What future is there for on-train catering?

[Gloster]

If there is catering the passenger must be able to rely on it serving him or her. I haven’t been up to London for some years, but long before that I had given up on the on-board catering and always bought before boarding. The reasons varied: no trolley, the trolley unable to pass through the train, the trolley turning round early before passing through the whole train, just about everything being bought by a ravenous group of rugby players/supporters (true), etc. If you can’t rely on buying something on board you will make other arrangements: the occasional problem will be accepted with a bit of muttering, but if it is frequent, then you have lost a fair part of your market.

 

[mike57]

Hull I think has catering in 1st but not Standard at the moment

Its been like this for quite a while even pre Covid from memory. We use Hull Trains a few times a year, and opt for 1st class. They do fill their 1st class pretty well, and fares are quite attractive if booked in advance. The staff in 1st seem pretty busy.

As an OA operator they are competing with LNER, and if travelling from anywhere beyond Doncaster out to Hull/Beverley the lack of a change is going to be a consideration which may trump lack of standard class catering for passengers.

As for purchasing before boarding, have a look at Howden, Hull trains call here and the station is about a mile or so from the town, in the middle of nowhere. Having said that I suspect that its main attraction is free parking in a decent sized car park, making it an attractive start point for journeys from the area surrounding Howden.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As for purchasing before boarding, have a look at Howden, Hull trains call here and the station is about a mile or so from the town, in the middle of nowhere. Having said that I suspect that its main attraction is free parking in a decent sized car park, making it an attractive start point for journeys from the area surrounding Howden.

I figure that's a traffic source? As such, if you knew there wasn't catering and you were likely to go there by car, taking your own from home isn't a major issue. Probably true of Ulverston too to be fair.

 

[James H]

ie someone has a cafe on/near the stations at Salisbury and Andover, takes orders on an app/internet, jumps on a train and moves along it delivering, and then jumps off at the other end, and picks up orders for a train back again.

I thought the summer setup that RailGourmet had, whereby someone would shuttle between Brockenhurst and Bournemouth walking through the train selling tubs of local Purbeck ice cream, was a really simple and creative proposition.

It did wonders for passenger morale - you could see people visibly perk up as they realised they could have an ice cream.

 

[Brubulus]

The cheapest way to provide onboard catering is via vending machines, given the lack of staff costs. These could be located in a dedicated catering area, not larger than the mini-buffet seen on LNER 80x.
Trolleys are reasonable on shorter units where there is not the space for a self service catering area and should require no extra staff when there is already a guard onboard.
IC first class catering should generally be based on meals from catering establishments near stops (or termini if you want to play it very safe) who have formed a partnership with the TOC being prepared and loaded onboard by said establishment, then warmed, plated and served by onboard staff. No need for half a coach to be a kitchen when a microwave and coffee machine can do. It should also be pre ordered and an extra charge on advance FC tickets but included on flexible ones.
I'd also really like to see independent vendors and small buisnesses have the ability to sell products on board easily via some sort of simple mechanism.

 

[Meerkat]

Trolleys are reasonable on shorter units where there is not the space for a self service catering area and should require no extra staff when there is already a guard onboard.

I was just thinking that maybe the railway should take tips from airlines - if they are forced to have non-driving safety trained people on board then have them selling refreshments and souvenirs.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was just thinking that maybe the railway should take tips from airlines - if they are forced to have non-driving safety trained people on board then have them selling refreshments and souvenirs.

Isn't this Lumo's approach?

 

[paul1609]

I've certainly been miffed boarding at Ulverston at the lack of anything on board or even vaguely nearby, but that'd easily be solved by putting a regular vending machine and a Costa Express machine with a card reader on it in the booking office. Or even giving preferential rent for something like a small local shop to set up in the building.

Ive only used Ulverston to escape from the Cumbria Way but if you look at the ORR passenger figures it gets 300K pa. Arriving passengers are unlikely to use a catering facility so say 150K passengers departing a year maybe 400 a day, from my one experience Id say a proportion of those are schoolchildren. Unless theres surrounding non rail business you can attract I'd say that at current energy and staffing costs it wouldn't be viable for a local business even at free rent. As I recall theres a wide range of shops pubs and cafes in the town centre a few minutes walk away.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ive only used Ulverston to escape from the Cumbria Way but if you look at the ORR passenger figures it gets 300K pa. Arriving passengers are unlikely to use a catering facility so say 150K passengers departing a year maybe 400 a day, from my one experience Id say a proportion of those are schoolchildren. Unless theres surrounding non rail business you can attract I'd say that at current energy and staffing costs it wouldn't be viable for a local business even at free rent. As I recall theres a wide range of shops pubs and cafes in the town centre a few minutes walk away.

If there are a lot of schoolkids a sweet shop that happens to have a Costa machine could well pay, but I could see it being controversial.

But I do think a sweets/crisps/cans vending machine and a Costa machine in the booking office would probably be viable. They have them in less busy locations.

