What ECML timetable improvements would you like to see?

[danbarjon]

Maybe running the third Newcastle via Leeds and Wakefield could be an option. Giving 3tph to all and keeping Newcastle - Leeds links good.

That would be quite good if possible especially with TPE cancellations and XCs ridiculous pricing.

 

[cuccir]

Durham needs at least one London train per hour, two at busy periods. Likewise it needs at least one an hope north to Edinburgh.

To be honest for Durham I'm much more interested in a better spread of services than the raw number per hour.

At the moment, our three southbound services are squashed into a 15 minute period within each hour, followed by a 45 minute gap. This means some services end up packed, while others have barely any people joining them. Other than a slight extra resilience during disruption, it doesn't really feel like 3 trains per hour. Northbound is a little better, though it's still two services within 10 minutes of each other and the third about 20 minutes later.

I get that mid-route we are not a priority, but something with more spread southbound in particular would be great.

 

[A S Leib]

To be honest for Durham I'm much more interested in a better spread of services than the raw number per hour.

At the moment, our three southbound services are squashed into a 15 minute period within each hour, followed by a 45 minute gap. This means some services end up packed, while others have barely any people joining them. Other than a slight extra resilience during disruption, it doesn't really feel like 3 trains per hour. Northbound is a little better, though it's still two services within 10 minutes of each other and the third about 20 minutes later.

I get that mid-route we are not a priority, but something with more spread southbound in particular would be great.

Could a Darlington – Newcastle stopping service be viable? I don't know who'd run one though, as LNER wouldn't take it, it wouldn't connect to Birmingham so doesn't really fit as a XC service, TransPennine Express have enough issues as it is and I don't know if Northern drivers have the route knowledge any more (and they don't have any EMUs in the northeast as far as I know, which isn't ideal for a completely electrified route).

 

[387masterrace]

Could a Darlington – Newcastle stopping service be viable? I don't know who'd run one though, as LNER wouldn't take it, it wouldn't connect to Birmingham so doesn't really fit as a XC service, TransPennine Express have enough issues as it is and I don't know if Northern drivers have the route knowledge any more (and they don't have any EMUs in the northeast as far as I know, which isn't ideal for a completely electrified route).

1000% agree with this, my solution imo Northern should link up an Acklington train every hour with the Saltburn-Darlington train, I think it would get really healthy demand. If it needs some investment to get it running, then it may well be worth it. Give Chester-Le-Street an hourly service back, just generally give Middlesbrough much better links to the North East (including a huge time saving to Newcastle).

Surely a better use of a path than a 3rd train from London to Newcastle, and I say that as someone whose majority of rail miles every year is travelling between London and Durham.

 

[Watershed]

Could a Darlington – Newcastle stopping service be viable? I don't know who'd run one though, as LNER wouldn't take it, it wouldn't connect to Birmingham so doesn't really fit as a XC service, TransPennine Express have enough issues as it is and I don't know if Northern drivers have the route knowledge any more (and they don't have any EMUs in the northeast as far as I know, which isn't ideal for a completely electrified route).

Northern operate several trains a day along the route; their Darlington drivers and Middlesbrough conductors have the relevant route knowledge (possibly also Newcastle drivers for ECS movements but I don't think so?).

I think it's more a question of them only having 75/90mph class 156/158s in the Northeast, which are naturally a lot harder to path given LNER/XC/TPE services are all 125mph capable. I can't see it being viable to send over a handful of 195s or 331s, unless Morpeth services were also to switch over.

 

[swt_passenger]

Northern operate several trains a day along the route; their Darlington drivers and Middlesbrough conductors have the relevant route knowledge (possibly also Newcastle drivers for ECS movements but I don't think so?).

I think it's more a question of them only having 75/90mph class 156/158s in the Northeast, which are naturally a lot harder to path given LNER/XC/TPE services are all 125mph capable. I can't see it being viable to send over a handful of 195s or 331s, unless Morpeth services were also to switch over.

