What if I barge through gates while holding a valid ticket?

[jupiter]

Really?! How often do you experience hates failing to open when you present a valid ticket?

Quite often. I understand tickets bought with a senior railcard can cause this. I know this after asking as I got completely cheesed off by my ticket continually failing to open barriers, especially when it’s busy.

 

[Peter0124]

I thought it was policy to open all gates if there's no staff around?

 

[Sonic1234]

I thought it was policy to open all gates if there's no staff around?

It is. But policy and reality can be different things.

TfL, and probably other operators, grade stations on the time the gates are active for. This is why gates get left unattended. The other thing is the wide gate only gets left open, this fools the gate software that the gates are in use so the station doesn't get a bad mark.

In the London zones, "everyone" is on Oyster and Contactless and there is little need for assistance, so staff get complacent.

 

[saismee]

Or you press the emergency release on the control unit for the gates - which if you are trapped inside a station you should do.

If you can! Not all station control units (SCU) are on the inside - Ipswich has its SCU on the outside, Norwich has its SCU nowhere near the gates. If there is no one available to help with the gates, a complaint should be filed as it's a safety risk.

 

[Haywain]

I understand tickets bought with a senior railcard can cause this.

That is by no means universal - I regularly use Senior Railcard discounted tickets which operate barriers successfully.

 

[Falcon1200]

The risk of gates not working is too high. I didn't realise the railway is so evil that they want to give passengers criminal records because of a fault with their own technology.

I also have never, ever, had to barge through gates, despite travelling thousands of miles every year by train. And are there any actual examples of passengers receiving a criminal record in these circumstances?

 

[zero]

That's because the Aztec-codes used on Interrail/Eurail passes are still not accepted by the scanners at Thameslink and Elizabeth Line stations, as well as a good number of stations outside London.

Are they accepted at any stations?

If gates are shut and there is no gateless way to exit, I don't ever bother trying and head straight to a person.

 

[The exile]

Really?! How often do you experience hates failing to open when you present a valid ticket?

Very frequently - but they’ve always been staffed. Had one swallow my ticket once - unfortunately on exit so I couldn’t even claim delay repay for the time it took to find it.

 

[styles]

The point is there shouldn't be a criminal record for it. That is beyond outrageous.

I'd be surprised if anybody had been prosecuted for barging through a gate when it had failed to open after inserting a valid ticket and being left unattended. It's such a rare combination of events, and even then, it's very unlikely to be prosecuted. The person who mentioned BTP above is the only person I've ever known to do it under the circumstances, let alone be pulled up by BTP for it; and it says a lot that BTP took no further action.

It is not criminal damage for what it's worth. That would require actually damaging the gate or rendering it temporarily or permanently unusable, which doesn't happen as the gates just close again.

Of course the bylaws should probably just be amended to say that if you try your ticket on a barrier, it fails, and there's no staff or help point, you don't commit the offence.

 

[Benjwri]

If you can! Not all station control units (SCU) are on the inside - Ipswich has its SCU on the outside, Norwich has its SCU nowhere near the gates. If there is no one available to help with the gates, a complaint should be filed as it's a safety risk.

There may not be an SCU, but there will be (a) button(s) to release either the gateline or a side gate at all stations inside the gateline. I don’t know about Ipswich but there is at Norwich. It’s a fire regulation, if they don’t have one it should be reported.

 

[Haywain]

Of course the bylaws should probably just be amended to say that if you try your ticket on a barrier, it fails, and there's no staff or help point, you don't commit the offence.

That would leave it open to just try any old ticket and then push through, so not such a good idea.

 

[styles]

That would leave it open to just try any old ticket and then push through, so not such a good idea.

Not if the other conditions I mentioned are included (no staff or help point present).

In fact it would make no difference to leaving the barriers open which is what should be happening if there are no staff or help points present.

People without a valid ticket when the barriers are open would just walk through.

 

[johncrossley]

You don't need bylaws regarding tickets if you treat it as a civil matter, just like in other countries.

 

[noddingdonkey]

Of course the bylaws should probably just be amended to say that if you try your ticket on a barrier, it fails, and there's no staff or help point, you don't commit the offence.

If we're changing the bylaws to fix the problem, why wouldn't you fix the underlying problem rather than putting the innocent ticket holding customer in that position?

Make it a byelaw requirement that barriers must be staffed at all times. If the gateline is closed and with no visible staff available (either in person or contactable on a two way video link in under 30 seconds), the station manager commits a health and safety offence.

 

[nw1]

technically an offence, but if youve done all you can to get attention, or find a member of staff, then nobody can blame you. I have had to do this a few times to avoid missing a train

It would be a particularly vindictive act to prosecute someone who jumped the barriers and who had a valid ticket, it has to be said.

 

[styles]

If we're changing the bylaws to fix the problem, why wouldn't you fix the underlying problem rather than putting the innocent ticket holding customer in that position?

Make it a byelaw requirement that barriers must be staffed at all times. If the gateline is closed and with no visible staff available (either in person or contactable on a two way video link in under 30 seconds), the station manager commits a health and safety offence.

I don't disagree with fixing the root problem.

But the bylaws create strict liability offences, so they need to be very carefully constructed such that people aren't punished for basically doing the right thing.

