What does “Any Permitted Route” really mean?

[Purple Orange]

I’m hoping to get some guidance on what “Any Permitted” means on the potential route if I buy an open return ticket. Often I have had to travel to more than one destination and I’m not sure if an open return ticket would work or not?

Let’s say I’m travelling between Manchester & London, but I need to also go to Sheffield. Does an open return ticket enable me to travel from Manchester Piccadilly to London Euston, then return from London St. Pancras to Sheffield, then Sheffield to Manchester Piccadilly?

 

[Haywain]

I’m hoping to get some guidance on what “Any Permitted” means on the potential route if I buy an open return ticket. Often I have had to travel to more than one destination and I’m not sure if an open return ticket would work or not?

Let’s say I’m travelling between Manchester & London, but I need to also go to Sheffield. Does an open return ticket enable me to travel from Manchester Piccadilly to London Euston, then return from London St. Pancras to Sheffield, then Sheffield to Manchester Piccadilly?

Some do, some don’t, it depends on which stations and what routes are permitted for the specific ticket. You’ll need to provide more details to get a better answer.

 

[Purple Orange]

Some do, some don’t, it depends on which stations and what routes are permitted for the specific ticket. You’ll need to provide more details to get a better answer.

That’s the question - what constitutes a permitted route. It’s not immediately obvious in many cases.

 

[alistairlees]

That’s the question - what constitutes a permitted route. It’s not immediately obvious in many cases.

Routes (such as "Any Permitted") and ticket types (such as "Open Return", which most likely means "Anytime Return" or "Off-Peak Return" or "Super Off-Peak Return", in RDG's current language) are not related.

 

[JonathanH]

That’s the question - what constitutes a permitted route. It’s not immediately obvious in many cases.

You can refer to the routeing guide here
http://data.atoc.org/routeing-guide

Routeing Guide Data
This guide shows the full range of permitted routes available for use with tickets on
the National Rail network. The content has been approved by the Department for
Transport. If you are planning a journey we would strongly advise you to make use of
the Journey Planner at www.nationalrail.co.uk. Any ticket indicated for use in
conjunction with a particular journey when using the Journey Planner will
automatically be valid for the route and service indicated

 

[yorkie]

I’m hoping to get some guidance on what “Any Permitted” means on the potential route if I buy an open return ticket. Often I have had to travel to more than one destination and I’m not sure if an open return ticket would work or not?

As stated in the Conditions of Travel, you may take any permitted route to your destination.

This is defined in the NRCoT as:

13.1. Your Ticket may show that it is valid only on certain train services, such as those of a particular Train Company, or on trains travelling via a certain route or routes.

If no specific route or Train Company is shown, then (subject to any time restrictions for the type of fare you have purchased) it will be valid on:
13.1.1. any direct train service between the station(s) shown on your Ticket;
13.1.2. by any services (including any change of trains) over the shortest route which can be used by scheduled passenger services between the stations shown on your Ticket;
13.1.3. any other routes as shown in the ‘National Routeing Guide’.

The easiest way to check for valid routes is to use the journey planner at www.nationalrail.co.uk. You can also check the National Routeing Guide which is available at data.atoc.org/routeing-guide or ask the Ticket seller when you buy your Ticket

I'll add that you do not need to use NRE to do this; any booking site will do.

Let’s say I’m travelling between Manchester & London, but I need to also go to Sheffield. Does an open return ticket enable me to travel from Manchester Piccadilly to London Euston, then return from London St. Pancras to Sheffield, then Sheffield to Manchester Piccadilly?

Yes it does.

Indeed the existence in this case of a cheaper 'via Chesterfield' fare automatically makes the 'Any Permitted' valid.

For more information, see: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/railuk-fares-ticketing-guide-section-3-routeing.70716/ (note that this may not be fully up to date but the basic principles have not changed)

 

[RJ]

I’m hoping to get some guidance on what “Any Permitted” means on the potential route if I buy an open return ticket. Often I have had to travel to more than one destination and I’m not sure if an open return ticket would work or not?

That is a question that few people know how to answer. Expect a blank look if you ask for a full list of routes your ticket entitles you to take.

As Yorkie has posted the answers lie within Section 13 of the Conditions of Travel.

The methods of checking if a route is valid are not easy for anybody to use. You can use the National Rail Journey planner to verify if the ticket you want to buy can be used, but it is complicated to do this. You can also use the National Routeing Guide, but it takes a lot of commitment to learn how to use it.