I thought 3 of the few Northern services that run are in the early morning before the long distance northbound services build up. There’s only the one up train in the late evening, so that suggests paths are not available most of the day?

There were proposals/attempts a couple of years ago to plan a Middlesbrough to Newcastle service up the mainline but didn’t it get ruled out, hence the extra service actually achieved runs via Sunderland?

 

[387masterrace]

I thought 3 of the few Northern services that run are in the early morning before the long distance northbound services build up. There’s only the one up train in the late evening, so that suggests paths are not available most of the day?

There were proposals/attempts a couple of years ago to plan a Middlesbrough to Newcastle service up the mainline but didn’t it get ruled out, hence the extra service actually achieved runs via Sunderland?

Why were the proposals ruled out? Has the case not changed since then with TPE struggling for stock and the new Northumberland line providing pathing opportunities?

Someone in the other thread said 6 paths per hour up that section of the ECML. 2x LNER, 1 TPE, 1 XC and still leaves space for XC Reading extras and potential pathing difficulties with non 125-mph stock. I'm surprised in today's political climate another train from London has been chosen instead.

 

[A S Leib]

Someone in the other thread said 6 paths per hour up that section of the ECML. 2x LNER, 1 TPE, 1 XC and still leaves space for XC Reading extras and potential pathing difficulties with non 125-mph stock

What are the paths Lumo take used for in the hours without Lumo services? I'm guessing Grand Central's Sunderland and TPE Saltburn services use the slow lines between York and Northallerton.

 

[swt_passenger]

Why were the proposals ruled out? Has the case not changed since then with TPE struggling for stock and the new Northumberland line providing pathing opportunities?

It was repeatedly stated in numerous threads around 2020 paths could not be found.
I suggest the Northumberland line has no relevance to the congestion on the route south of Newcastle. There’s been no official evidence of through running, however a number of forum members have posted suggesting it.

Someone in the other thread said 6 paths per hour up that section of the ECML. 2x LNER, 1 TPE, 1 XC and still leaves space for XC Reading extras and potential pathing difficulties with non 125-mph stock. I'm surprised in today's political climate another train from London has been chosen instead.

AIUI the ‘6 tph’ includes 3 paths to London because that’s where the known demand for travel is. I’m sure that’s been pointed out by an LNER insider, posting here a couple of years ago, but I can’t find it. So perhaps LNER should concentrate on where people actually want to go?

 

[Neptune]

Northern operate several trains a day along the route; their Darlington drivers and Middlesbrough conductors have the relevant route knowledge (possibly also Newcastle drivers for ECS movements but I don't think so?).

Newcastle drivers/conductors do sign NCL - DAR. There are a few ECS moves at the extremes of the day with Newcastle drivers plus Newcastle conductors work 1N53 and 1N75 from Darlington to Newcastle on a morning SX.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Could a Darlington – Newcastle stopping service be viable? I don't know who'd run one though

The problem with any stopping service is getting the paths for it. There did, many moons ago, used to be 1tp2h Newcastle-Darlington-Middlesbrough-Redcar/Saltburn. That provided the majority of the service at Chester-le-Street. However the 75mph DMUs were just getting in the way so it was canned.

The same issue would still apply now, even with the 90mph 158s it'd be tough to fit in due to the (relatively) poor acceleration of the DMUs.

Northern can run that way- indeed, they do run that way in the morning peak before the express services are up to speed.

I'm surprised in today's political climate another train from London has been chosen instead.

It's where most people want to go to.

I can't see it being viable to send over a handful of 195s or 331s, unless Morpeth services were also to switch over.

I think a lot will depend on what happens to the Edinburgh-Newcastle TPE services. Clearly TPE don't want them anymore and it's a waste of an 802. So if those services end up with Northern then they will need an 100mph+ EMU for them.

A two-hourly semi-fast Newcastle-Edinburgh would provide a good service to Northumberland, where most people are travelling to Edinburgh or Newcastle. But I think it'll fall down the cracks- Scotrail will take over the stopper north of Berwick but, understandably, there won't be the appetite in Scotland to take over services south of Berwick.

