What happened to upgrading the Oyster system to support more zones?

[Railguy1]

I was under the impression the oyster system could only support 15 zones and they were all in use but a technical upgrade was in process to enhance this.

What is the current status of this upgrade?

 

[sad1e]

I was under the impression the oyster system could only support 15 zones and they were all in use but a technical upgrade was in process to enhance this.

What is the current status of this upgrade?

Oyster is outdated , tfl want to move more towards contactless. Plus a new oyster system would require new cards to be issued like when they expanded it previously.

Tfl probably don't see the need to deal with that while the percentage of people using oyster shrinks year after year for contactless. It's a lot easier and cheaper for tfl to just expand the contactless zone then the oyster zone with it.

 

[SynthD]

Project Oval: TfL win DfT contract to expand contactless system to 233 rail stations by May 2024, Railcards coming to contactless payment cards

TfL have won the DfT's contract to expand their contactless payment system to 233 rail stations by May 2024, which also includes the requirement to allow Railcards and concessionary discounts to be added to contactless payment cards Phase 1 Contactless payments in 53 stations – majority due...

www.railforums.co.uk

Oyster will become a payment card in the contactless system, which was made more recently and is far more capable.

 

[Edvid]

I was under the impression the oyster system could only support 15 zones and they were all in use but a technical upgrade was in process to enhance this.

What is the current status of this upgrade?

The next Revenue Collection Contract (labelled Proteus) will include the creation of a brand-new, account-based Oyster system (in a similar vein to contactless PAYG) that replaces the existing Oyster system initiated under the 1998 Prestige contract. The awarding of Proteus is currently scheduled for late August and the contract would go live following a transition period of 1-2 years; beyond that it will take a few more years to design / install / test the new system and otherwise ready it for general use. Basically its launch is at least 5 years out.

Project Proteus: New features in TfL revenue collection tender

I found some of the new features mentioned in the latest TfL revenue collection tender interesting: During the life of the Proteus Contract, we anticipate that there will be a number of changes, the key planned changes expected to be delivered during the Proteus Contract term include: • Hina...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Railguy1]

Thanks for the information everyone.

 

[Peter Sarf]

So how would an over 60s Oyster replacement work ?. Just a different card or would I have to expose my bank card albeit free. I say free except when I make an overlong journey while sitting on a platform for hours watching the world go by.

 

[rmHawk765]

Oyster is outdated , tfl want to move more towards contactless. Plus a new oyster system would require new cards to be issued like when they expanded it previously.

Tfl probably don't see the need to deal with that while the percentage of people using oyster shrinks year after year for contactless. It's a lot easier and cheaper for tfl to just expand the contactless zone then the oyster zone with it.

Most people who pay a regular adult fare use contactless already anyway - Oyster is indeed outdated. But what about the people that use a Railcard to get Oyster discounts, or people with Zip photocards (and Over 60s as mentioned above)? I would imagine it is possible to allow linking Railcards to the contactless system just like with Oyster but the photocards will likely have to stay.

 

[Florence Rox]

I work for TFL and there are thousands of Londoners who don't have bank accounts who rely on Oyster cards, assuming they an find a station which accepts cash and the machines are working. What about tourists? Several overseas contactless cards don't work on the Underground, and sometimes they get charged high amounts every time they travel, which is why they prefer Oysters.

 

[michael8]

Forgive my ignorance, but I've never heard of anyone not having a bank account (although of course I believe you). What might be the reasons for not having one ?! I cannot imagine existing without a bank account... Would appreciate any illumination !

 

[rmHawk765]

Forgive my ignorance, but I've never heard of anyone not having a bank account (although of course I believe you). What might be the reasons for not having one ?! I cannot imagine existing without a bank account... Would appreciate any illumination !

Yes, either the wording is a bit wrong or that is just a slightly ridiculous point.

 

[davews]

Or does he mean not having a contactless card? For instance our church, which requires dual signatures on cheques, is not supplied with a debit card and the dual signature thing would fall flat with something like TFL contactless! However there are still a few in this country who don't have a bank account and the need of contactless for juniors needs considering as well.

 

[sh24]

Forgive my ignorance, but I've never heard of anyone not having a bank account (although of course I believe you). What might be the reasons for not having one ?! I cannot imagine existing without a bank account... Would appreciate any illumination !

It's time for an Enlightenment on financial inclusion

Speech by Nikhil Rathi, our Chief Executive, delivered at PwC Glasgow for the Scottish Financial Enterprise: Extending Financial Inclusion event.

www.fca.org.uk

Over a million adults don’t have a bank account. Often the very poorest.

 

[jumble]

So how would an over 60s Oyster replacement work ?. Just a different card or would I have to expose my bank card albeit free. I say free except when I make an overlong journey while sitting on a platform for hours watching the world go by.