 

[g492p]

The cheapest way to provide onboard catering is via vending machines, given the lack of staff costs. These could be located in a dedicated catering area, not larger than the mini-buffet seen on LNER 80x.
Trolleys are reasonable on shorter units where there is not the space for a self service catering area and should require no extra staff when there is already a guard onboard.
IC first class catering should generally be based on meals from catering establishments near stops (or termini if you want to play it very safe) who have formed a partnership with the TOC being prepared and loaded onboard by said establishment, then warmed, plated and served by onboard staff. No need for half a coach to be a kitchen when a microwave and coffee machine can do. It should also be pre ordered and an extra charge on advance FC tickets but included on flexible ones.
I'd also really like to see independent vendors and small buisnesses have the ability to sell products on board easily via some sort of simple mechanism.

Interesting. When would the guard get time to pull the trolly through the train? Many local businesses do supply products to the train operators anyway. I don’t really see why on long distance IC trains we would want to see a reduction in catering. As stated on another thread, on some TOCs where it’s done well, like LNER, it’s very popular. What’s more, many people don’t wish to arrive at a station very early to buy refreshments. Add to that, at many big stations the choices are not particularly great and are also very expensive. It’s interesting to note that on many high speed OAO’s in Europe, notable both on all operators between Madrid and Barcelona, there is a range of catering provided and a full crew to provided too.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What’s more, many people don’t wish to arrive at a station very early to buy refreshments.

Wha? How long does it take you? It's not a full weekly supermarket shop, it's five minutes choosing a sandwich and grabbing a coffee.

Add to that, at many big stations the choices are not particularly great

As long as there's an M&S Food. The selection is superb. Yes, some stations (e.g. Bristol TM) lack these, but you could just add one.

and are also very expensive.

You think on-train would be cheaper?

It’s interesting to note that on many high speed OAO’s in Europe, notable both on all operators between Madrid and Barcelona, there is a range of catering provided and a full crew to provided too.

It's typically quite basic, a few sandwiches, a couple of types of chocolate bar and a few drinks offerings.

 

[g492p]

Wha? How long does it take you? It's not a full weekly supermarket shop, it's five minutes choosing a sandwich and grabbing a coffee.



As long as there's an M&S Food. The selection is superb. Yes, some stations (e.g. Bristol TM) lack these, but you could just add one.



You think on-train would be cheaper?



It's typically quite basic, a few sandwiches, a couple of types of chocolate bar and a few drinks offerings.

Most people I know want to be at the station around 10 - 15 minutes before hand. Very often I experience queues at station retailers. Once my train is called I would rather go to the platform and sit down rather then risk missing it. I’m definitely not alone in that. I’d also posit that just because you love M&S does not mean everyone does. And certainly when I’ve traveled on LNER their £5 or £6 meal deals are cheaper than any station M&S I’ve ever been to.

Also, regarding European catering. A basic offering from the buffet is what’s offered in the UK too so I don’t really get your point. Having recently traveled with Iryo in Spain they certainly had a wide range of refreshments available.

 

[Halwynd]

Forget catering onboard - the future is the return of the station trolley...

Take the WCML for example. You could have any number of trolleys on the platforms at Rugby, Crewe, Preston and/or Carlisle, each replenished from the station buffet between arrivals and departures. Edible delights might include tea, coffee, hot chocolate and soup, biscuits, freshly made sandwiches (using proper best butter of course), crisps, chocolate bars and perhaps even hot pies, warm bacon rolls and jacket potatoes. Good honest catering - none of this poncy chicken with grapes, mayonnaise and a sprinkling of trill nonsense.

Trains would stop at each station for say 30 minutes to allow passengers to alight and make their purchases, and a big plus for the TOC beancounters... all of those unprofitable onboard toilets could be removed with desperate passengers pointed in the direction of the station facilities.

I think this might be a real go-er...

 

[AM9]

and a sprinkling of trill nonsense.).

Now that took me back, who has budgies these days? - (don't answer that otherwise the off-topic police will be around )!

 

[dk1]

Forget catering onboard - the future is the return of the station trolley...

Take the WCML for example. You could have any number of trolleys on the platforms at Rugby, Crewe, Preston and/or Carlisle, each replenished from the station buffet between arrivals and departures. Edible delights might include tea, coffee, hot chocolate and soup, biscuits, freshly made sandwiches (using proper best butter of course), crisps, chocolate bars and perhaps even hot pies, warm bacon rolls and jacket potatoes. Good honest catering - none of this poncy chicken with grapes, mayonnaise and a sprinkling of trill nonsense.

Trains would stop at each station for say 30 minutes to allow passengers to alight and make their purchases, and a big plus for the TOC beancounters... all of those unprofitable onboard toilets could be removed with desperate passengers pointed in the direction of the station facilities.

I think this might be a real go-er...

That’s just brightened my day lol. I’m surprised those with no sense of humour haven’t been over this like a rash. Thank you.

 

[43066]

That’s just brightened my day lol. I’m surprised those with no sense of humour haven’t been over this like a rash. Thank you.

You can never be quite sure on here whether suggestions like this are meant to be serious or not!

