What happens if a driver is late?

[Magdalen Road]

For the second consecutive day, my train is late because the driver appeared 1 minute before scheduled departure (yesterday) and 1 minute after (today). Platform staff were radioing to locate the driver, opening the cab door, even checking the front carriage.
It was the same driver both days.
Presumably there are issues with public transport and connecting / inbound trains which account for much of late appearance of drivers. However what happens if a driver has recurring poor punctuality?

On this line, it's easy to get stuck behind stopping services so even a couple of minutes late can turn into 15.

 

[skyhigh]

However what happens if a driver has recurring poor punctuality?

If it's due to work reasons, such as previous workings running late, nothing at all.

If it's due to the driver just rocking up late, then they would probably be disciplined if incurring delays.

Where I am breaks are often timed for the minimum length possible. It is a requirement the break is taken in full, so if the previous train is 5 late and there's no spare time allocated I'll arrive at the next train late too. If that means it goes late then so be it. If I skimp on the break so as not to delay a train and have an incident I'll get the blame for not following the rules.

 

[Dieseldriver]

For the second consecutive day, my train is late because the driver appeared 1 minute before scheduled departure (yesterday) and 1 minute after (today). Platform staff were radioing to locate the driver, opening the cab door, even checking the front carriage.
It was the same driver both days.
Presumably there are issues with public transport and connecting / inbound trains which account for much of late appearance of drivers. However what happens if a driver has recurring poor punctuality?

On this line, it's easy to get stuck behind stopping services so even a couple of minutes late can turn into 15.

Just because a member of Traincrew is ‘late’ to work a train, it does not necessarily mean they were late for work. In fact, more often than not it’s down to issues outside of their control within their working day

 

[66787]

It could be that the rostered driver to work it is unavailable (sick, restricted, other duties etc.) - and this is the first available “spare” driver.

If they book on later than the original rostered driver, they’ll still need their booking on time and any associated walking time/prep time and mobilisation time before it is ready to depart.

If this totals X minutes and they don’t take the full allocated time, if they were to make a mistake further in their day you can bet one of the first things they’d be pulled up on is why they “rushed” over to get that train away on time.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Depends why they were late. If they were late booking on duty, its their fault.
If they were late because their previous working was late, its the railway's fault.
If they were late because they misread their workings or whatever, its their fault.
If they were late because their diagram was wrong, its the railway's fault

 

[EZJ]

Yes we have some wonderful jobs whereby you are given the exact walking time to get across a station from one service to another. The computer that spits out our diagrams doesn't know about late running.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Yes we have some wonderful jobs whereby you are given the exact walking time to get across a station from one service to another. The computer that spits out our diagrams doesn't know about late running.

It works on paper. People in offices don't know real life exists. The railway only operates from 09.00 until 16.24 on Mondays to Fridays except Bank and Public Holidays

 

[DNCharingX]

Something I've (and probably others) have always wanted to know to be fair. Thanks for asking.

I have some arguably uninformed opinions on this topic, so I'll leave it be - "blah blah walking up snail's pace head down on phone running 3L already if these delay minutes and costs were passed on to drivers we'll see a lot more interest in getting into the cab timely!!" that sort of thing. If it's not the driver's fault, that's understandable, however.

What I can say is that in the case of a signficant delay we (platform, or maybe location specific so I) have to pass the details on, whether PNB, waiting road, late running, etc... probably so it can be attributed and someone can be blamed or whatever and they can argue back and forth about it like an efficient railway does.

 

[dk1]

It's rarely explained correctly on social media by TOCs so you'll always get some sarcastic idiot blaming the driver for oversleeping

 

[father_jack]

This thread brings the sounds of keys rattling as soon as you open it.

When I see things on Twitter etc saying "the driver couldn't be bothered coming to work", or "where is he eating doughnuts", I usually say "waiting to be recruited"....

Aside from that I don't suppose anyone reading this thinks heading for a flight on the last possible train is clever.....

https://twitter.com/racingblogger/status/1700415530451001635?t=OIdP7Q6hmmuqoPVQ0HhcBA&s=19

 

[Watershed]

It works on paper. People in offices don't know real life exists. The railway only operates from 09.00 until 16.24 on Mondays to Fridays except Bank and Public Holidays

A rather unfair comment. The people who make these diagrams don't deliberately make them as tight as possible; indeed, after the software spits out a set of diagrams, planners would usually be expected to go through them to see if there's anything obviously wrong with them, or that could be made better by swapping work around between diagrams. Similarly, at most TOCs, diagrams are consulted with local union reps before coming into effect.

At the end of the day, if walking time or allowances are increased, this will almost invariably increase the number of diagrams needed. That in turn increases the establishment for a depot, which will require recruitment. Guess who has to sign off on that... the DfT. Can't exactly see them authorising millions to be spent just to make trains run a bit more punctually following disruption.