 

[WAB]

A two-hourly semi-fast Newcastle-Edinburgh would provide a good service to Northumberland, where most people are travelling to Edinburgh or Newcastle. But I think it'll fall down the cracks- Scotrail will take over the stopper north of Berwick but, understandably, there won't be the appetite in Scotland to take over services south of Berwick.

Are the paths available to shunt the unit at Berwick? Doesn't sound like the easiest thing to path?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Are the paths available to shunt the unit at Berwick? Doesn't sound like the easiest thing to path?

I presume so, as some of the TPEs do it now.

 

[3RDGEN]

The minutes of the TfN meeting in December are available at;

"https://democracy.transportfortheno...3 10.30 Transport for the North Board.pdf?T=1".

The ECML timetable change is discussed in Section 7, 7.1 to 7.7, concerns have been raised by the North East representatives however TfN did approve the change with commitments obtained to further investment, items 3 & 4 in the Resolved section of item 7;

3. That the Board notes with concern that, whilst TfN recognises the benefits of the proposed ECML timetable for December 2024, there are also a number of communities where there are negative impacts on passengers and businesses, particularly in Northumberland and the North East.

4. That following receipt of additional assurances, on infrastructure commitments and future service development, on balance Board confirms its acceptance of the ECML timetable change planned for December 2024.

The new ECML timetable is predicted to generate significant extra revenue which can be used towards infrastructure improvements north of York. This would create a seventh York - Newcastle passenger path which could be used for North East - North West connectivity.

Given the disruption of TRU there is no chance of returning to 5tph Manchester - Leeds / 4tph Manchester - York in the near future so holding out for 2tph TPE to Newcastle is not worth delaying the ECML timetable changes for.

 

[Acfb]

In what way?




I think it'd be great for the intermediate stations to get a decent 2tph service (1tph at the newer stations) but that would likely come at the expense of further service enhancements and would likely involve silly things like Reston not getting direct trains to Berwick.

I'm questioning whether there should be both XC and TPE services north of Newcastle and whether cutting one or the other would free up capacity, or at least only run XC every 2 hours using doubled up units?

It wouldn't actually be the end of the world/as stupid as it sounds if Reston-Berwick journeys were cut as Edinburgh is the primary destination. So few people use Reston anyway and most people from St Abbs, Duns, Eyemouth, Ayton etc al presumably just get the bus/drive directly to Berwick.

I think Reston probably has a more than adequate service Mon-Sat as it stands for now (problem is more lack of bus integration with existing services) but I would like to see East Linton get a better service, at the very least fill in the evening gaps and Sunday even if it not yet possible to improve elsewhere without infrastructure improvements.

 

[cle]

If it were ever possible, I would think the long-feted hourly from Newcastle to Edinburgh would be useful for all of these remote calls - with Berwick on an hourly London, and the odd extra call at Alnmouth and Dunbar. Looping might be required somewhere - or less fast trains north of Newcastle overall, to accommodate it. And folks for London and wherever connect at Newcastle, clockface.

 

[WAB]

I'm questioning whether there should be both XC and TPE services north of Newcastle and whether cutting one or the other would free up capacity, or at least only run XC every 2 hours using doubled up units?

It wouldn't actually be the end of the world/as stupid as it sounds if Reston-Berwick journeys were cut as Edinburgh is the primary destination. So few people use Reston anyway and most people from St Abbs, Duns, Eyemouth, Ayton etc al presumably just get the bus/drive directly to Berwick.

I think Reston probably has a more than adequate service Mon-Sat as it stands for now (problem is more lack of bus integration with existing services) but I would like to see East Linton get a better service, at the very least fill in the evening gaps and Sunday even if it not yet possible to improve elsewhere without infrastructure improvements.

I suspect this debate has come up before. Essentially, a halving in the direct link to Scotland from the East Midlands and West Yorkshire would be viewed rather dimly by politicians, and there might have been concerns over platform capacity at Newcastle if I remember correctly.

