What Happened To ETHEL?

[RichmondCommu]

G'day everyone,

From memory back in the 1980's I seem to remember that a few class 25's were used to provide heating to carriages when hauled by none heat / steam heat only loco's. From what I can remember these loco's were referred to as ETHEL's.

Can anyone shed any light on them; when they were created, what services they operated on and what their eventual fate was?

Kind regards,

Richmond Commuter!

 

[richieb1971]

Taken from Wikipedia.

97250–97252
Three former Class 25 locomotives were converted for use as mobile generators to provide electric heating on trains where the hauling locomotive could not supply this. They were referred to as ETHEL units (Electric Train Heating Ex-Locomotives), and unofficially named Ethel 1, Ethel 2 and Ethel 3. They were painted in a blue/grey livery in an effort to match the coaching stock livery of the day, but this was not too successful. All three have since been scrapped.

 

[DropTheTap]

Just from memory, they were converted from class 25 locomotives at Aberdeen Ferryhill in the early to mid 1980s (1983- 84?)

The ETHELs were always intended as a stopgap measure to provide ETH supply to mark 2 coaching stock which had been cascaded to the north of Scotland. No ETH locomotives were expected to be available until the release of the class 37/4s at the end of the decade.

This proved correct, and as soon as the full compliment of 37/4s were in service (1988), the ETHELs were withdrawn and eventually all scrapped.

Apologies if I'm slightly off with my dates, books aren't to hands at the moment, but I hope this helps anyway.

 

[Bodiddly]

ETHELS were a stop gap to supply ETH for the Mk3 sleepers being used on the Fort William-Edinburgh service. The 37/0's at the time had no ETH facility so the ex 25's were required until the 37/4's were available.
Picture of ETHEL 1 at An Gearasdan
http://www.derbysulzers.com/97250.html

 

[dubscottie]

They were converted when the West Highland sleepers went over to Mk3 sleepers. (One Northbound, one Southbound, one spare at Eastfield)

Once the 37/4's arrived they were then used on steam specials to provide heating based at Carlisle.

One was scrapped early as it still had asbestos but the other 2 survived till late 1993/early 1994 as carriage heating units at Inverness and were sold for scrap at the same time as the last 26's headed for MC Metals and 47643 was saved for Bo'ness.

 

[route:oxford]

ETHELS were a stop gap to supply ETH for the Mk3 sleepers being used on the Fort William-Edinburgh service. The 37/0's at the time had no ETH facility so the ex 25's were required until the 37/4's were available.
Picture of ETHEL 1 at An Gearasdan
http://www.derbysulzers.com/97250.html

It looks very smart in those colours.

Could it operate at either end of the consist, eg 37-Ethel-Coaches or did it have to be 37-Coaches-Ethel?

Also, did it have its own red light? Not sure if that is a tail lamp hanging behind one of the buffers or not.

 

[theblackwatch]

As mentioned, all 3 ETHELs were eventually scrapped after moving on to steam special work. I have a vague recollection of one being at Marylebone for heating charter stock there, having replaced the Class 15 previously used there. Two of them also gained InterCity colours to match the stock on charters, which upset the steam brigade! The ETHELs always seemed to be tagged behind the loco rather than being at the rear of the train. Locos on the rear of trains as well as the front wasn't very fashionable back then!

 

[Spagnoletti]

Could it operate at either end of the consist, eg 37-Ethel-Coaches or did it have to be 37-Coaches-Ethel?

I've been told they had to be in between the loco and the coaches so the driver would get fire alarm indications etc.

 

[birchesgreen]

Did they have to be crewed or could they be left once the engine was on and electricity being produced?

 

[Helvellyn]

I recall reading in an eddition of RAIL in the early 1990s that InterCity was looking at replacing the ETHELs with ex DEMU DMBSO vehicles. It was suggested (not sure if tongue in cheek) that these would be known as THERMUS vehicles (Train Heating Ex Redundant Multiple Unit Stock). In the end nthing came of it.

As an aside, the original reason for the creation of the ETHELs came full circle, i.e. to provide ETH supplies for Mark 3A Sleeper services, in the early 1990s when InterCity switched from using Class 47/6s on the Royal Highlander and Night Aberdonian to pairs of non-ETH Class 37s with a Mark 1 BG proving the ETH power as a generator car (6311-6313). I've still got a poster from RAIL somewhere of a pair of InterCity liveried Class 37s hauling the Royal Highlander in daylight (a Summer morning), complete with the Mark 1 generator car, Mark 1 BG, Mark 3A Sleepers, Mark 2F lounge car and tagged on at the back Mark 1 Motorail vans! Quite an impressive formation, but then this was in the days when there were five Sleeper trains between Euston and Scotland each night rather than two.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

I remember the THERMUS units. Think if i recall correctly it was an off the beaten track bit of humour by Myles Platting.....

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Slightly OT but at the time the train set some sort of record for haulage. Out of Fort William it had a 37 + ETHEL' and then (I have my records in the UK sorry) it went into Glasgow QS and I am sure another loco was attached or some banking locos or similar to take it to Mossend and then an electric was attached for the journey into Euston. I once took the train.