 

[CC 72100]

A rather unfair comment. The people who make these diagrams don't deliberately make them as tight as possible; indeed, after the software spits out a set of diagrams, planners would usually be expected to go through them to see if there's anything obviously wrong with them, or that could be made better by swapping work around between diagrams. Similarly, at most TOCs, diagrams are consulted with local union reps before coming into effect.

At the end of the day, if walking time or allowances are increased, this will almost invariably increase the number of diagrams needed. That in turn increases the establishment for a depot, which will require recruitment. Guess who has to sign off on that... the DfT. Can't exactly see them authorising millions to be spent just to make trains run a bit more punctually following disruption.

Quite - one could easily respond 'crew don't know budgetary limitations and maximum diagram quantity limits exist'.

The consistent running down or trivialising of any railway employee who isn't frontline crew demonstrates incredible naivety. Just because you don't understand someone else's job doesn't make it worthless or an easy target for criticism. It takes a lot of people to run a railway, and that does include people who work in offices...

 

[Falcon1200]

Yes we have some wonderful jobs whereby you are given the exact walking time to get across a station from one service to another.

If a specific walking time has been agreed with the Unions, why would that not be used for diagramming purposes?

 

[vikingdriver]

If a specific walking time has been agreed with the Unions, why would that not be used for diagramming purposes?

Common sense. Fine for booking on to walking to a train but from one train to another where the first train can be late? A little resilience to allow for late running trains isn't a bad thing!

 

[357]

My previous TOC would put minimum breaks in the middle of the evening peak. I had fun with that but other drivers wouldn't take the break and just continue driving.

Problem is, the company would never say thanks but the first time a driver does that and has an incident, the company will blame the driver. Perhaps drivers would be a little more flexible for the sake of one or two minutes if the management weren't playing the same game except with a consequence of drivers getting development plans, losing their licence, or worse.

 

[Falcon1200]

A little resilience to allow for late running trains isn't a bad thing!

Actually I agree, having had to manage repeated delays due to unfeasibly tight diagrams, but as pointed out above increasing turnround times affects the cost of running the railway.

 

[Magdalia]

It was the same driver both days.

In the days when I commuted on the GN, drivers didn't do the same job on consecutive days. Getting the same driver on consecutive days suggests to me that your train was being covered on overtime. Bear in mind that the alternative to what you describe could have been that your train was cancelled.

 

[ComUtoR]

For the second consecutive day, my train is late because the driver appeared 1 minute before scheduled departure (yesterday) and 1 minute after (today).

How late was your departure on both days ? Did you arrive at your destination on time ?

I can set up some of my cabs within about 30s and even quicker if I'm relieving another Driver. 1 minute before departure wouldn't be an issue and is often the case at my TOC

 

[306024]

It works on paper. People in offices don't know real life exists. The railway only operates from 09.00 until 16.24 on Mondays to Fridays except Bank and Public Holidays

I hope some of my former colleagues don’t read that. In my experience you couldn’t be further from the truth but hey-ho.

Computer generated diagrams do have a lot to answer for, but if you tell the computer a PNB is 30 minutes it will produce diagrams with just that. Lie to the computer and tell it a PNB is 40 minutes and you’ve instantly got 10 minutes resilience, possibly at a cost, but you’ve bought a bit of insurance.

In defence of diagrammers I know, they are burnt out by Covid, strikes, and constant meddling with the timetable and resources. I wouldn’t blame them for just issuing what the computer produces, some have barely any time to do anything else.

 

[al78]

A rather unfair comment.

Unfair but the sort of comment that is completely predictable. Forums and comments sections in the media and YouTube and other places are full of people making sweeping generalisations, they are a cheap cognitive substitute for objective rational thinking.

 

[guard1]

If only the railway had spare/standby turns...

 

[357]

I hope some of my former colleagues don’t read that. In my experience you couldn’t be further from the truth but hey-ho.

Computer generated diagrams do have a lot to answer for, but if you tell the computer a PNB is 30 minutes it will produce diagrams with just that. Lie to the computer and tell it a PNB is 40 minutes and you’ve instantly got 10 minutes resilience, possibly at a cost, but you’ve bought a bit of insurance.

In defence of diagrammers I know, they are burnt out by Covid, strikes, and constant meddling with the timetable and resources. I wouldn’t blame them for just issuing what the computer produces, some have barely any time to do anything else.

I think in this case a better understanding is needed on both sides of the "cab door".

Drivers are understandably fed up with poor diagrams and have got the impression in the post you quoted.

Train planning have a situation as outlined in your own post.

That's where forums like this are great, because grades and professions can mix and understand each other better.

 

[Neptune]

I think in this case a better understanding is needed on both sides of the "cab door".

Drivers are understandably fed up with poor diagrams and have got the impression in the post you quoted.

Train planning have a situation as outlined in your own post.

That's where forums like this are great, because grades and professions can mix and understand each other better.

A little understand would go down well here please.

I find it amazing how criticism of Traincrew planners is rife on here yet before every timetable change the union reps scrutinise the diagrams to agree them and can alter anything they deem to be a performance risk (certainly at my company and I know we’re not alone in this).