TPE north of Newcastle is a bodged stopping service anyway, so you could just try and fit the same path into more hours, making some of the calls alternate if needed. If TPE don't want to run it anymore, ScotGov should bribe them until they do, or find six surplus EMUs and bribe ScotRail or Northern to run them. You'll always face the issue that the stopping service will be first for the chop if it gets in the way of a consistent third London per hour - I'm not privy to the revenue figures but a stopping service is always going to be less valuable than an InterCity or even a decent freight flow.

 

[Manutd1999]

If it were ever possible, I would think the long-feted hourly from Newcastle to Edinburgh would be useful for all of these remote calls

An hourly Newcastle - Edinburgh - Motherwell - Glasgow service would be very useful, calling hourly at Morpeth/Berwick and 1p2h at some of the smaller stations (Reston, Alnmouth etc.).

This would mean XC/LNER could stop their pointless 1tpd extensions to Glasgow and would also remove the need for the long-distance operators to provide local connectivity north of Newcastle.

 

[Peter0124]

An hourly Newcastle - Edinburgh - Motherwell - Glasgow service would be very useful, calling hourly at Morpeth/Berwick and 1p2h at some of the smaller stations (Reston, Alnmouth etc.).

This would mean XC/LNER could stop their pointless 1tpd extensions to Glasgow and would also remove the need for the long-distance operators to provide local connectivity north of Newcastle.

The only problem is the Carstairs route into Glasgow takes a long time, would it be worth somehow squeezing the services onto the E&G and into Glasgow Queen Street, with no intermediate calls?

 

[cle]

The only problem is the Carstairs route into Glasgow takes a long time, would it be worth somehow squeezing the services onto the E&G and into Glasgow Queen Street, with no intermediate calls?

I don't think it'd super end to end, in demand (i.e. the Newcastle-Glasgow pair) - anyone doing that would do LNER fast -> E2G fast surely?

But good for connectivity.

 

[YorksLad12]

I'm questioning whether there should be both XC and TPE services north of Newcastle and whether cutting one or the other would free up capacity, or at least only run XC every 2 hours using doubled up units?

It wouldn't actually be the end of the world/as stupid as it sounds if Reston-Berwick journeys were cut as Edinburgh is the primary destination. So few people use Reston anyway and most people from St Abbs, Duns, Eyemouth, Ayton etc al presumably just get the bus/drive directly to Berwick.

I think Reston probably has a more than adequate service Mon-Sat as it stands for now (problem is more lack of bus integration with existing services) but I would like to see East Linton get a better service, at the very least fill in the evening gaps and Sunday even if it not yet possible to improve elsewhere without infrastructure improvements.

I suspect this debate has come up before. Essentially, a halving in the direct link to Scotland from the East Midlands and West Yorkshire would be viewed rather dimly by politicians, and there might have been concerns over platform capacity at Newcastle if I remember correctly.

Lordy, yes

Compare west and east coast routes; if you did the same on both, then XC would terminate at York, Newcastle at a pinch. My gut (which has just received at KFC box and should not be considered a good judge) feeling is that LNER should run non-stop from Edinburgh to Newcastle and York, then stopping patterns as now. Leave the intermediate calls to TPE or XC or even AN Other operator (which could be LNER running an all-shacks service between Edinburgh and York). Sounds daft, but remember that the southbound LNER fast service calls at York so that passengers can have a cross-platform connection to a stopping LNER service (and, I assume, northbound too).

 

[A S Leib]

Compare west and east coast routes; if you did the same on both, then XC would terminate at York, Newcastle at a pinch. My gut (which has just received at KFC box and should not be considered a good judge) feeling is that LNER should run non-stop from Edinburgh to Newcastle and York, then stopping patterns as now. Leave the intermediate calls to TPE or XC or even AN Other operator (which could be LNER running an all-shacks service between Edinburgh and York). Sounds daft, but remember that the southbound LNER fast service calls at York so that passengers can have a cross-platform connection to a stopping LNER service (and, I assume, northbound too).