 

[GrimShady]

I'm working on building one for Train Simulator. I need a bit of guidance when It comes to the ETHELs acoustics. I'm assuming the were left running in idle for ETH purposes? Would this have varied much depending on ETHload?

 

[Cowley]

I'm working on building one for Train Simulator. I need a bit of guidance when It comes to the ETHELs acoustics. I'm assuming the were left running in idle for ETH purposes? Would this have varied much depending on ETHload?

I was wondering if they were a bit above idling speed to supply enough power? I remember the steam fans detested them and some time in the 90s as others have said a generator car appeared in steam specials which was the answer to their prayers.
If ever I think of a steam railtour over the S&C back then with something like a Princess on it I always remember it with an Intercity liveried Ethel behind the tender, and didn't they have grilles over the windows to stop lumps of coal hitting them too?
I saw two out of the three but never heard one running.

 

[GrimShady]

What was the load out of Glasgow QS on the ETHEL Fort Bill sleepers? It was the normal day service plus the sleeper formation as far as I'm aware.

 

[jopsuk]

I've been told they had to be in between the loco and the coaches so the driver would get fire alarm indications etc.

Surely that would take a lot of shunting at each terminal?

 

[Cowley]

Surely that would take a lot of shunting at each terminal?

I imagine it did actually but I don't remember ever seeing one on the rear of a train, does anyone else?
Top and tail locos on trains are common now but apart from the 27s on the Glasgow - Edinburghs it was pretty unusual in the 80s.

 

[djpontrack]

I imagine it did actually but I don't remember ever seeing one on the rear of a train, does anyone else?
Top and tail locos on trains are common now but apart from the 27s on the Glasgow - Edinburghs it was pretty unusual in the 80s.

I lived at Fort William when the Ethels were running and I never saw one on the rear of a train. They were always behind the loco. I remember going past the station one afternoon and the Ethel was roaring away heating the stock. It was strange to hear a loco powering away but not moving.

 

[Cowley]

I lived at Fort William when the Ethels were running and I never saw one on the rear of a train. They were always behind the loco. I remember going past the station one afternoon and the Ethel was roaring away heating the stock. It was strange to hear a loco powering away but not moving.

That's interesting djp. Going on what you say then, were they running somewhat faster than the standard class 25 tickover?

 

[djpontrack]

That's interesting djp. Going on what you say then, were they running somewhat faster than the standard class 25 tickover?

It definitely sounded louder than just tickover to me mate.

 

[Cowley]

It definitely sounded louder than just tickover to me mate.

Thanks for that. It must have been an interesting time to be up there.

 

[djpontrack]

Thanks for that. It must have been an interesting time to be up there.

It was quite interesting when you look back, you just don't realise it at the time. I moved to Swindon shortly after and for a boy from a small Highland town it was certainly interesting traveling around on the Western Region at that time.

 

[GrimShady]

I lived at Fort William when the Ethels were running and I never saw one on the rear of a train. They were always behind the loco. I remember going past the station one afternoon and the Ethel was roaring away heating the stock. It was strange to hear a loco powering away but not moving.

What was the load like Dj? Two SLEPs and a few TSOs?

 

[djpontrack]

What was the load like Dj? Two SLEPs and a few TSOs?

If I remember correctly, there was 2 SLEP/SLE, 2 seated coaches for Euston and 3 seated coaches for Glasgow Q St. Obviously there was 2 brake vehicles, one on each portion. I remember travelling one night from Fort William to Euston in a BCK.

 

[dubscottie]

It definitely sounded louder than just tickover to me mate.

+1. It was louder than a steam loco when they were on charters. That's what made them unpopular.

I think, while on the West Highland sleepers they were behind the loco to minimise shunting at Queen St.

Here is a pic from someone else of the first run.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/jjm2009/8179357518

 

[GrimShady]

If I remember correctly, there was 2 SLEP/SLE, 2 seated coaches for Euston and 3 seated coaches for Glasgow Q St. Obviously there was 2 brake vehicles, one on each portion. I remember travelling one night from Fort William to Euston in a BCK.

Thanks for the info. Shame there's no recording of them around. I was reading elsewhere that the throttle was set at 3/4. I would have thought that the engine would output would vary with the demand. Dj would you have said the thrash would be on par with this 25 on Youtube https://youtu.be/unXzJCZhKWw?t=68

 

[djpontrack]

I think that's pretty much about right GrimShady.

 

[GrimShady]

I think that's pretty much about right GrimShady.

Cheers! It helps with my project

 

[Helvellyn]

I recall a short-lived proposal to replace the ETHELs with ex-DEMU power cars that it was suggested would (in BR fashion) be known as THERMUS - Train Heating Ex-Redundant Multiple Unit Stock. Wonder how popular a Class 205/207 power car behind a steam loco would have been?

 

[47271]

I recall a short-lived proposal to replace the ETHELs with ex-DEMU power cars that it was suggested would (in BR fashion) be known as THERMUS - Train Heating Ex-Redundant Multiple Unit Stock. Wonder how popular a Class 205/207 power car behind a steam loco would have been?

Ancient ex Southern Region equipment used on the sleeper eh, it'll never happen.