The simple answer to your question is you can go via Sheffield on a London to Manchester Any Permitted ticket. The more you know about what your ticket entitles you to, the more value you can get out of it.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The NRE web site can draw you a map of valid routes for your ticket in its journey planner, based on the Routeing Guide.
I have very rarely used it, and I suspect it is rather too simplistic and won't show ALL alternative routes. just the most obvious ones.
Apart from via Sheffield or Lichfield, Manchester-London Any Permitted includes via Birmingham, Oxford/High Wycombe, including many alternative routes through the West Midlands, with any operator on the line of route.
If you put the desired route into the NRE journey planner, it will tell you if the fare is valid by that route (or if not it will say you need multiple tickets for that journey).

Also beware that "route restrictions" can also double as "operator restrictions" even though it may not say that on the ticket.
eg A long distance ticket to London "Via Peterborough" pretty much forces you onto LNER, and "Via Rugby" onto Avanti.
"Via High Wycombe" puts you on Chiltern, "Via Cheltenham" onto XC, "Via Hereford" onto TfW.

Possibly all this ticketing subtlety will vanish or be much "simplified" under GBR, but the hints are that tickets will still be "Regionalised" in some way (as BR was).

 

[yorkie]

Also beware that "route restrictions" can also double as "operator restrictions" even though it may not say that on the ticket.
eg A long distance ticket to London "Via Peterborough" pretty much forces you onto LNER, and "Via Rugby" onto Avanti.

Not quite; while I agree a via Peterborough restriction put most itineraries on LNER, it's equally valid to take Grand Central, Hull Trains and any other relevant operator between the points states on the ticket.

There is no restriction on a via Peterborough ticket other than you must go via Peterborough.

 

[Bob M]

The NRE web site can draw you a map of valid routes for your ticket in its journey planner, based on the Routeing Guide.

Can you explain how to do this please?

 

[Purple Orange]

Some very informative responses there. Thanks everyone!

 

[cosmo]

The more you know about what your ticket entitles you to, the more value you can get out of it.

Very true.

I've had a return from Newcastle to Harrogate before, that takes 35 minutes to get from York via Knaresborough to Harrogate, but the 1h20 route from Harrogate to York via Burley Park and Leeds is also a "permitted route" even though it's considerably longer... suffice it to say that was my return journey

 

[JB_B]

Can you explain how to do this please?

After you click on the yellow 'Buy Now' button NRE will open a new tab which redirects to the retailer's website. If you switch back to the NRE tab it will show a different screen - 'Summary. Thank your for using National Rail Enquires." - below that there'll be a link labelled "Valid routes for this ticket".

For info, this feature has never worked properly for me. These days it just seems to show a bing map centred on Birch services on the M62.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Can you explain how to do this please?

Well, it used to!
In the current Covid phase, there are so many restrictions to booking (eg compulsory reservation) that the NRE planner often gives very limited results.
Alternative permitted routes work on flexible tickets (ie Anytime or Off Peak), as Advances limit you to one specific train on a specific route.

The nearest I can demonstrate is a return from Hereford to London using the Any Permitted Super Off Peak Return fare of £79.30 (restriction 2Q for valid times).
If you look this up on the NRE Journey Planner for, say, out on June 2 and back on June 3, it offers a set of trains for you to choose at different fares.
Journey Planner - Trains Times and Fares - National Rail Enquiries

Below the box which quotes the £79.30 fare, there is a clickable "Other services you can travel on", and if you click on that it gives you alternative times and routes for that fare.
Normally there would be through trains from Hereford to Paddington via Worcester and Oxford, but with the shortage of Hitachi trains the alternatives are useful:
- via Birmingham New St (to Euston)
- via Newport (and then via Bristol and Bath to Paddington as well as direct).
- via Salisbury (to Waterloo)

In the past I'm sure there was another clickable item which said "Show valid routes on map", but it seems to have vanished.
Maybe it's just too complex with current Covid restrictions.

 

[JB_B]

Very true.

I've had an off-peak return from York to Harrogate before, that takes 35 minutes to get there via Knaresborough, but the 1h20 route via Burley Park and Leeds is also a "permitted route" even though it's considerably longer... suffice it to say that was my return journey

How did you establish that the route via Leeds is a permitted route ( for a York-Harrogate off peak return route . ) ? I didn't think it was.

 

[alistairlees]

How did you establish that the route via Leeds is a permitted route ( for a York-Harrogate off peak return route . ) ? I didn't think it was.

It’s not

 

[cosmo]

It’s not

Ah no sorry it wasn't an off peak return, I'd bought a through ticket from Newcastle. I remember now, will update to clarify! Sorry for the confusion