As the over 60 does not hold any money on it and is not valid outside zone 9 they could simply carry on
Presumably they are not going to insist that 11 year old children with zip cards need bank accounts

 

[Route115?]

I opened by first bank account at 18 but started travelling on the underground when I was much younger. The assumption is that everyone has a smartphone but thats not true, and from my experience the batteries often go flat, which may not matter too much, but certainly does if it means a penalty fare.

I suppose you could set up an TfL bank account for youngsters, visitors, etc and get around the problem that way, but why not stick with oyster.

Does TfL have problems with overseas bank accounts? I was unable to purchase a ticket at Chicago O'Hare with my connect card - it worked well everywhere wlse in the States.

 

[Peter Sarf]

As the over 60 does not hold any money on it and is not valid outside zone 9 they could simply carry on
Presumably they are not going to insist that 11 year old children with zip cards need bank accounts

Thanks, makes sense, that's my hope.
Especially the bit about my granddaughter not being in a position to buy me tea and biscuits when we are out .

Yes, either the wording is a bit wrong or that is just a slightly ridiculous point.

NO It is very a valid point. There are plenty of people who have no bank account. There are those that rely on credit unions - last time I looked a debit card was not part of the offering. It is important not to exclude people who are suffering financial exclusion.

 

[etr221]

AIUI, current Oyster cards work on the basis that the Oyster card carries ('knows') the associated balance, and all the information that is required for this to be adjusted as users touch in and out, in an interaction between card and 'reader' (free standing or in gateline).
Under the new 'account based' system that knowledge - of the Oyster balance, and everything else - will (again AIUI) not be held on the card, but by the 'back office' system, so as the card is used, touching on readers as it is, the readers will inform the back office system, which will (based on the touches) make the appropriate balance adjustment - noting that one sort of touch will be a 'top up to increase balance'. The big difference between that and current use of contactless bank/credit cards is that, as it will be a TfL card, associated with a (purely) TfL account, it can hold all the information (including Travelcard and similar validities), and be subject to all the conditions, that TfL wish (but which bank/credit card operators won't permit).

 

[rmHawk765]

AIUI, current Oyster cards work on the basis that the Oyster card carries ('knows') the associated balance, and all the information that is required for this to be adjusted as users touch in and out, in an interaction between card and 'reader' (free standing or in gateline).
Under the new 'account based' system that knowledge - of the Oyster balance, and everything else - will (again AIUI) not be held on the card, but by the 'back office' system, so as the card is used, touching on readers as it is, the readers will inform the back office system, which will (based on the touches) make the appropriate balance adjustment - noting that one sort of touch will be a 'top up to increase balance'. The big difference between that and current use of contactless bank/credit cards is that, as it will be a TfL card, associated with a (purely) TfL account, it can hold all the information (including Travelcard and similar validities), and be subject to all the conditions, that TfL wish (but which bank/credit card operators won't permit).

Are you sure it's held on the card? I was always under the impression it just has the authentication data on it. It would certainly be easier to store just that. I guess I could possibly have a look at the data stored on one, though it's very likely to be encrypted. Storing it on the card would easily open up the possibility to modify the data. It's not a good idea and doesn't really make sense technically.

 

[rebmcr]

Are you sure it's held on the card? I was always under the impression it just has the authentication data on it. It would certainly be easier to store just that. I guess I could possibly have a look at the data stored on one, though it's very likely to be encrypted. Storing it on the card would easily open up the possibility to modify the data. It's not a good idea and doesn't really make sense technically.

There is plenty of freely-available information about how Oyster works which disproves your doubt. The generic technical category is "stored-value card".

While it would not be an obvious choice for a new system designed today (for the reasons you state), back in 2003 the nature of server infrastructure was very different, and Oyster probably wouldn't have been reliable enough to succeed if every gateline required a real-time data feed during peak operations.

 

[rmHawk765]

There is plenty of freely-available information about how Oyster works which disproves your doubt. The generic technical category is "stored-value card".

While it would not be an obvious choice for a new system designed today (for the reasons you state), back in 2003 the nature of server infrastructure was very different, and Oyster probably wouldn't have been reliable enough to succeed if every gateline required a real-time data feed during peak operations.

Oh alright then, good to know!

 

[Snow1964]

While it would not be an obvious choice for a new system designed today (for the reasons you state), back in 2003 the nature of server infrastructure was very different, and Oyster probably wouldn't have been reliable enough to succeed if every gateline required a real-time data feed during peak operations.

Although there still multiple times a year when a gateline has lost power or station screens have lost data feed.

Considerably better than 2003, but still not 100% reliable with local power backups.

 

[rebmcr]

This discussion made me curious, so I did a rough calculation of the total storage of all Oyster cards.

• First-generation cards used MiFare Classic chips, with 1KiB of storage
• Second-generation cards (with the D symbol) use MiFare DESFire EV1 chips, specifically the 2KiB variant

It's unclear exactly how many of each have been issued, but the total count was at 46 million in 2012 (2 years after the switchover), and currently sits around 85 million, so it's probably a safe assumption that there have been about 40 million first-gen, and about 45 million second-gen.