Durham and Darlington have 320,000 journeys to / from King's Cross per year, which is almost as many as Doncaster, and from Peterborough they're more popular destinations by train than Manchester and Sheffield; they should keep at least 1 tph to King's Cross, especially in the current likely scenarios where HS2 to Yorkshire / East Midlands never exists or takes decades longer than originally planned. If you could get London – Middlesbrough up to at least 1tp2h I could see the point in fewer (but not no) Darlington calls on London services though.

 

[Topological]

The comparison between East and West on CrossCounty is a little misleading since Newcastle does not have a direct comparator on the West (The wider area around Tyneside is much more populated than that around Carlisle). It makes sense that CrossCountry serve Newcastle every hour. Whether one train per hour (the via Doncaster) could terminate at York is a good question, but that would depend on whether there is a particular pinchpoint approaching Newcastle. Assuming that the path can be found having all CrossCountry terminate at Newcastle makes sense.

LNER wise, the proposal looks sensible. Durham and Darlington are major traffic generators and Preston (which is probably the only analogous location to Darlington on the West) gets two trains per hour to London (albeit one via Birmingham)

For TPE, an hourly service from Newcastle to Manchester is needed. The second path should then pick up more stops and be more of a Liverpool to York and York to Newcastle amalgamation. I can see sense in running onward to serve stations to Edinburgh, but would assume passengers going direct from Edinburgh to Manchester would follow the WCML routes. TPE would therefore have 2 trains per hour north of Darlington and provide the Edinburgh to Leeds flow. Prior to the completion of the electrification of Manchester to Leeds, the Scotland service could split at York to allow EMU north, but TPE have 80x so can run the services on bi-mode as is.

 

[A S Leib]

Newcastle does not have a direct comparator on the West (The wider area around Tyneside is much more populated than that around Carlisle).

And off of the ECML there's Teesside and Sunderland (could just be served with the Metro and Newcastle if starting from scratch, but scrapping direct London and York services now when they're the most (34,000 per year) and fourth-most (16,000 per year; more than Middlesbrough or MetroCentre) frequent destinations from Sunderland means it's worth keeping in some form). For the WCML the only (rough) equivalent's Blackpool (smaller population and slightly less demand to / from London than Sunderland without factoring in Hartlepool as well), with Chester / north Wales services being closer, at least in latitude, to Lincoln / Hull / Bradford.

 

[WAB]

The comparison between East and West on CrossCounty is a little misleading since Newcastle does not have a direct comparator on the West (The wider area around Tyneside is much more populated than that around Carlisle). It makes sense that CrossCountry serve Newcastle every hour. Whether one train per hour (the via Doncaster) could terminate at York is a good question, but that would depend on whether there is a particular pinchpoint approaching Newcastle. Assuming that the path can be found having all CrossCountry terminate at Newcastle makes sense.

When it comes to East vs West comparisons, West Yorkshire is the equivalent of Manchester, and Manchester gets the direct TPE services to Scotland.

 

[Peter0124]

I'd say Darlington is more like Lancaster and York is like Preston, especially geographically and train-frequency speaking.

Even though Darlington is actually on the same y-axis as Shap.

 

[cle]

I'd say Darlington is more like Lancaster and York is like Preston, especially geographically and train-frequency speaking.

Even though Darlington is actually on the same y-axis as Shap.

Doncaster is Crewe, definitely - and Newcastle is Carlisle. Nominally. But of course, with big differences. Especially on the latter.

 

[Peter0124]

Doncaster is Crewe, definitely - and Newcastle is Carlisle. Nominally. But of course, with big differences. Especially on the latter.

If there was a similar population either side of the North, you'd probably have 3tph from Carlisle to London (1tph Glasgow, 1tph Gla/Edi via Trent Valley, 1tph Gla/Edi via WM)

Anyways back to the ECML...

 

[xotGD]

Doncaster is Crewe, definitely - and Newcastle is Carlisle. Nominally. But of course, with big differences. Especially on the latter.

And Huddersfield equates to Bolton. No London trains.