 

[dk1]

You can never be quite sure on here whether suggestions like this are meant to be serious or not!

Never a truer word mate but it was the ‘proper best butter’ comment that gave it away.

 

[Tester]

That’s just brightened my day lol. I’m surprised those with no sense of humour haven’t been over this like a rash. Thank you.

Very much a real life feature in various Asian countries - China and Thailand in particular.

General stuff everywhere, but in addition particular delicacies at particular stations.

An example:

Link to China railway food page - platform trolley photo from same source

 

[dk1]

Very much a real life feature in various Asian countries - China and Thailand in particular.

General stuff everywhere, but in addition particular delicacies at particular stations.

An example:

Link to China railway food page - platform trolley photo from same source

Yes of course but not here or on any busy short to medium distance intensive rail network.

 

[High Dyke]

I see a Reggie Perrin moment here.

Train delayed due to a lack of Haribo sweets at Effingham Junction

Whilst it may be worthwhile reconsidering how on-train catering is provided then personally I wouldn't want to see it removed. Some services could benefit from a trolley service on the train, or better provision.

 

[Halwynd]

That’s just brightened my day lol. I’m surprised those with no sense of humour haven’t been over this like a rash. Thank you.

You have to try and have a laugh every now and again don't you... glad it brightened your day!

 

[AngusH]

I wonder if someone will end up trying the Dutch experiment of insulated water dispensing backpacks
with a person dispensing hot drinks and small snacks.

Catering on Long Distance Dutch Trains

The train should be starting in the same direction as the Den Haag ones (i.e. towards the left when looking from low to high platform numbers). The 1605 ex Rotterdam should be formed of ten double deckers (DDZ, very smart units) and has a reversal in Utrecht. You can check the formation in real...

www.railforums.co.uk

On both these trains, there was a lad selling drinks and snacks from a back pack thingy. However, I did have time to buy food/drink at the stations before I got on.

Last effort before closure I think:

NS rail catering uniform: from the past to present – Prettybusiness World

In February, the Dutch Railway company announced that it would stop with rail catering. NS rail catering uniform: from the past to present.

prettybusinessworld.com

picture of back pack:

NS Railcatering serveert voortaan filterkoffie in de trein

it seemed rather odd, but I guess cheap


(Sorry I keep finding more odd pictures of this)

 

[GlitterUnicorn]

Rent trolleys as concessions to any business that applies, on any route. Let them (within reason) pick and choose which trains and times they serve and the food and drink they sell. Make it really simple for them.

Leave the innovation (and the risk) to business owner willing to chance it. They'll soon find out what works.

 

[richw]

As it stands pricing is far too high, I’ll grab some snacks and a bottle of drink on route to the station as do many people I know now.

Only attraction I can see is for hot drinks service as you can’t really buy one of them for later

 

[Halifaxlad]

As someone pointed out in the thread suggesting that HS2 trains should be 250m long, services are to run in multiple of 200m.

Catering on HS2 is going to be an interesting one although I can imagine it falling and being scrapped as everyone will probably board the same unit which probably won't be the one with the catering in.

 

[XAM2175]

I wonder if someone will end up trying the Dutch experiment of insulated water dispensing backpacks
with a person dispensing hot drinks and small snacks.

They started doing that on some DSB services in Denmark a few years back, run as a tie-in with 7-Eleven in some way or another.

 

[AM9]

As someone pointed out in the thread suggesting that HS2 trains should be 250m long, services are to run in multiple of 200m.

Catering on HS2 is going to be an interesting one although I can imagine it falling and being scrapped as everyone will probably board the same unit which probably won't be the one with the catering in.

There's no good reason why catering is needed for the journeys planned in the first few years.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There's no good reason why catering is needed for the journeys planned in the first few years.

There's certainly no need for any catering to Birmingham. Arguably there isn't any need now. It's probably debatable for Manchester and Liverpool too as these will only be an hour and a bit. The only route where it's probably justified is the much longer (4hrs) Glasgow route.

GWR is probably broadly similar. There's little need on the Bristols as they're little more than fast outersuburbans, Cardiff maybe in a grey area, but Penzance could almost justify a full restaurant service.

 

[AM9]

There's certainly no need for any catering to Birmingham. Arguably there isn't any need now. It's probably debatable for Manchester and Liverpool too as these will only be an hour and a bit. The only route where it's probably justified is the much longer (4hrs) Glasgow route.

GWR is probably broadly similar. There's little need on the Bristols as they're little more than fast outersuburbans, Cardiff maybe in a grey area, but Penzance could almost justify a full restaurant service.

Unfortunately, there seems to be an expectation from some here that a full buffet service is essential on any train that has end door coaches.

 

[HSTEd]

Unfortunately, there seems to be an expectation from some here that a full buffet service is essential on any train that has end door coaches.

In that case, bring on the doors-at-thirds for everyone!

The reality is that if, as I hope, journey times continue to fall, train catering will become more and more niche to the point of virtually disappearing entirely.

Doesn't take ten hours to get from London to Scotland any more....