Multiplying out, we get around 120GiB total capacity, the same amount as a typical laptop hard drive from 2005.

 

[Ze Random One]

My foreign family members found that their (otherwise valid) Visa and Apple Pay wouldn't work the Oyster gatelines, plus we had two foreign teenagers with us, last autumn. An alternative payment method was absolutely needed for them.

On top of that, there are many people who want to watch their spending, and for whom a regular "contactless debit card" makes it impossible to really track and regulate that, so may choose to use prepaid payment cards or cash.

 

[Bletchleyite]

On top of that, there are many people who want to watch their spending, and for whom a regular "contactless debit card" makes it impossible to really track and regulate that, so may choose to use prepaid payment cards or cash.

Prepaid payment cards are a good solution here. Or the likes of Monzo.

 

[Ze Random One]

Prepaid payment cards are a good solution here. Or the likes of Monzo.

However they still require you to

1. Fill out a load of "paperwork" (including evidence of identity etc.) which may be challenging for some and almosr impossible for others
2. Have reliable Internet and an up-to-date smartphone or laptop to manage it
3. Be able to handle tallying up in your head what money is being kept aside for which purpose and not accidentally spend it/have a faulty gateline deduct more (if you have cash, you can put it in envelopes or biscuit tins for a specific purpose, like "this is for rent, this is to go on the electric meter...")
4. Hope that a faulty payment terminal/website doesn't authorise then fail to debit your account, and you have to wait days for the authorisation to fall off
5. Not be in a foreign country (so no good for tourists who are already here and find their cards are a pain)

 

[Recessio]

My foreign family members found that their (otherwise valid) Visa and Apple Pay wouldn't work the Oyster gatelines, plus we had two foreign teenagers with us, last autumn. An alternative payment method was absolutely needed for them.

On top of that, there are many people who want to watch their spending, and for whom a regular "contactless debit card" makes it impossible to really track and regulate that, so may choose to use prepaid payment cards or cash.

May I ask which country their Visa and Apple Pay banks are from? I often have to help organise international visitors get to and from London and airports as part of my job - if there's a certain country that doesn't work, that would be useful advice to know about in advance, if possible.

I remember an American visitor used their Apple Pay, it worked but they got charged an extra non-USD currency conversion fee on every journey, which quickly added up over a weeks journeys!

 

[Ze Random One]

May I ask which country their Visa and Apple Pay banks are from? I often have to help organise international visitors get to and from London and airports as part of my job - if there's a certain country that doesn't work, that would be useful advice to know about in advance, if possible.

I remember an American visitor used their Apple Pay, it worked but they got charged an extra non-USD currency conversion fee on every journey, which quickly added up over a weeks journeys!

It was the USA, I think the issues were their bank having blocked the transactions, but many inexperienced tourists are less likely to know what to tell or check with their banks. It also wouldn't have worked for the teenagers in any case.

 

[Recessio]

It was the USA, I think the issues were their bank having blocked the transactions, but many inexperienced tourists are less likely to know what to tell or check with their banks. It also wouldn't have worked for the teenagers in any case.

Thank you. Yes, both international transactions and accompanying children are an issue with the contactless system. I guess in the future once the Oyster and Contactless zones are the same again, the answer for any of these problems will be "just get an Oyster card", which I agree is not a great experience for inexperienced tourists.

 

[CharlieSpotted]

I remember an American visitor used their Apple Pay, it worked but they got charged an extra non-USD currency conversion fee on every journey, which quickly added up over a weeks journeys!

Would that be on each journey? I would have thought the fee would be on each day as the charges are reconciled at the end of the day, right? Granted, still not ideal.

 

[MatthewHutton]

However they still require you to

1. Fill out a load of "paperwork" (including evidence of identity etc.) which may be challenging for some and almosr impossible for others
2. Have reliable Internet and an up-to-date smartphone or laptop to manage it
3. Be able to handle tallying up in your head what money is being kept aside for which purpose and not accidentally spend it/have a faulty gateline deduct more (if you have cash, you can put it in envelopes or biscuit tins for a specific purpose, like "this is for rent, this is to go on the electric meter...")
4. Hope that a faulty payment terminal/website doesn't authorise then fail to debit your account, and you have to wait days for the authorisation to fall off
5. Not be in a foreign country (so no good for tourists who are already here and find their cards are a pain)

Also lots of them probably either can’t read or have a very low reading age or have (potentially undiagnosed) learning difficulties so it is super tough for them.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Also lots of them probably either can’t read or have a very low reading age or have (potentially undiagnosed) learning difficulties so it is super tough for them.

Good point - The sort of "disadvantaged" people who are very likely going to be heavily reliant on public transport.