If a passenger can't exit through a barrier, and they speak to a staff member or use a help point but nobody is available, there should not be an offence committed. Them being strict liability means that a magistrate should give no consideration to whether the passenger's intentions were good or malicious or any other factor. That's over-the-top, and really is likely an accidental omission from the bylaws, no doubt drafted by people who didn't consider that staff might leave barriers unattended (including remote monitoring).

 

[noddingdonkey]

Indeed. But in the situation you suggest where a passenger with a valid ticket has been unable to speak to staff either in person or via a help point, then somebody has failed to do the right thing in leaving the gates closed. I was suggesting that trapping people behind a closed gateline with no assistance available should be an offence committed by the relevant manager who caused our allowed the situation to occur.

 

[styles]

Indeed. But in the situation you suggest where a passenger with a valid ticket has been unable to speak to staff either in person or via a help point, then somebody has failed to do the right thing in leaving the gates closed. I was suggesting that trapping people behind a closed gateline with no assistance available should be an offence committed by the relevant manager who caused our allowed the situation to occur.

Yes in practice I suspect the RSSB would take a very dim view of things. Whether it should be a specific offence, I don't mind either way. If it caused a safety problem, no doubt the station's managing company (the TOC, or Network Rail, e.g.) would still be culpable in court through other existing common law and statute law.

 

[barringtoncem]

I have had this happen to me especially when using a one day travelcard must recentley at Upton Park when despite using the point which just rang with no answer and went dead and there was no staff that i could see anywhere travelcards seem the most prone to failing

 

[Flying Snail]

It would be a particularly vindictive act to prosecute someone who jumped the barriers and who had a valid ticket, it has to be said.

It would be a particularly stupid person to prosecute the case in a court, a very good chance of having your arse kicked by the judge, never mind the excellent opportunity for criticising and ridiculing the rail industry in the national media.

Most of this thread is hyperbole, the chance of anyone being stopped for pushing through an unattended gateline is tiny, having any legal repercussions even less likely.

 

[rg177]

For what it's worth, from someone who used to work on gatelines, they are usually designed (to some extent) to withstand being pushed open. I'd witness it several times a day (more in many cases) and the worst outcome was you'd stick a key in the hood, press a few buttons and reset it (if fully pushed open).

Only once did I have someone decide to kick a gate open (having been told his season ticket with a start date of the following week wasn't valid) with such force that I heard something crack.

Of course not an invitation to start pushing them open - but then again leaving gatelines unattended for any period of time at my place was an extreme no-no.

 

[trainmania100]

Usually if the gate doesn't open I'll seek a member of staff, but if there's nobody around I would probably get myself through one way or another. I've paid for my ticket and therefore the right to travel, if my money has been taken and I hold a valid ticket, restricting my entry sounds unfair.

If I go to the supermarket fuel forecourt and buy a ticket, I expect the car wash to be open and working.

 

[HantsExile]

That is by no means universal - I regularly use Senior Railcard discounted tickets which operate barriers successfully.

My experience is like Jupiter's - whose location is Dorset so therefore I assume a SWR user? I live in Hampshire and SWR had a long 'blitz' on senior railcard tickets - the gate wouldn't open, you had to show the gateline attendant your senior railcard before being allowed through. More recently - no problems.

 

[Benjwri]

I find myself fairly regularly having to wait for staff to reappear on TfL when using paper tickets. I have however only had only big issue at East Putney 2ish years ago where I waited 10 minutes and no one turned up. I ended up tapping out, and TfL begrudgingly refunded my maximum fare, while telling me to wait for staff next time. Didnt acknowledge my complaint that said staff were absent.

 

[Sonic1234]

I find myself fairly regularly having to wait for staff to reappear on TfL when using paper tickets.

Don't. Press the emergency release. Only way they'll learn. Waiting around shows their actions are acceptable.

Great thing about London is there are other stations nearby usually if its embarassing to return from the one where you pressed the plunger.

 

[Benjwri]

Don't. Press the emergency release. Only way they'll learn. Waiting around shows their actions are acceptable.

Great thing about London is there are other stations nearby usually if its embarassing to return from the one where you pressed the plunger.

At the time I didn’t know about the plunger, I do now haha

 

[Railguy1]

People have often talked about an emergency release button. I’ve lived in London my whole life for 30 years and never seen one. How are members of the public meant to know about it and know where it is?

Unattended stations with closed gates pose a significant safety hazard in my opinion.

 

[jupiter]

Thanks everyone for detailed responses and a lively discussion.

 

[Bletchleyite]

At the time I didn’t know about the plunger, I do now haha

Last time I looked for this it was broken, which was disgraceful as it is a massive fire hazard. That gateline should have been left open.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Yesterday at 21:36 ==

Really?! How often do you experience hates failing to open when you present a valid ticket?

Frequently. Rarely with e-tickets to be fair, but the TVMs at Bletchley are not very good at encoding paper tickets correctly, I find they don't work maybe 50% of the time - it might of course be that one of the two works and one of the two doesn't, and I use them randomly! Though I'm fairly sure I pick the one on the left generally unless already in use, which they rarely are.

 

[thesignalman]

Retired railway staff have passes that will not operate barriers, and always have to be let through. I have twice been unable to pass through on a Sunday at Amersham as the staff are missing. Last time I tried the "Help" intercom but got no response. Using the emergency button seemed inappropriate. The only way I can get through to the platform is to wait for somebody to go through and follow them very closely, pushing through as the gates close. Its extremely embarrassing, and makes you feel like a criminal.

J