ticket why doesnt the national enquiries websites tell me the valid / invalid routes in detail without having to visit other pages.

Sadly it's never that simple. If you want to start asking questions about validities, that's when things start to get complicated. The complexity of the service patterns and route network means that determining a permitted route for longer journeys is often a tricky affair. National Rail is a customer geared website that will give you a "yes" or "no" answer if you tell it exactly what route you wish to take, rather than bombard you with information overload!

 

[CrazyRupes]

Sadly it's never that simple. If you want to start asking questions about validities, that's when things start to get complicated. The complexity of the service patterns and route network means that determining a permitted route for longer journeys is often a tricky affair. National Rail is a customer geared website that will give you a "yes" or "no" answer if you tell it exactly what route you wish to take, rather than bombard you with information overload!

Google maps, for example, gives you multiple car driving routes without information overload. The question is how the data is presented. The website cant really be customer based unless it gives you all the required info.

In my case im asking about the valid routes, of which I believe there are 2, Three Bridges > Clapham Junction > Twickenham or Three Birdges > Redhill > Reading > Twickenham. All Im asking is that the website should say you cant use London Victoria, London Waterloo and London Bridge as a routing point. Im pretty certain thats not too tricky for a computer to work out lol.

 

[Paul Kelly]

In my case im asking about the valid routes, of which I believe there are 2

Unfortunately it's nowhere near that simple. Without even starting to look at routeing guide maps, permitted routes include the shortest route and all routes within 3 miles of the shortest route. The rail network around south London is quite complex, and there are at least 50 possible unique routes between Three Bridges and Twickenham that fit those criteria.

Then you need to start looking at mapped routes too. The amount of possibilities gets out of hand very quickly. The most possible routes within 3 miles of the shortest that I've managed to calculate so far is from Dover Priory to Liverpool Lime Street - there are over 9,000!

 

[RJ]

Google maps, for example, gives you multiple car driving routes without information overload. The question is how the data is presented. The website cant really be customer based unless it gives you all the required info.

In my case im asking about the valid routes, of which I believe there are 2, Three Bridges > Clapham Junction > Twickenham or Three Birdges > Redhill > Reading > Twickenham. All Im asking is that the website should say you cant use London Victoria, London Waterloo and London Bridge as a routing point. Im pretty certain thats not too tricky for a computer to work out lol.

Rest assured, it's a bit more complicated than that! You can't go via Reading with a Twickenham to Three Bridges ticket anyway - if National Rail states that two tickets are required then it's likely not to be a permitted route. National Rail sometimes misses anomalous routeing validities which can be found if you're good at calculating validity manually, but that's a subject for another day.

Having had a very brief look at manually calculating the permitted routes, I've identified the following as permitted routes;

Three Bridges to East Croydon via Purley
Various routes through South London from East Croydon to Clapham Junction
Clapham Junction to Twickenham direct via Richmond.

You could also go down to Horsham then back up to Clapham Junction via Dorking, Epsom, Sutton, Mitcham Junction and Balham.

That said, check out www.trainscanbecheaper.info . There is a powerful tool on there which can check permitted routes if you just hold one A-B ticket. What's shown on there is best off double checked manually however, especially with the mileages.

 

[wintonian]

That said, check out www.trainscanbecheaper.info . There is a powerful tool on there which can check permitted routes if you just hold one A-B ticket. What's shown on there is best off double checked manually however, especially with the mileages.

I would advise caution when using that tool, for example it tells me that Basingsroke to Brighton is a permitted route when travelling via Banbury - London - Hayes & Harlington - Clapham Junction (admittedly the non existing passenger service from HAY - CLJ is shown in the maps).

 

[RJ]

I would advise caution when using that tool, for example it tells me that Basingsroke to Brighton is a permitted route when travelling via Banbury - London - Hayes & Harlington - Clapham Junction (admittedly the non existing passenger service from HAY - CLJ is shown in the maps).

What's wrong with that? There's a weekly service from Ealing Broadway to Kensington Olympia which should be usable if setting out from Basingstoke first thing on a Tuesday morning.

 

[Eagle]

Except it's being withdrawn in six weeks' time.

 

[wintonian]

What's wrong with that? There's a weekly service from Ealing Broadway to Kensington Olympia which should be usable if setting out from Basingstoke first thing on a Tuesday morning.

I forgot about it and I know you wouldn't have any issues with showing someone at Banbury a Basingstoke to Brighton ticket, but others might not enjoy the ensuing lengthy conversation about it quit as much.