My Traincrew planning colleagues are not just a bunch of 9-5 M-F office wallers (as some people lazily assume on here) but indeed do well over their contracted hours without being asked including weekends to get the ever changing trainplan out under increasingly tighter and more constricted deadlines. Many also have an ops background so do understand the issues of tight diagrams.

 

[357]

A little understand would go down well here please.

I find it amazing how criticism of Traincrew planners is rife on here yet before every timetable change the union reps scrutinise the diagrams to agree them and can alter anything they deem to be a performance risk (certainly at my company and I know we’re not alone in this).

My Traincrew planning colleagues are not just a bunch of 9-5 M-F office wallers (as some people lazily assume on here) but indeed do well over their contracted hours without being asked including weekends to get the ever changing trainplan out under increasingly tighter and more constricted deadlines. Many also have an ops background so do understand the issues of tight diagrams.

I agree with you. Too many managers/office staff do well above their contracted hours because "otherwise it wouldn't get done". Never in a million years would train crew be expected to do unpaid overtime because "otherwise it would be cancelled".

I've often said to office based staff to just leave stuff not to get done and demonstrate how they need extra staff.

Please be assured that some traincrew, including myself, do notice when emails are sent out at 1/2 in the morning and when we get a reply to an email on a Sunday afternoon.

At my previous TOC the union did sign off on the diagrams but rarely read them. Any issues we raised would be "fixed at the next timetable change". I will however add that it's not the unions job to identify performance risk, rather it's the unions job to ensure breaks and driving hours etc are compliant.

 

[Flange Squeal]

A little understand would go down well here please.

I find it amazing how criticism of Traincrew planners is rife on here yet before every timetable change the union reps scrutinise the diagrams to agree them and can alter anything they deem to be a performance risk (certainly at my company and I know we’re not alone in this).

I can’t speak for everywhere, but at places I’ve worked it’s been legalities that get resolved but they certainly haven’t been able to just alter anything. They can however send off a list of suggestions, such as maybe ten minutes between arriving at a busy terminus/large interchange station in rush hour and taking a different train out from the opposite side of station might be quite tight, and likewise bare minimum meal breaks between two trains, but if the job is legal then they haven’t had the ability to refuse it solely because they don’t like a legal element of it.

What they can do though is get traincrew feedback once implemented though, and if there are consistent issues then this can be fed back to the planning teams for consideration of amendment (I forget the current timings, but there are set intervals between main timetable changes that my current place has allowing LTP diagram changes between the main roster changes).

For the record though, this isn’t me trying to pile all the blame onto planners - just expanding on the point of what the traincrew side may be able to do in advance across the board, as it sounds like it may vary at different places. I’ve never done the planners job so have no idea on what constraints they are put under in reality themselves, so it would be unfair for me to pass comment on them and how their role works. Interesting to read comments from people in that role though to get a glimpse into how things work though.

 

[Sly Old Fox]

I have been late for work twice in my driving career (11 years), both times due to unexpected traffic and both times also not late enough to actually delay a train. I’ve probably been quite lucky there. **** happens sometimes.

 

[chuff chuff]

I will however add that it's not the unions job to identify performance risk, rather it's the unions job to ensure breaks and driving hours etc are compliant.

This...anytime we have pointed potential risks to management side they just quote meets the criteria.

 

[Edsmith]

A rather unfair comment. The people who make these diagrams don't deliberately make them as tight as possible; indeed, after the software spits out a set of diagrams, planners would usually be expected to go through them to see if there's anything obviously wrong with them, or that could be made better by swapping work around between diagrams. Similarly, at most TOCs, diagrams are consulted with local union reps before coming into effect.

At the end of the day, if walking time or allowances are increased, this will almost invariably increase the number of diagrams needed. That in turn increases the establishment for a depot, which will require recruitment. Guess who has to sign off on that... the DfT. Can't exactly see them authorising millions to be spent just to make trains run a bit more punctually following disruption.

Unfair comment indeed, just blaming office staff who allegedly don't have a clue etc etc etc.

 

[LCC106]

I’m sure crew DO understand that there are budgetary limitations and maximum diagram quantities… therefore this needs to be addressed at Company or DFT level, surely!

 

[306024]

I think in this case a better understanding is needed on both sides of the "cab door".

Drivers are understandably fed up with poor diagrams and have got the impression in the post you quoted.

Train planning have a situation as outlined in your own post.

That's where forums like this are great, because grades and professions can mix and understand each other better.

Quite agree. I would hope many diagrammers would like to spend more time out on the real railway rather than chained to their computer, but that’s the reality for some just now.

There have certainly been examples of poor diagramming quoted in this very thread. On intensive suburban type diagrams the last thing you need is crew swapping trains with minimal allowances. Where possible better to swap the unit diagrams to keep the crew with the same train, but thats much easier with a uniform electric fleet than a varied diesel fleet.

Crew diagrams should always be constructed with performance in mind, and consideration for the individual who has to work what you have produced.